Ferrari F430 Spider
Discussion
Two more weight saving modifications.
16M/Scuderia Rear Undertray
For reference here's an F430 undertray.
Here's a 16M/Scuderia tray. The green arrows show the additional access panel which doubles up with the existing oil filter access panel on the F430, now equipped with NACA ducts to feed high pressure air into the lower engine bay, and out through the Scuderia's rear diffuser. The blue arrow shows the revised forward fins that blend in to the Scuderia specific rear diffuser (not pictured).
Importantly, the part is constructed from a carbon fibre type material that at half the thickness is the same strength as the F430 equivalent, which is not especially light. I understand this material was first used on the 360 Challenge Stradale undertrays.
This photo shows just how thin the 16/Scuderia tray is.
Note: Above photos are not of my parts.
Scuderia Luggage Compartment Trim
Like the standard rear diffuser the luggage compartment trim is another area of the car that is surprisingly heavy in the F430. The base needs to be reasonably sturdy for obvious reasons, but it and the rear (bulkhead) sections are made from very heavy compacted fibreboard type material.
For reference here's an F430 like mine equipped with the optional CD changer, which can be seen to the right of the tan leather wheel brace behind the rectangular carpet section topped with two black fastenings. The F430 is trimmed with black carpet.
Now on to the Scuderia type, of which there are three.
1) First, Alcantara trim. This was standard fit on the 16M and optional on the Scuderia Berlinetta (coupe).
2) Next, a Scuderia Berlinetta with optional full trim which constitutes a fully lined compartment in a durable grey fabric. Ferrari were going for a more 'technical' look with the Scuderia models.
3) Finally, the basic Scuderia Berlinetta trim which has a trimmed base and bulkhead and lightweight moulded ABS covers for protection of the wiring loom and chassis leg tops.
All of the options above are available to suit a CD changer.
I decided on the most light-weight option #3 and at the same time will ditch - well, put into storage like I am with all the other parts I remove - the CD changer. I hope the actual material of the floor and bulkhead is lighter than the F430 but I cannot be sure of that until the parts arrive. The eagle eyed will also notice Scuderia models have finishing trims in the bonnet reveal, which at some point I will add to my car.
Here are the parts I've purchased. The material sections need a hoover but I am advised everything is like new, having come from a car that's covered just 1,300Km.
I'll start to put together a table of weight savings and comparisons once I’ve had chance to weigh the relevant parts.
16M/Scuderia Rear Undertray
For reference here's an F430 undertray.
Here's a 16M/Scuderia tray. The green arrows show the additional access panel which doubles up with the existing oil filter access panel on the F430, now equipped with NACA ducts to feed high pressure air into the lower engine bay, and out through the Scuderia's rear diffuser. The blue arrow shows the revised forward fins that blend in to the Scuderia specific rear diffuser (not pictured).
Importantly, the part is constructed from a carbon fibre type material that at half the thickness is the same strength as the F430 equivalent, which is not especially light. I understand this material was first used on the 360 Challenge Stradale undertrays.
This photo shows just how thin the 16/Scuderia tray is.
Note: Above photos are not of my parts.
Scuderia Luggage Compartment Trim
Like the standard rear diffuser the luggage compartment trim is another area of the car that is surprisingly heavy in the F430. The base needs to be reasonably sturdy for obvious reasons, but it and the rear (bulkhead) sections are made from very heavy compacted fibreboard type material.
For reference here's an F430 like mine equipped with the optional CD changer, which can be seen to the right of the tan leather wheel brace behind the rectangular carpet section topped with two black fastenings. The F430 is trimmed with black carpet.
Now on to the Scuderia type, of which there are three.
1) First, Alcantara trim. This was standard fit on the 16M and optional on the Scuderia Berlinetta (coupe).
2) Next, a Scuderia Berlinetta with optional full trim which constitutes a fully lined compartment in a durable grey fabric. Ferrari were going for a more 'technical' look with the Scuderia models.
3) Finally, the basic Scuderia Berlinetta trim which has a trimmed base and bulkhead and lightweight moulded ABS covers for protection of the wiring loom and chassis leg tops.
All of the options above are available to suit a CD changer.
I decided on the most light-weight option #3 and at the same time will ditch - well, put into storage like I am with all the other parts I remove - the CD changer. I hope the actual material of the floor and bulkhead is lighter than the F430 but I cannot be sure of that until the parts arrive. The eagle eyed will also notice Scuderia models have finishing trims in the bonnet reveal, which at some point I will add to my car.
Here are the parts I've purchased. The material sections need a hoover but I am advised everything is like new, having come from a car that's covered just 1,300Km.
I'll start to put together a table of weight savings and comparisons once I’ve had chance to weigh the relevant parts.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 11:58
Another weight-saving modification and the first of many handling changes.
16M/Scuderia Front Anti-Roll Bar
The front anti-roll bar remained unchanged from the 360, to 360S, and through to the F430 Berlinetta & Spider. A unique bar was produced for the Scuderia and my expectation is that it is thinner to adjust handling, and of a light weight construction.
The front bar is too thin to be hollow and retain strength - unlike the Scuderia specific rear bar - so like the Mk2 Scuderia springs I expect it to be made from titanium. I know what to expect with Ferrari prices now and placing economies of scale aside i.e. less Scuderia’s made hence more expensive parts, the price difference between the Scuderia bar and the regular front bar is too great for a change in diameter alone, but I will confirm material in due course.
Here's a photo of a 360/360CS/F430 (Spider and Berlinetta) steel front bar, which is noticeably thicker than the Scuderia version:
16M/Scuderia Front Anti-Roll Bar
The front anti-roll bar remained unchanged from the 360, to 360S, and through to the F430 Berlinetta & Spider. A unique bar was produced for the Scuderia and my expectation is that it is thinner to adjust handling, and of a light weight construction.
The front bar is too thin to be hollow and retain strength - unlike the Scuderia specific rear bar - so like the Mk2 Scuderia springs I expect it to be made from titanium. I know what to expect with Ferrari prices now and placing economies of scale aside i.e. less Scuderia’s made hence more expensive parts, the price difference between the Scuderia bar and the regular front bar is too great for a change in diameter alone, but I will confirm material in due course.
Here's a photo of a 360/360CS/F430 (Spider and Berlinetta) steel front bar, which is noticeably thicker than the Scuderia version:
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 12:03
Can't wait - just need to sort the brakes.In continuation of my quest to build a 16M replica I have purcahsed a 16M iPod.
The 16M has an iPod Touch integrated into the dash. The iPod sits inside a plastic cartridge, which is housed within a 16M/iPod specific carbon dashboard moulding.
The Touch is a bit dated now so I will only convert my car if I can modify the cartridge and iPod interface to integrate a more up-to-date device.
The 16M has an iPod Touch integrated into the dash. The iPod sits inside a plastic cartridge, which is housed within a 16M/iPod specific carbon dashboard moulding.
The Touch is a bit dated now so I will only convert my car if I can modify the cartridge and iPod interface to integrate a more up-to-date device.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 12:05
mwstewart said:
In continuation of my quest to build a 16M replica I have purcahsed a 16M iPod.
The 16M has an iPod Touch integrated into the dash. The iPod sits inside a plastic cartridge, which is housed within a 16M/iPod specific carbon dashboard moulding.
The Touch is a bit dated now so I will only convert my car if I can modify the cartridge and iPod interface to integrate a more up-to-date device.
Happy to help you with designing and 3D printing one for you. PM me if you'd like any help.The 16M has an iPod Touch integrated into the dash. The iPod sits inside a plastic cartridge, which is housed within a 16M/iPod specific carbon dashboard moulding.
The Touch is a bit dated now so I will only convert my car if I can modify the cartridge and iPod interface to integrate a more up-to-date device.
It has been a productive week for parts gathering!
16M/Scuderia Front CCM Calipers and Pads
As I noted in a previous post the stock steel brakes are not up to the job so I wanted to upgrade. The F430 optional CCMs are at the front six piston calipers with 380mm discs and steel bells, and designed to fit behind stock wheels. Given I am upgrading, it didn't really make sense to go for F430 type when an upgraded 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge system is available. The system uses 398mm discs with aluminium bells and is advertised by Ferrari as fitting only behind genuine Scuderia or 16M wheels, which are 8J width at the front compared to 7.5J for stock and and Scuderia 'style' wheels, however this is unverified and at least one owner has the Scud brakes behind 'style' wheels.
The F430 and 16M/Scuderia calipers don't use dust seals which is a good thing for performance work as I don't think any of the manufacturers have managed to make a dust seal that withstands high heat and doesn’t crack, but the downside is that the stock aluminium pistons can suffer corrosion and will begin to stick in their bores over time. Hill Engineering manufacture high quality stainless steel pistons to replace the stock aluminium versions so I decided to track down a set of used calipers and rebuild them to better than OEM standard.
The calipers I’ve sourced are the CCM calipers from a Scuderia. They are the same on the 599, 16M, and Scuderia. As you can see, there was a pad fire in one caliper, but that doesn’t matter as I am going to have both vapour blasted and painted in Rosso Corsa with new decals underneath a coat of lacquer, then I will rebuild with new pistons, seals, and bleed nipples.
I also picked up a set of pads that have approx. 60% life left.
For all of the above I paid less than the cost of new CCM front pads! I shall enjoy rebuilding them to an improves spec. Whilst writing this update I will also document what I learnt when looking at F430 brakes, in case it helps others:
Front Calipers and Pads - 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge/599 vs F430 CCM
The F430 CCM calipers (380mmm discs) are powder coated and have Ferrari script on the outside face in a contrasting colour to the caliper – as per the steel brakes.
The outside face of the pads is semi-circular and ends close to the caliper body, the shape providing clearance for the disc bell.
The 16M/Scuderia/599 CCM calipers (398mm discs) are powder coated and can be identified by the contrasting 'Brembo Carbon Ceramic' decal underneath the Ferrari script. I originally thought the mounting offset of these calipers was unique to suit the larger 398mm discs, but I found that was not the case.
The F430 Challenge cars run 398mm discs, but the calipers are painted grey (not coated) and do not have the 'Brembo Carbon Ceramic' decal.
Pads are specific to the 398mm discs and protrude approximately 20mm from the edge of the caliper. They have a small semi-circular reveal in the middle of the lower edge for clearance to the disc bell.
The master cylinder is the same part for F430 CCM and 16M/Scuderia so I make the assumption that piston sizes and fluid volume is the same in the 6 piston calipers. I have not verified that.
Front Knuckles - 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge vs F430 CCM
As I had identified the same caliper mounting for the 599 and all F430 models the only way that the larger 398mm discs could be accommodated was either: 1) a revised knuckle with 9mm longer bosses, or 2) 9mm spacers between the knuckle and caliper. The use of spacers would work and has been proven may times but for a number of reasons it is not ideal, so the likely change would lie in the knuckle.
I already knew that the 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge had different part numbers for the front knuckle despite the suspension arms and rack position being the same as the F430, and having looked at the knuckles on my own car I could see little scope for weight reduction, so the caliper mounting had to be different. I found the following photos to satisfy myself it was the case.
F430 knuckle.
16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge front knuckle, the green arrow highlighting the longer caliper mounting bosses.
I will either purchase 16M/Scuderia knuckles or have mine modified.
16M/Scuderia Front CCM Calipers and Pads
As I noted in a previous post the stock steel brakes are not up to the job so I wanted to upgrade. The F430 optional CCMs are at the front six piston calipers with 380mm discs and steel bells, and designed to fit behind stock wheels. Given I am upgrading, it didn't really make sense to go for F430 type when an upgraded 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge system is available. The system uses 398mm discs with aluminium bells and is advertised by Ferrari as fitting only behind genuine Scuderia or 16M wheels, which are 8J width at the front compared to 7.5J for stock and and Scuderia 'style' wheels, however this is unverified and at least one owner has the Scud brakes behind 'style' wheels.
The F430 and 16M/Scuderia calipers don't use dust seals which is a good thing for performance work as I don't think any of the manufacturers have managed to make a dust seal that withstands high heat and doesn’t crack, but the downside is that the stock aluminium pistons can suffer corrosion and will begin to stick in their bores over time. Hill Engineering manufacture high quality stainless steel pistons to replace the stock aluminium versions so I decided to track down a set of used calipers and rebuild them to better than OEM standard.
The calipers I’ve sourced are the CCM calipers from a Scuderia. They are the same on the 599, 16M, and Scuderia. As you can see, there was a pad fire in one caliper, but that doesn’t matter as I am going to have both vapour blasted and painted in Rosso Corsa with new decals underneath a coat of lacquer, then I will rebuild with new pistons, seals, and bleed nipples.
I also picked up a set of pads that have approx. 60% life left.
For all of the above I paid less than the cost of new CCM front pads! I shall enjoy rebuilding them to an improves spec. Whilst writing this update I will also document what I learnt when looking at F430 brakes, in case it helps others:
Front Calipers and Pads - 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge/599 vs F430 CCM
The F430 CCM calipers (380mmm discs) are powder coated and have Ferrari script on the outside face in a contrasting colour to the caliper – as per the steel brakes.
The outside face of the pads is semi-circular and ends close to the caliper body, the shape providing clearance for the disc bell.
The 16M/Scuderia/599 CCM calipers (398mm discs) are powder coated and can be identified by the contrasting 'Brembo Carbon Ceramic' decal underneath the Ferrari script. I originally thought the mounting offset of these calipers was unique to suit the larger 398mm discs, but I found that was not the case.
The F430 Challenge cars run 398mm discs, but the calipers are painted grey (not coated) and do not have the 'Brembo Carbon Ceramic' decal.
Pads are specific to the 398mm discs and protrude approximately 20mm from the edge of the caliper. They have a small semi-circular reveal in the middle of the lower edge for clearance to the disc bell.
The master cylinder is the same part for F430 CCM and 16M/Scuderia so I make the assumption that piston sizes and fluid volume is the same in the 6 piston calipers. I have not verified that.
Front Knuckles - 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge vs F430 CCM
As I had identified the same caliper mounting for the 599 and all F430 models the only way that the larger 398mm discs could be accommodated was either: 1) a revised knuckle with 9mm longer bosses, or 2) 9mm spacers between the knuckle and caliper. The use of spacers would work and has been proven may times but for a number of reasons it is not ideal, so the likely change would lie in the knuckle.
I already knew that the 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge had different part numbers for the front knuckle despite the suspension arms and rack position being the same as the F430, and having looked at the knuckles on my own car I could see little scope for weight reduction, so the caliper mounting had to be different. I found the following photos to satisfy myself it was the case.
F430 knuckle.
16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge front knuckle, the green arrow highlighting the longer caliper mounting bosses.
I will either purchase 16M/Scuderia knuckles or have mine modified.
Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 15th March 12:24
mwstewart said:
Oh, I joined the Ferrari Owners Club at the Classic Car Show this past weekend. I'm not usually a car club type of person but joined for the track days. Are any other PHers a member?
I am neither a member, nor a Ferrari owner, but my father-in-law is both and I have done a couple of track days with him in his car. Really enjoyed them, nice bunch of people.alistair267 said:
I am neither a member, nor a Ferrari owner, but my father-in-law is both and I have done a couple of track days with him in his car. Really enjoyed them, nice bunch of people.
That's good to know - thanks!alan-87 said:
Love this, as per everyone else attention to detail is phenomenal.
I'm intrigued how you source all the parts, maybe its just my perception but I would have assumed some of these would be like rocking horse s
t to find?
Thank you. The parts are extremely thin on the ground, but I do enjoy tracking them down I'm intrigued how you source all the parts, maybe its just my perception but I would have assumed some of these would be like rocking horse s
t to find?
mwstewart said:
It has been a productive week for parts gathering!
16M/Scuderia Front CCM Calipers and Pads
As I noted in a previous post the stock steel brakes are not up to the job, so I wanted to upgrade. The F430 optional CCMs are at the front six piston calipers with 380mm discs and steel bells, and fit behind stock wheels and Scuderia 'style' wheels (7.5J width). Given I am upgrading it didn't really make sense to go for F430 type when an upgraded 16M/Scuderia system is available, which uses 398mm discs with aluminium bells. These only fit behind genuine Scuderia or 16M wheels which are 8J width at the front and light weight (the 'style' wheels are not, front or rear).
Hi Mark,16M/Scuderia Front CCM Calipers and Pads
As I noted in a previous post the stock steel brakes are not up to the job, so I wanted to upgrade. The F430 optional CCMs are at the front six piston calipers with 380mm discs and steel bells, and fit behind stock wheels and Scuderia 'style' wheels (7.5J width). Given I am upgrading it didn't really make sense to go for F430 type when an upgraded 16M/Scuderia system is available, which uses 398mm discs with aluminium bells. These only fit behind genuine Scuderia or 16M wheels which are 8J width at the front and light weight (the 'style' wheels are not, front or rear).
Edited by mwstewart on Thursday 19th November 20:13
Not sure you are totally correct regarding challenge/scud 398mm CCM's only fitting behind genuine scud wheels. (I must admit I have heard this elsewhere too!) I have challenge 398mm CCM's and calipers on my 430 with the scud 'style' wheels with no issues.
Simon
Edited by chillo on Saturday 21st November 12:30
Simon,
In view of your experience I've updated the paragraph.
Mark
In view of your experience I've updated the paragraph.
mwstewart said:
As I noted in a previous post the stock steel brakes are not up to the job so I wanted to upgrade. The F430 optional CCMs are at the front six piston calipers with 380mm discs and steel bells, and designed to fit behind stock wheels. Given I am upgrading, it didn't really make sense to go for F430 type when an upgraded 16M/Scuderia/F430 Challenge system is available. The system uses 398mm discs with aluminium bells and is advertised by Ferrari as fitting only behind genuine Scuderia or 16M wheels, which are 8J width at the front compared to 7.5J for stock and and Scuderia 'style' wheels, however this is unverified and at least one owner has the Scud brakes behind 'style' wheels.
Cheers,Mark
Hi Mark,
Here you go and further to my first post a few pics of the gold wheels (well 2 of 4) now fitted to my F430.Excuse the low winter sun and strange colour temp from fluorescent lighting but I am quite pleased with the results - I just need to change the wheel centre caps to red as yellow with silver is fine but IMO looks awful with gold.Its a listed Ferrari paint and not so different from the more rose gold of the 458 Speciale option wheel.
Whilst off I have removed the handbrake calipers to spray and match to the main brakes and whilst the paint is listed as Ferrari Rosso Corsa caliper paint it doesn't quite match.
Would you know if the OEM is Rosso Corsa powdercoat,2 part or a caliper option of same? Once decals/stencils are applied are they then clear coat lacqued? What are your views on using low temp paint on the handbrake calipers given that they don't run at such high temps.
ATB
Alan
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/azdkTNy7.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/lX9jqrEQ" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/lX9jqrEQ.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/AGegcTUb" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/AGegcTUb.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/ptnzVkI2" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/ptnzVkI2.jpg)
Here you go and further to my first post a few pics of the gold wheels (well 2 of 4) now fitted to my F430.Excuse the low winter sun and strange colour temp from fluorescent lighting but I am quite pleased with the results - I just need to change the wheel centre caps to red as yellow with silver is fine but IMO looks awful with gold.Its a listed Ferrari paint and not so different from the more rose gold of the 458 Speciale option wheel.
Whilst off I have removed the handbrake calipers to spray and match to the main brakes and whilst the paint is listed as Ferrari Rosso Corsa caliper paint it doesn't quite match.
Would you know if the OEM is Rosso Corsa powdercoat,2 part or a caliper option of same? Once decals/stencils are applied are they then clear coat lacqued? What are your views on using low temp paint on the handbrake calipers given that they don't run at such high temps.
ATB
Alan
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/WIfJ1TgO.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/ptnzVkI2" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/ptnzVkI2.jpg)
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