Ferrari F430 Spider
Discussion
Can anyone reading this thread help me with an x-ray service of a cast aluminum brake caliper? I believe this service falls within the NDT banner.
It is not for the purposes of safety evaluation but for me to determine the location of internal voids so I can bore a new hole in an appropriate position.
It is not for the purposes of safety evaluation but for me to determine the location of internal voids so I can bore a new hole in an appropriate position.
I've painted the previously prepared RH sill area and once dry, applied Dinitrol wax to all of the Rivnuts.
The scuttle trim and bonnet brackets are back from paint. I went for durable two pack product that is supposedly a lot harder wearing than regular paint. I forget its name now. Of course I've also replaced the factory flanged bolts with stainless.
Braking system
New front calipers: LaFerrari/Speciale.
‘If we’d kept the Italia’s brake technology but wanted the performance we have on the Speciale, the system would have weighed 30% more,’ explains Fedeli. ‘But we have a new generation of discs with a higher silicon content, hybrid pads from Brembo, plus new calipers, which are smaller and lighter, but cool in a very?efficient way so we can take 30-40% more thermal energy into the system and still dissipate the heat. Ferrari.
Interestingly, the pads are 20% smaller than a 458’s to aid with heat management. Aside from pedal feel and cooling, the reason I'm interested in them is the reduced unsprung weight from the rear caliper design
The integrated EPB saves weight over the seperate hand brake caliper on the F430. I bought my calipers from http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/partige_1 - they got rather hot on track so I'll rebuild them and have them repainted.
I decided to collate brake weight information so I was better informed on the weight saving aspect of the Extrema system. At this stage I've had to make a couple of assumptions (red text), but the figures are about right.
Here's a comparison of the new calipers with some Scuderia items. The Scuderia caliper is a Brembo unit based on a design that pre-dates ceramic brakes and was subsequently modified to offer increased rigidity in the 398mm application. It has a completely open back which is where the LaFerrari/Speciale has a distinct advantage with its reinforced bridge - it is a caliper designed from the outset for the large diameter discs in use on modern supercars.
The mount spacing is different: F430/Scuderia uses 30mm. The 458 and Speciale use - I think - 225mm. Interestingly the Speciale front calipers have un-machined bosses at 42mm centres which is another Brembo standard mounting.
I will commission custom brackets for the calipers and bells for Speciale discs.
The master cylinder is different between F430/Scuderia CCM and 458/Speciale. I've bought a 458 one to examine and I'm still measuring and gathering data at this stage, but I've determined the 458 is 24mm bore and the F430 is 23mm bore. Stroke on both excluding spring compression is around 23mm.
The caliper piston sizes are significantly different between the models:
Scuderia | 458
Front: 30/34/38 | 28/32/36
Rear: 38/42 | 34/38
The quite significant reduction in volume on the 458 will lead to a more responsive pedal at the expense of outright clamping force.
I also undertook a bit of research into pads and there is quite a bit of commonality.
Ferrari diagnostics
I wanted to perform the diagnostics on the car before I went back to Ed for a clutch setup, mainly because I enjoy it, but also I didn't want to have it transported when I still didn't know if the engine ECUs would work with the Scuderia TCU - as that's a round trip and a load of organisation for no real gain, so I decided to investigate what options are out there to suit an advanced hobbyist. My requirements were to be able to read, clear, and view data from all modules in the car. Advanced service functions such as actuator setup, self learn, and bleeding etc. would be a bonus.
I'll start by stating the obvious (or not): there is no real substitute for an SD3. I found there are some pretty decent professional grade alternatives out there such as Leonardo (Voicey uses this) but the cost is prohibitive for hobby work (£20k purchase, £5k subscription). I found a more reasonably priced alternative in the states - Auto Enginuity - but they force you to buy a whole European expansion pack even if you just want Ferrari so the total amounts to over £3k, which for these cars is still not really that bad given it performs all of the service functions in addition to diag. There is a Texa equivalent that does the same but I've heard mixed reports.
I continued and looked at all of the mid-range hand-held readers on the market then stumbled across Autel. I noticed that their August 2016 software update included Ferrari and was available on their cheaper unit called the MaxiSys Mini. These can go for quite a bit under £1k on eBay which makes them great value.
It covers a lot of models but I'm really only interested in these!
It performs actuator calibration and bleeding operations but I am using it for diagnosis. Their more expensive MaxiSys Pro at £1800 has fully fledged service functions like self learn etc.
Scuderia electronics research – Part 7
Now I had some diagnostic capability I could get on with the most important outstanding task: finish the SuperFast 2 conversion!
Testing | ABS module (NFR)| Pass
First on to the ABS module and success! My wiring changes are all correct. The C1435 is to be expected and required whenever an ABS or yaw sensor are replaced, or both in my case.
Testing | Yaw sensor | Pass
I already knew the yaw sensor was OK as an error would be reported in the NFR, but I thought I'd double check by viewing the live data on the NFR. The first two rows show the NFR interpreting the output signals as the car going backwards and sideways (later 2 = horizontal) which demonstrates precisely why a calibration routine must be run.
Testing | Steering wheel (NVO) | Pass
The 599 GTO wheel node is operational and not reporting errors at this stage, and the start button is triggering the start relay.
Out of interest I tested with my F430 steering wheel but it does not work:
Testing | Suspension module (NCS) | Pass
Previous errors removed now Scuderia ABS installed.
Testing | E-Diff module | Pass
Previous errors removed now Scuderia ABS installed.
Testing | Instrument cluster (NQS) | Pass
Previous errors removed now Scuderia ABS installed but brake failure recorded. I expect this because there's no brake fluid and CST is disabled until the calibration routines are run. The previous E-Diff disabled message has gone.
Testing | SuperFast 2 TCU (NCR) | Pass
This is the big one. To recap the Scuderia TCU previously would not allow a DEIS (301 self lean) in my car because of CAN bus and yaw sensor errors, both of which I put down to the F430 ABS module and analogue yaw sensor. I can report that both errors are now gone and the TCU is talking to the ABS module. This is great progress.
From the conversion perspective my next steps are to have the car transported back to Christian Lewis for a DEIS and steering & yaw sensor calibration, then go for an engine start - which is the real test. Before I do that I'm going to finish the brakes, front radiator cages, and interior.
The scuttle trim and bonnet brackets are back from paint. I went for durable two pack product that is supposedly a lot harder wearing than regular paint. I forget its name now. Of course I've also replaced the factory flanged bolts with stainless.
Braking system
New front calipers: LaFerrari/Speciale.
‘If we’d kept the Italia’s brake technology but wanted the performance we have on the Speciale, the system would have weighed 30% more,’ explains Fedeli. ‘But we have a new generation of discs with a higher silicon content, hybrid pads from Brembo, plus new calipers, which are smaller and lighter, but cool in a very?efficient way so we can take 30-40% more thermal energy into the system and still dissipate the heat. Ferrari.
Interestingly, the pads are 20% smaller than a 458’s to aid with heat management. Aside from pedal feel and cooling, the reason I'm interested in them is the reduced unsprung weight from the rear caliper design
The integrated EPB saves weight over the seperate hand brake caliper on the F430. I bought my calipers from http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/partige_1 - they got rather hot on track so I'll rebuild them and have them repainted.
I decided to collate brake weight information so I was better informed on the weight saving aspect of the Extrema system. At this stage I've had to make a couple of assumptions (red text), but the figures are about right.
Here's a comparison of the new calipers with some Scuderia items. The Scuderia caliper is a Brembo unit based on a design that pre-dates ceramic brakes and was subsequently modified to offer increased rigidity in the 398mm application. It has a completely open back which is where the LaFerrari/Speciale has a distinct advantage with its reinforced bridge - it is a caliper designed from the outset for the large diameter discs in use on modern supercars.
The mount spacing is different: F430/Scuderia uses 30mm. The 458 and Speciale use - I think - 225mm. Interestingly the Speciale front calipers have un-machined bosses at 42mm centres which is another Brembo standard mounting.
I will commission custom brackets for the calipers and bells for Speciale discs.
The master cylinder is different between F430/Scuderia CCM and 458/Speciale. I've bought a 458 one to examine and I'm still measuring and gathering data at this stage, but I've determined the 458 is 24mm bore and the F430 is 23mm bore. Stroke on both excluding spring compression is around 23mm.
The caliper piston sizes are significantly different between the models:
Scuderia | 458
Front: 30/34/38 | 28/32/36
Rear: 38/42 | 34/38
The quite significant reduction in volume on the 458 will lead to a more responsive pedal at the expense of outright clamping force.
I also undertook a bit of research into pads and there is quite a bit of commonality.
Ferrari diagnostics
I wanted to perform the diagnostics on the car before I went back to Ed for a clutch setup, mainly because I enjoy it, but also I didn't want to have it transported when I still didn't know if the engine ECUs would work with the Scuderia TCU - as that's a round trip and a load of organisation for no real gain, so I decided to investigate what options are out there to suit an advanced hobbyist. My requirements were to be able to read, clear, and view data from all modules in the car. Advanced service functions such as actuator setup, self learn, and bleeding etc. would be a bonus.
I'll start by stating the obvious (or not): there is no real substitute for an SD3. I found there are some pretty decent professional grade alternatives out there such as Leonardo (Voicey uses this) but the cost is prohibitive for hobby work (£20k purchase, £5k subscription). I found a more reasonably priced alternative in the states - Auto Enginuity - but they force you to buy a whole European expansion pack even if you just want Ferrari so the total amounts to over £3k, which for these cars is still not really that bad given it performs all of the service functions in addition to diag. There is a Texa equivalent that does the same but I've heard mixed reports.
I continued and looked at all of the mid-range hand-held readers on the market then stumbled across Autel. I noticed that their August 2016 software update included Ferrari and was available on their cheaper unit called the MaxiSys Mini. These can go for quite a bit under £1k on eBay which makes them great value.
It covers a lot of models but I'm really only interested in these!
It performs actuator calibration and bleeding operations but I am using it for diagnosis. Their more expensive MaxiSys Pro at £1800 has fully fledged service functions like self learn etc.
Scuderia electronics research – Part 7
Now I had some diagnostic capability I could get on with the most important outstanding task: finish the SuperFast 2 conversion!
Testing | ABS module (NFR)| Pass
First on to the ABS module and success! My wiring changes are all correct. The C1435 is to be expected and required whenever an ABS or yaw sensor are replaced, or both in my case.
Testing | Yaw sensor | Pass
I already knew the yaw sensor was OK as an error would be reported in the NFR, but I thought I'd double check by viewing the live data on the NFR. The first two rows show the NFR interpreting the output signals as the car going backwards and sideways (later 2 = horizontal) which demonstrates precisely why a calibration routine must be run.
Testing | Steering wheel (NVO) | Pass
The 599 GTO wheel node is operational and not reporting errors at this stage, and the start button is triggering the start relay.
Out of interest I tested with my F430 steering wheel but it does not work:
Testing | Suspension module (NCS) | Pass
Previous errors removed now Scuderia ABS installed.
Testing | E-Diff module | Pass
Previous errors removed now Scuderia ABS installed.
Testing | Instrument cluster (NQS) | Pass
Previous errors removed now Scuderia ABS installed but brake failure recorded. I expect this because there's no brake fluid and CST is disabled until the calibration routines are run. The previous E-Diff disabled message has gone.
Testing | SuperFast 2 TCU (NCR) | Pass
This is the big one. To recap the Scuderia TCU previously would not allow a DEIS (301 self lean) in my car because of CAN bus and yaw sensor errors, both of which I put down to the F430 ABS module and analogue yaw sensor. I can report that both errors are now gone and the TCU is talking to the ABS module. This is great progress.
From the conversion perspective my next steps are to have the car transported back to Christian Lewis for a DEIS and steering & yaw sensor calibration, then go for an engine start - which is the real test. Before I do that I'm going to finish the brakes, front radiator cages, and interior.
Thanks again.
hyphen said:
Is the long term plan to always keep it a hobby, or eventually make it a full time occupation somehow?
My OH thinks I should start a business. The routine service stuff bores me now but we're both quite interested in classics at the moment so it would be good to work on restoring and modernising older cars, much like the approach I'm taking with the Fiesta. I work too slowly to make decent money out of it but quality of life would be better than a relatively high stress city job.GreatGranny said:
...Question I'm sure you have been asked lots of times, when this is done will you continue with the Fezza?
Yes The one thing I like most of all with this whole car/thread is that you've just decided to do what YOU want to do with your car, made even better with the fact you've decided to modify and improve a Ferrari. Far too many owners of cars like this think about what the next owner will want on the car and are afraid to personalise it, 911 owners here seem to be the same. Whereas in the US for example this sort of thing is celebrated and seen as a nice bonus on a clean well looked after car.
Your work is amazing Mark (?), I wouldn't hesitate to give you a car to restore / modernise etc (if I could afford your services!).
I hope you make a choice that is right for you / family.
But ... When is the car going to be back together so you can drive the bloody thing, you must have covered zero miles in this new one?
I hope you make a choice that is right for you / family.
But ... When is the car going to be back together so you can drive the bloody thing, you must have covered zero miles in this new one?
DanielSan said:
The one thing I like most of all with this whole car/thread is that you've just decided to do what YOU want to do with your car, made even better with the fact you've decided to modify and improve a Ferrari. Far too many owners of cars like this think about what the next owner will want on the car and are afraid to personalise it, 911 owners here seem to be the same. Whereas in the US for example this sort of thing is celebrated and seen as a nice bonus on a clean well looked after car.
Thanks, I couldn't do it any other way. I've noticed the US definitely seems more car friendly overall than we are over here now, aside from us enthusiasts of course.Trexthedinosaur said:
Your work is amazing Mark (?), I wouldn't hesitate to give you a car to restore / modernise etc (if I could afford your services!).
I hope you make a choice that is right for you / family.
But ... When is the car going to be back together so you can drive the bloody thing, you must have covered zero miles in this new one?
Cheers. Yep - this has been off the road longer than I wanted, however back in July when the original F1 system developed a problem I had a choice: either pay to replace the TCU with another standard one or buy the Scuderia TCU and have the gearbox and F1 system fitted, which I'd already bought. I knew the risks of the conversion from prior research but still wanted to go that way. The risks did materialise hence the recent fitment of the other Scuderia modules and associated loom changes. I hope you make a choice that is right for you / family.
But ... When is the car going to be back together so you can drive the bloody thing, you must have covered zero miles in this new one?
Now we're in winter I wouldn't have used the car much anyway so I'm taking the opportunity to do pretty much everything else I had planned for the car next year.
It will be back on the road before next summer.
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