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Evil.soup
1,999 posts
74 months
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I have to be honest and say I am not a fan of this model Civic, however, when it comes to engineering such a great track weapon I couldn't care less what it looks like as long as it has function and it seems everything you do has this in mind! A real eye opener of a build and your abilities demand respect old boy, outstanding!!  Love the aviation style dash you have going on also!! 
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Kozy
2,014 posts
87 months
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purplecivicturbo said: interesting...
ill see what i can find.. i just found the EP3 does have EBD, so ill be fine using this system.. It appears it might do actually, although I can't find any solid info on it. Strange because it appears to have a prop valve according to the EPC, and also uses a conventional brake setup similar to the older non EBD cars, not the rear biased ATR setup. purplecivicturbo said: another thing i just found is that some VWs use a dual proportioning valve alongside the a diagonally isolated brake system. The 2 systems stay isolated but this valve (when the car dives under braking) biases pressure to the rear brakes.. If i pinch that system, with some modification and addition of some kind of adjuster, i see no reason why it cant be used to safey (and evenly) bias the output from the EP3 brake system... Sounds like a horrific mix of systems that will all be fighting each other, are you / would you still be using the stock prop valve mounted on the firewall or has that been scrapped? Are these VW valves the ones linked to the suspension, using the displacement to restrict the fluid pressure? Personally I think one biasing device is enough, either a single adjustable valve or an ABS controlled one. Adding several in series is only going to cause potential problems...
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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The firewall mounted one has long gone..
Im thinking, although the ABS controlls biasing, that is active. Whereas, those biasing valves are designed to increase pressure if the suspension height changes.
I found a forum where one has been successfully modified to assist the ABS in biasing the brakes. Plus my rear brakes are now over sized so will need reducing. I just need to make sure that the valve doesnt decrease the pressure below a usable limit..
Ill have to do some tests to see if it will all work..
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Kozy
2,014 posts
87 months
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purplecivicturbo said: The firewall mounted one has long gone.. That's good, I had little doubt that you would have overlooked that aspect! purplecivicturbo said: Im thinking, although the ABS controlls biasing, that is active. Whereas, those biasing valves are designed to increase pressure if the suspension height changes.
I found a forum where one has been successfully modified to assist the ABS in biasing the brakes. Plus my rear brakes are now over sized so will need reducing. I just need to make sure that the valve doesnt decrease the pressure below a usable limit..
Ill have to do some tests to see if it will all work.. In my mind, those valves are archaic, surely any changes to the weight weight distribution, ride height or spring rates would render the bias incorrect as the valving is fixed? The ABS system is far more advanced as it relates directly to the individual wheel speeds. The computer gets my vote over any mechanical system as far as biasing goes! What brake setup have you got out of interest?
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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Im not sure.. The ABS system is reactive, so it will become active when the wheel starts to slip. My idea behind the additional manual valving, obviously controlled with a dial instead of their method, is that you can delay the onset of wheel slip by changing the basic level of bias.
The valve technology is archaic but it is still very well built, and is used still on some cars.. Plus i would buy the valve new...
The ABS system has built in bias on the rear outputs, in addition to the modulation it performs..
Im using a 1" integra Type R MC/Servo, with an Audi A4 electric vacuum pump (because of the anti lag). The front brakes are 315mm 4 piston wilwoods and the rears are 280mm with OEM calipers. But i obviously have the 4wd system and general weight distribution of the car changed.
What im simply trying to do is run additional restriction on the rear brakes, but this is based on the fact that my rear brakes are much bigger than the OEM ones, therefore i need to reduce the pressure anyway.
As i said, the valves can still be bought so i might do a bit more research, maybe register on the forum and speak to the chap that has done it already and then maybe bite the bullet and buy one to test..
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Kozy
2,014 posts
87 months
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purplecivicturbo said: Im not sure.. The ABS system is reactive, so it will become active when the wheel starts to slip. My idea behind the additional manual valving, obviously controlled with a dial instead of their method, is that you can delay the onset of wheel slip by changing the basic level of bias. OK I get where you are coming from, but that is the purpose of EBD is it not? According to an SAE paper I purchased on the subject, the extra control logic over the general ABS protocol dictates the rear line pressure constantly according to the difference in the wheel accelerations between the front and rear axles, not just when the rear wheels begin to slip as with regular ABS. ABS might be reactive but EBD certainly sounds more active. The idea is to overbrake the rear axle (as the ATR does) and afford full biasing duties to the modulator in the absence of any fixed mechanical valve, the modulator will assign correct pressure no matter what load, acceleration or road conditions prevail. With an underbraked rear axle you could have no rear pressure control at all and still be front biased up to around .6G, which obviously wastes potential. I can send you the paper to have a read if it would be of interest?
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davepoth
19,903 posts
68 months
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Kozy said: OK I get where you are coming from, but that is the purpose of EBD is it not? According to an SAE paper I purchased on the subject, the extra control logic over the general ABS protocol dictates the rear line pressure constantly according to the difference in the wheel accelerations between the front and rear axles, not just when the rear wheels begin to slip as with regular ABS. ABS might be reactive but EBD certainly sounds more active.
The idea is to overbrake the rear axle (as the ATR does) and afford full biasing duties to the modulator in the absence of any fixed mechanical valve, the modulator will assign correct pressure no matter what load, acceleration or road conditions prevail. With an underbraked rear axle you could have no rear pressure control at all and still be front biased up to around .6G, which obviously wastes potential.
I can send you the paper to have a read if it would be of interest?
I think someone copied the relevant bit of the paper onto Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_brakeforce...
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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Kozy said: OK I get where you are coming from, but that is the purpose of EBD is it not? According to an SAE paper I purchased on the subject, the extra control logic over the general ABS protocol dictates the rear line pressure constantly according to the difference in the wheel accelerations between the front and rear axles, not just when the rear wheels begin to slip as with regular ABS. ABS might be reactive but EBD certainly sounds more active.
The idea is to overbrake the rear axle (as the ATR does) and afford full biasing duties to the modulator in the absence of any fixed mechanical valve, the modulator will assign correct pressure no matter what load, acceleration or road conditions prevail. With an underbraked rear axle you could have no rear pressure control at all and still be front biased up to around .6G, which obviously wastes potential.
I can send you the paper to have a read if it would be of interest?
I would love to have a read if you dont mind... What im thinking is that the abs sensors and therefore the abs can only detect wheel speed. They cant detect torque, so the abs and EBD will only take effect as the brakes start to lock up. My reason for additional bias strictly to balance the actual brake force. ABS and EBD are designed to work when the wheel speeds themselves start to differ... Ill PM you my email address, thanks very much!
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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Here is my latest project.. Received the parts today, im busy with a project for someone else, but i couldnt resist quickly assemblng it.. all the text and graphics are backlit the same as the dash.. sorry for the poor pictures..   
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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Little tiny update. Ive been really busy building a project up for somebody. Unfortunately ive failed on the deadline which im a bit gutted about.. Last night, whilst eating my tea lol, i assembled my steering wheel controls (should have seen the looks the wife was giving me)..  The white rectangle is actually the 4x 7 segment displays. For some reason its reflected perfectly white.. This is a multifunction screen which will show speed / current lap time / miles till empty .etc  Really sorry about the bad picture, the camera doesnt like dark and light in the same image..
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P I Staker
2,315 posts
25 months
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Very cool. 
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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Time for an update.. Its been a little while Recently i have been very busy developing a new product. This is an extension of the coil on plug interface i have made which also allows the dizzy to be completely removed and replaced by the AEM EPM.  (leds represent spark outputs)  Showing emulated tachometer drive output  Okay my car.. Not a huge amount, apart from still waiting on parts to turn up. The passenger side rear wheel arch is now attached, and ive put a layer of fibreglass on the back to force it to retain the curve which the body has put on it. Ill be removing it and adding more reenforcement and using filler to make it smooth. Because of chassis flex, i wont be attempting to make them look permanent but they will look like perfect bolt ons. The drivers side was done tonight, under the watchful eyes of garrett..   Also had some time to suss out the rear diff control solution.. I stripped the diff down and removed all the hydraulics. Then i identified the 2 oil control orifices. I have drilled and tapped one for a blanking screw, the second i have drilled through to from outside and designed a plug i need to have turned. This will now allow me to supply oil externally..   
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Nellist
125 posts
48 months
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Just spent a while reading through this thread, fantastic build and top notch engineering! You sir, have my utmost respect. Look forward to seeing this completed, I demand some in car footage of its first proper shakedown  haha
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Agoogy
6,499 posts
117 months
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Do you have children? Aside from the obvious talent, I'm struggling to see how you hold down a job and a marriage whilst creating stuff like this.... so very impressed... Keep the pics coming
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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Lol thanks chaps..
Im looking forward to seeing the shakedown too.. There is most likely going to be alot of fault finding and debugging before it even hits the road..
No i dont have children at the moment, Im only 25 so i thought i may as well do this whilst i have the energy to do long days lol
most days im up at 5:15, gym, work for 7:00, till 17:00, work on my business / car stuff, wife time, bed, but sometimes ill be up till about 2:00 ish working on the computer for various things... Its working at the moment, but I honestly dont think i could manage it with children..
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Max_Torque
4,812 posts
86 months
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Agoogy
6,499 posts
117 months
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purplecivicturbo said: No i dont have children at the moment, Im only 25 so i thought i may as well do this whilst i have the energy to do long days lol
most days im up at 5:15, gym, work for 7:00, till 17:00, work on my business / car stuff, wife time, bed, but sometimes ill be up till about 2:00 ish working on the computer for various things... Its working at the moment, but I honestly dont think i could manage it with children.. ahh I see now...no kids, no chores AND no sleep... 
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Disco You
1,725 posts
49 months
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I love what you are doing, and your dog.
In fact, can we see more of the dog please?
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purplecivicturbo
Original Poster
137 posts
48 months
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Thats rather interesting information on the Moog valves.. wish i could afford it lol..
To be honest, its only a CRV rear diff anyway.. Im using a skyline R32 ATTESA unit to actuate it.. Need to make my own computer though. Plus as this is a much larger cylinder than the skyline, i need alot lower pressure..
Yes thats true, no kids and no sleep lol. BUt i have my chores to do, were decorating the house and landscaping the garden at the moment so im rather busy ha.
Ill get some more pictures of Garrett, i dont want to let it go to his head though..
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