Ferrari F430 Spider

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Discussion

neilbauer

2,467 posts

182 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
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Bookmarked and I feel another legend thread biggrin

mwstewart

Original Poster:

7,554 posts

187 months

Saturday 4th October 2014
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Some routine and preventative maintenance this afternoon.

My car had the 'early type' wheel centres so I ordered a set of the 'new type', which are a darker yellow that is essentially Giallo Moderna, which is a better match for my rev counter and Ferrari bdages.


Fitted.


Whilst renewing the brake fluid I wanted to address another potential problem area which is the distribution block for the clutch slave cylinder. The OEM part can suffer hairline cracks which are usually caused by over tightening of the bleed union, but sometimes they can appear on their own. I had also read online that the OEM part was plastic.

To pre-empt any potential problems I bought a Hill Engineering uprated version, which is billet aluminium part, anodised black. Hill were great as usual and worked with me to pin down a postal service that ensured it was with me today - I onlt ordered yesterday, late morning. Thanks Diane!


With a duvet protecting the rear of the car, I leaned over and managed to replace the part from above with the engine bay lid open. It took around 25 minutes to do. The securing hex on the rearmost union was slightly rounded suggesting that the part may have been replaced before, so I may replace that line in due course.


Here's the original part: it's alloy, albeit of a lower grade than the Hill part, and it can be noted that for some reason the bleed union has been milled short which obviously will contribute to a weakness should the bleed nipple be over-tightened.


On to renewing the brake/clutch fluid. I use a pressure bleeder as it makes the operation so much simpler.


Calipers are fairly common-or-garden Brembo items with a bleed nipple for each side.


All done. The old fluid in the calipers was very clean so in fairness to Ferrari the fluid had been changed at some point, and it was just the clutch aspect which was overlooked.

SeanEP3

66 posts

176 months

Saturday 4th October 2014
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interesting thread. thanks for sharing.

mwstewart

Original Poster:

7,554 posts

187 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
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I've done some quick temperature tests in the engine bay following fitment of the aftermarket manifolds/headers, and despite them being coated, temps are in places 50 degrees higher than with the stock manifolds in place. It's not a huge issue, but I'm not happy with it so over winter I will remove the manifolds and send them to be triple coated. I will use http://www.camcoat.com/main/coatings2.html for the work; they offer a 'RaceSpec' version which is a triple exterior coat and single internal coat - which is tried and tested in Le Mans cars - but I'm cautious of introducing any possible failure modes within the exhaust primaries, which is of course the very reason for removing the stock manifolds in the first place, so in view of that I will stick to a triple exterior coat. This should bring bay temps lower than with the very well insulated stock manifolds in place.

I did mention in a previous post that I would at some point revisit the engine bay clutch line which was knurled at the clutch distribution block end, which is the likely result of a previous clutch block change. Whilst making the line I decided to address another potential problem area: the steel hardline on manual gearbox F430's takes a rather tortuous route which exposes it to the heat of the manifold primaries without the benefit of any heat insulation whatsoever. The orange lines in the following photo illustrate this:


In view of the above my replacement line will be of a different construction and take a different route. Thankfully the master cylinder to slave cylinder line that runs the length of the car is composed of multiple pieces, and the section I want to replace is joined at a very accessible location at the front of the engine:


The hose of choice is -4 Aeroquip PTFE inner/stainless braid covering. I'm using a Banjo fitting at the clutch block end to allow the hose to pass directly downwards from the block.


I have some 'extreme' hear barrier (bottom) that is a snug fit over the -4 hose, and for maximum protection some fire sleeve (top) on top.


Here's the OEM clutch line removed (top) and my replacement (bottom).


Replacement line in situ, showing the new route. Green arrows indicate hose connections and the smaller blue arrows indicate the stainless fixings I used to secure the new line to the gear change cables.


The clutch was bled through and test. Fluid of choice is Motul RBF600


Whilst working on the clutch hydraulic system I wanted to provide some protection for the distribution block. Regardless of what type of manifolds are fitted, the block is within 50mm of the neck of the stock catalytic converter, which obviously is not coated - none of the stock system is - and also falls outside the reach of the stock heat shield. I had noticed that the clutch block can be hot to the touch after a run, which obviously isn't ideal, so my plan was to create a heat shield in a similar vein to the stock part protecting the CV boots.

'Nimbus' was my material of choice, but rather than buy the branded product I located a heat shield on eBay from a mass produced car. It's the same stuff, but brand new only cost a small amount. The part I used was from a Citroen!


A few cardboard mock-ups later I had a pattern that would work. I also fabricated a bracket from 2mm aluminium that would mount to the clutch block and utilise its mounting bolt.


Close up of bracket and shield. The shield looks a little messy here because I designed it with overlapping sections that will be held together by the sheet metal screws used to affix the assembly. I also designed the shield so that overlap join sections face away from the heat source.


Bracket in situ. Clutch bleed block still easily accessible from above, below, and directly in front.


Shield in place. This photos show how it looks much neater once clamped down to the bracket.


Engine bay view. The photo shows how the shield follows the contours of the gearbox, and also just how close the clutch block is to the cat.

JakeT

5,406 posts

119 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
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Mark Stewart, the man who makes a Ferrari better than Maranello!

Hat off, I would never have the balls to do anything on my Ferrari if I were to own one? Tyre pressures low? Better take it to the dealer for more air Pure nitrogen in the tyres.

Beedub

1,954 posts

225 months

Sunday 26th October 2014
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really nice to see the bits you don't get to usually see on these exotics :- seems like your having fun putting it to your standard...

mwstewart

Original Poster:

7,554 posts

187 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
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Wing/fender shields courtesy of Denver308 on Ferrari life. These are a high quality replica of the OEM shields.


My temporary gel badges removed and replaced with the high quality versions.


Another cosmetic detail I really like was the Cavallino Rampante ("prancing horse") that comes fitted to the optional carbon fibre fuel flap.


I'm not really a fan of the contrast of CF in the middle of a panel hence I didn't want to fit the entire accessory flap, so I tracked down a genuine Ferrari prancing horse in the correct size which I will affix to the standard fuel flap.


This weekend also heralded the start of my F430's winter hibernation which brings with it a chance for me to spend time addressing a number of the more significant potential problem areas on the model. At this point in time the car is great, but it has just hit 30k miles and this was a factor in me taking the decision to spend time and money pre-empting any issues so that I can - hopefully - enjoy the car for the next few summer periods to come. My winter list in priority order is:

- Replace clutch with a new OEM version, and the release/throw out bearing & flange with Hill Engineering versions;
- Triple ceramic coating on manifolds/headers;
- Replace front track rod ends with Hill Engineering versions;
- Replace all ball joints and boots with Hill Engineering versions;
- Replace all arm bushes with Superformance versions;
- Replace anti-roll/sway bar bushes and links.

Given I've already addressed the manifolds I should end up in a good position. I will carry out all the work myself.

Clutch replacement
I will document my work in case it is of use.
My plan of attack is to leave the transmission within the engine bay and simply slide it back to provide access to the bell housing and flywheel. I will support the transmission with a hoist or a transmission jack/cradle. I am quite sure I can complete the job without removing the transmission support frame.

To start I removed, in order:
- Left and right rear side panels;
- Exhaust silencer - the studs snapped which was expected;
- Airbox;
- Catalytic converter heat shields; optional but provides more visibility of the transmission;
- Transmission mount heat shield.


This provides the following clearance - right side:


Left:


Overall view. I have placed some cloth underneath the header tank to protect it.


Rear diffuser removed.


Car jacked up and under tray removed. I have this off to a pretty fine art now: 15 minutes or less.


Gear change cable ball joints disconnected from mechanism, and cable bracket removed from the gearbox with cables attached. Three of 7mm nuts.


Driveshaft CVs unbolted. 13mm 12 point nuts.


This next job was the worst so far. The E-Diff solenoid and sensor multiplugs are covered in adhesive foil-backed fiberglass heat insulation. The insulation has to be carefully cut off as it can't be removed in one piece without risk to the fragile cables underneath, so as a result one needs to be careful of many fibreglass strands which are liberated once the foil backing is cut.


The car is a pleasure to work on. Some of the trim items are flimsy as I previously noted, but the mechanicals are well laid out and there are levels of space around the components that would be a pipe dream when working on a regular vehicle.

This is as far as I got this afternoon so another update will follow soon.

Erwin1978

97 posts

145 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
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thanks for sharing, hugely interesting as usual!

Nano2nd

3,426 posts

255 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
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great thread, having recently bought a 430 coupe theres a few jobs on here i'm keen to do myself!,

how closely matched are your new shields to the new style wheels centres? mines got giallo callipers so the centres look washed out in comparison, one of my sheilds is crazed so looking to replace them all ar some point, i guess that just leaves the bonnet badge which is also the duller yellow

mwstewart

Original Poster:

7,554 posts

187 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
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Nano2nd said:
great thread, having recently bought a 430 coupe theres a few jobs on here i'm keen to do myself!,

how closely matched are your new shields to the new style wheels centres? mines got giallo callipers so the centres look washed out in comparison, one of my sheilds is crazed so looking to replace them all ar some point, i guess that just leaves the bonnet badge which is also the duller yellow
Thank you. The new shields are an almost perfect match to the new OEM wheel centres. I also need to replace my bonnet badge as it has a small stone chip on it, but I didn't know it was also changed to Giallo - thanks!

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
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To be honest, that clutch block is "miles" from the cat/exhaust by modern car terms. Typically a 10mm air gap is considered sufficient between metal parts on the engine and something like a catalyst. Also, being aluminium and bolted directly to the engine block, it cannot over heat from thermal radiation energy because the thermal path to the block is the dominant factor. In fact, you heat shield may actually INCREASE the temperature of the clutch fluid! Also, replacing the OEM metal clutch line with a nylon alternative (ok, stainless sheathed which helps) also may have the same effect.

mwstewart

Original Poster:

7,554 posts

187 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
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Max_Torque said:
To be honest, that clutch block is "miles" from the cat/exhaust by modern car terms. Typically a 10mm air gap is considered sufficient between metal parts on the engine and something like a catalyst. Also, being aluminium and bolted directly to the engine block, it cannot over heat from thermal radiation energy because the thermal path to the block is the dominant factor. In fact, you heat shield may actually INCREASE the temperature of the clutch fluid! Also, replacing the OEM metal clutch line with a nylon alternative (ok, stainless sheathed which helps) also may have the same effect.
The point about the interface with the block is very interesting. The angle I'm taking is that having experienced a fluid issue with the fliud bled off being very dark in colour, at a point in time after fitting the new manifolds, I really didn't want to take the risk that the incrased heat is detrimentally affecting the clutch. The PTFE hose and shield has solved clutch fluid overheating issues in other cars with aftermarket manifolds.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
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mwstewart said:
Max_Torque said:
To be honest, that clutch block is "miles" from the cat/exhaust by modern car terms. Typically a 10mm air gap is considered sufficient between metal parts on the engine and something like a catalyst. Also, being aluminium and bolted directly to the engine block, it cannot over heat from thermal radiation energy because the thermal path to the block is the dominant factor. In fact, you heat shield may actually INCREASE the temperature of the clutch fluid! Also, replacing the OEM metal clutch line with a nylon alternative (ok, stainless sheathed which helps) also may have the same effect.
The point about the interface with the block is very interesting. The angle I'm taking is that having experienced a fluid issue with the fliud bled off being very dark in colour, at a point in time after fitting the new manifolds, I really didn't want to take the risk that the incrased heat is detrimentally affecting the clutch. The PTFE hose and shield has solved clutch fluid overheating issues in other cars with aftermarket manifolds.
Generally speaking, clutch fluid goes black because it oxidizes and because rubber seals in the system degrade (they are "wear items" as they slide past the m/cyl & s/cyl bores as the pistons move), releasing carbon compounds into it.

mwstewart

Original Poster:

7,554 posts

187 months

Sunday 2nd November 2014
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Max_Torque said:
Generally speaking, clutch fluid goes black because it oxidizes and because rubber seals in the system degrade (they are "wear items" as they slide past the m/cyl & s/cyl bores as the pistons move), releasing carbon compounds into it.
Sure, but the seals at the gearbox end are all bright green and the bad fluid was concentrated there. The entire release bearing floats on a flange unlike a regular sealed release bearing with an internal piston:


There wasn't enough of the dirty fluid to be further up the line towards the master, which likely does have rubber type seals.

For what reason do you think the shield will increase fluid temp rather than decrease it?


Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 13:15

Steve7777

235 posts

148 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
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Awesome car and great thread but frightening to see how much preventative maintenance these things need.

mwstewart

Original Poster:

7,554 posts

187 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
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Steve7777 said:
Awesome car and great thread but frightening to see how much preventative maintenance these things need.
Thank you. They are essentially a race car for the road; the clutch diameter for example is reduced so that the powertrain can sit lower to the chassis thus lowering the CoG. The downisde is that even with the double plate clutch service intervals are anywhere between 8k and 14k for the F1 gearbox, and up to 30k for the manual - which is why I've taken the decision to change mine as a preventative measure even though it's approx £2.5k in parts.

The ball joints and manifolds are the other main issues: the manifold failiures are unacceptable as this has been happening on various Ferrari V8 models for over 20 years now! Ball joints are just another area of the car that do not suit the inclement weather here in the UK - I wouldn't want to run one of these all year round smile

smithyithy

7,192 posts

117 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
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Coker said:
Really enjoy all of your Readers' Cars topics, and the pure enthusiasm and level of geekery that us PH-types revel in.

Keep it up, on all 3 threads. Good work.
Ditto, it's so refreshing to read someone taking apart a car like this, doing work themselves, and thoroughly enjoying ownership.

Just shows that an enthusiast is always an enthusiast regardless of what they drive smile

johnfm

13,668 posts

249 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
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Great thread - but what's the point of replacing a clutch that hasn't yet exhibited signs of failure?

Unless clutch failure causes further damage to the drivetrain, why not just wait until it goes?

mwstewart

Original Poster:

7,554 posts

187 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
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smithyithy said:
Ditto, it's so refreshing to read someone taking apart a car like this, doing work themselves, and thoroughly enjoying ownership.

Just shows that an enthusiast is always an enthusiast regardless of what they drive smile
Cheers smile

johnfm said:
Great thread - but what's the point of replacing a clutch that hasn't yet exhibited signs of failure?

Unless clutch failure causes further damage to the drivetrain, why not just wait until it goes?
Thanks. 30k on the original clutch is seriously good going so I'll have to replace it at some point during my tenure anyway; I CBA with it going half way through the summer when I just want to get in and drive it, or even worse when on a big road trip somwhere, so I'm doing it now.

baccalad

220 posts

114 months

Monday 3rd November 2014
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What do you do for a living?