2002 Supercharged EP3 Civic Type R

[Butter Face]

Wow! Thanks for posting that Dan!

Can you ask him about his fuel setup? Is he running the standard fuel rail modified for a return system? What pump is he using?

Looks like a super clean install!

[Toilet Duck]

chuntington101 said:

Toilet Duck said:

DanielSan said:

TheJimi said:

Martin_Hx said:

Toilet Duck said:

I'm curious as I have an Ariel Atom and with the latest factory map they supposedly run 310bhp without additional cooling.

That's because it has no bodywork!

Looking good Butter, i bet you cant wait to get it all finished/sorted to give it a proper run out

What tyres are you using?

Presumably the car being so light will also help with engine loads?

The supercharger on the Atom is similar to or is the Jackson Racing charger which bolts straight onto where the inlet manifold should be isn't it?

The Jackson chargers are very rarely if ever intercooler and regularly run a reliable 280-330bhp.

Yes, the Atom uses Jackson Racing chargers bolted direct to the intake. Why don't they need intercooling like the OP's set up? The factory do a 350bhp upgrade that does require an intercooler, but if I could get circa 330bhp aftermarket without needing to go down the intercooler route I would be very interested

Mr Butter Face, apologies for hijacking your thread good sir

350bhp is about he most you can get out the m62 blower. You might push closer to 400 but intake temps are going to be going up and up at that point. would need the larger and more efficient TVS1320 or bigger at that point.

The Rotex that the TTS kit uses can go to about 500bhp in the current location or over 650bhp is the race location (where AC comp sits - you can fit the bigger blower there).

They are totally different ways of makin boost and the delivery will be different.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference between the Jackson Racing "type" of supercharger and the Rotex/TTS "type" of supercharger, and in what way is the delivery different?

The JR supercharger on my Atom is belt driven off the crank, I assumed all superchargers are driven this way but now I'm starting to wonder if I'm wrong? From the above it seems that the JR can go to 350bhp plus without intercooling/charge cooling, but the TTS/Rotex superchargers can run a lot higher bhp but require intercooling/charge cooling regardless of what power they make due to heat soak/high inlet temps? Surely they aren't driven by the exhaust gas (which would account for increase temps), as that would be a turbo charger, or am I being thick

Butter Face, apologies yet again if you feel like I'm hijacking/derailing your thread, I'll start another one somewhere else on the inner workings of superchargers if you so wish, please just say

[Butter Face]

No worries mate, I quite like the questions and stuff, I looked at all of this stuff when I started.

Basically the JR is a screw type (I think) and the Rotrex is a Centrifugal (like a turbo) so they work differently (although they're both driven from the drivebelt as you state)

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tu...

So they do the same, but differently. I think the Screw type make boost a lot quicker, with no 'lag' Whereas the centrifugal one 'spools up' like a turbo.

That's my (limited) understanding

[chuntington101]

Butter Face said:

No worries mate, I quite like the questions and stuff, I looked at all of this stuff when I started.

Basically the JR is a screw type (I think) and the Rotrex is a Centrifugal (like a turbo) so they work differently (although they're both driven from the drivebelt as you state)

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tu...

So they do the same, but differently. I think the Screw type make boost a lot quicker, with no 'lag' Whereas the centrifugal one 'spools up' like a turbo.

That's my (limited) understanding

You got it! JR kits uses a eaton blower (m62 I believe). These are a screw type and move a fixed volume of air per revolution. The revs of the blower is determined but the pulley ratio to the crank. These have NO internal compression as are basically just air pumps. Inefficient compared to the more modern TVS units also by eaton. This type of supercharger will deliver boost pretty much from tickover. However tend to fall over boost higher up the RPM band. This give you bags of torque down low.

The Rotex is a centripetal compressor, as said above, basically a crank driven compressor from a turbo. These have internal compression. They deliver more boost the faster you spin them so you tend to get higher boost as revs climb (until you hit the limits of the compressor). These blowers are a lot softer on engines.

[Dan_The_Man]

Butter Face said:

Wow! Thanks for posting that Dan!

Can you ask him about his fuel setup? Is he running the standard fuel rail modified for a return system? What pump is he using?

Looks like a super clean install!

Modified fuel rail with ID 1000cc Injectors, have some bedtime reading:

http://civictype-r.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&...

[Butter Face]

You legend! Found exactly what I was after on page 5!!

[wc98]

Butter Face said:

You legend! Found exactly what I was after on page 5!!

if he is THE dan the man, then he really is a legend . great car and thread by the way.

[Toilet Duck]

chuntington101 said:

Butter Face said:

No worries mate, I quite like the questions and stuff, I looked at all of this stuff when I started.

Basically the JR is a screw type (I think) and the Rotrex is a Centrifugal (like a turbo) so they work differently (although they're both driven from the drivebelt as you state)

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tu...

So they do the same, but differently. I think the Screw type make boost a lot quicker, with no 'lag' Whereas the centrifugal one 'spools up' like a turbo.

That's my (limited) understanding

You got it! JR kits uses a eaton blower (m62 I believe). These are a screw type and move a fixed volume of air per revolution. The revs of the blower is determined but the pulley ratio to the crank. These have NO internal compression as are basically just air pumps. Inefficient compared to the more modern TVS units also by eaton. This type of supercharger will deliver boost pretty much from tickover. However tend to fall over boost higher up the RPM band. This give you bags of torque down low.

The Rotex is a centripetal compressor, as said above, basically a crank driven compressor from a turbo. These have internal compression. They deliver more boost the faster you spin them so you tend to get higher boost as revs climb (until you hit the limits of the compressor). These blowers are a lot softer on engines.

Thanks both of you gents, much appreciate the info!

That's a good link Butter Face, makes more sense to me now. The JR one on my K20 is indeed very linear, instant torque from tickover. I didn't realise that this type of supercharger doesn't actually compress the air, but I assume this is why the inlet temps aren't so much of an issue (no heat generated from compressing the air inside the charger).

Watching the this thread with interest, learnt a lot so far. Carry on your pioneering work please

[Butter Face]

Just to nick the picture from DTM's brothers build, this is what's piqued my interest..



That's a standard fuel rail (which is the only thing the that will fit in between the charger and inlet plenum) modified to have a return plumbed in which is exactly what I need. Not sure whether to do it like above or to modify the rail further by having a line in and one end and out the other (better fuel flow along the length of the rail is my thought)

I've sent the picture to my man doing the work for me to see what he thinks. Either way I won't be using any of those shiny shiny AN fittings, too expensive for me

[Butter Face]

First few bits are finally in my hands.

Rising rate FPR



300l/ph fuel pump



Should have th modified rail back later today (hopefully)

[Butter Face]

Modified OEM rail back (a Non-OEM won't fit with the location of the charger)

Basically had the fuel dampner removed and an 8mm return added, runs alongside the inlet and will connect to the FPR and then onto a return to the tank.

Painted with some gloss black for the bling.




Hopefully get the fitting and mapping arranged soon!

[Shadow R1]

Good one, keep us updated.

[Butter Face]

As it's the beginning of November, it was inevitable that something vitally important would fail. Today it was the heaters, got in the car last night and nothing, no blowers at all. Bugger.

Some googling lead me to believe that it was the heater resistor, it lives in a pipe behind the glovebox and ECU so with those out it was extracted.



I did a check to make sure it was that, simply running a multimeter across the two highlighted bits of solder..



No resistance = fked.

Rang around a few breakers etc and nobody could get one, so rang Honda ready to get a bum fiddling!

Luckily the parts guy was very helpful, told me that the 3 Door Civics have a different part number to the 5 Door cars, the part is exactly the same but with a different part number. Result = £20 cheaper!



So it's all working, a few hours with a 10mm socket, 8mm socket and a phillips screwdriver and we're winter ready again!

[Butter Face]

So the fuel system is progressing nicely, the pump is just being fitted now. Waiting for that to be done.

The FPR is in place and the fuel line is run from back to front now in readiness for the fuel rail and pump to be fitted.

I need to replace the blue vacumn hose and the filter is looking pretty naff now too!

[Butter Face]

More bits to add on.

Rocker cover gasket is leaking, got a genuine Honda one to fit this time around. Yellow vacumn hose and the FPR bracket painted also.



Got a nice K&N to replace the S2000 one too.



Should be starting the fit on the fuel rail tonight too!!

[hondafanatic]

Epic effort...I kept mine N/A but kinda wished I went your route.

Did you intend to spend this much or are you like I was and I just never dared to add it up?

[Butter Face]

It just kind of started and hasn't stopped

In the grand scheme of things I haven't spent that much really. I could have just bought a kit from TTS but I couldn't justify spending that, I'm still in for less money than just buying a bolt on kit so I think I'm doing ok.

[hondafanatic]

Butter Face said:

It just kind of started and hasn't stopped

In the grand scheme of things I haven't spent that much really. I could have just bought a kit from TTS but I couldn't justify spending that, I'm still in for less money than just buying a bolt on kit so I think I'm doing ok.

That's impressive to me... I can manage an oil change but I have to pay someone to do everything else...I got up to about £6k and then stopped adding up...but kept going.

[Butter Face]

I do little bits myself but luckily I have a good friend who likes getting stuck in and helping me

I don't mind paying for professional help for stuff we can't do like mapping etc.

[Butter Face]

Work is pretty quiet so I disappeared for 20 mins and fitted the bits back on.

K&N looks much neater and fits better than the S2000 one.

I think I need to start replacing some of the rust 10mm bolts. Off to ebay for some nice stainless ones I think!