2006 Porsche 987 Cayman 3.4 S Bore Score Edition
Discussion
Proper ramps ? Overrated IMO 
And FWIW, I did the same thing (but left one of the front bumpstops out) on the GT3. Oh how I laughed as I started to build the other front strut up, only to discover I still had 2 front bumpstops on the bench
But it got better, Porsche stopped making the Mk1 front springs briefly (just when I wanted a pair), so everyone said the Mk2 fronts springs would be fine .......
With the car's suspension built back up, I dropped the car back onto the garage floor. Hmmmm, looks a tad high
Back up in the air, front wheels off, spring seats wound down half way. wheels on, back on the deck. No change in ride height
Back in the air, wheels off, spring seats wound down as far as they'd go, wheels on. back on the deck. Lower by all of 5mm and thus still looked like a 4 x 4
Verdict : Mk2 springs don't fit a Mk1
Silverstone wouldn't have them back, so I asked the boys in the parts dept at Solihull (all part of the Sytner Group) if they'd have them back. They wouldn't, but they told me the Mk1 springs were now back in production......
Third time lucky (for one side on the front). Well worth every second of the frustration once it was back on the road mind.
And FWIW, I did the same thing (but left one of the front bumpstops out) on the GT3. Oh how I laughed as I started to build the other front strut up, only to discover I still had 2 front bumpstops on the bench
But it got better, Porsche stopped making the Mk1 front springs briefly (just when I wanted a pair), so everyone said the Mk2 fronts springs would be fine .......
With the car's suspension built back up, I dropped the car back onto the garage floor. Hmmmm, looks a tad high
Back up in the air, front wheels off, spring seats wound down half way. wheels on, back on the deck. No change in ride height
Back in the air, wheels off, spring seats wound down as far as they'd go, wheels on. back on the deck. Lower by all of 5mm and thus still looked like a 4 x 4
Verdict : Mk2 springs don't fit a Mk1
Silverstone wouldn't have them back, so I asked the boys in the parts dept at Solihull (all part of the Sytner Group) if they'd have them back. They wouldn't, but they told me the Mk1 springs were now back in production......
Third time lucky (for one side on the front). Well worth every second of the frustration once it was back on the road mind.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Bah, where's your sense of adventure. Pony easy Cayster with its simple McStrut all around and naff all else and you're still folding before the job is done 
Buy an old 996, do its suspension on the deck and be a real man
Bright yellow dampers look lovely, by the way
Do give us the verdict when you're done..anonymous said:
[redacted]
Wouldn't say unnecessarily - it's an alloy upright and if you bolted that onto tags on the damper body it wouldn't be substantial enough without making it quite huge. Also, seating the damper into a tube in the upright is more accurate as you don't have the play of the bolts holding it to the upright to alter things.Horses for courses, you're glad your Pork is designed the way it is for the way it works, really. And you only need to dismantle it every so often.
In all actuality, the 996 is easier at the back as the lower damper mount goes onto a fork on the hub, rather than into a tube. If you can get the bolt out! I've no doubt mine will be a complete s
tbag when the Öhlins go on, a couple of the eccentric bolts needed drilling/cutting out when I did the arms.When I fitted a B12 kit to my M3 I was most unimpressed, felt like every hole was a crater and even smooth roads were very jiggly. But after a few weeks I really warmed to it.
I think they're a bit sticky from new, and need to get driven in a bit. So give it a while - it worked for me.
Or possibly I just HTFU and got used to it! Having said that passengers never mention the ride quality one way or the other.
I think they're a bit sticky from new, and need to get driven in a bit. So give it a while - it worked for me.
Or possibly I just HTFU and got used to it! Having said that passengers never mention the ride quality one way or the other.
How are you planning on lifting it - they look like fixed perches?
I'm currently debating the merits of ride height on my 986 - its about the same as yours in the photo - on H&R coilovers at the moment but even at their highest, i think its too low for the road -not that it rubs, but because I think it runs out of travel and doesnt seem to work as I know it should. Extremely tempted to go back to standard springs and either koni or Bilstein B6 - your review of B8's is putting me off though!
I'm currently debating the merits of ride height on my 986 - its about the same as yours in the photo - on H&R coilovers at the moment but even at their highest, i think its too low for the road -not that it rubs, but because I think it runs out of travel and doesnt seem to work as I know it should. Extremely tempted to go back to standard springs and either koni or Bilstein B6 - your review of B8's is putting me off though!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sadly, I find that's a bit Bilstein. I don't think the tchermans are *that* great at dampers, all told. They do blinding cars, lovely suspension systems, then make them a bit wooden. Great on their bowling green roads, but not ideal on our knobbly, twisty efforts.Öhlins dear boy, Öhlins.
[edit] That said, give them a good bashing about over some s
t roads for 1000 miles before you really judge. They'll need to settle in and lose some stiction on the damper rod bushes.Initially I was surprised you're not impressed with them, but having dug a little deeper and established just what the kit is, I fear you really do get what you pay for when it comes to dampers Jeremy.
Not sure what you paid for them ? but Design 911 lists the B12 kit at £905. Factor in the importers margin and the retailers margin and you're buying some pretty bargain basement dampers for what was a £45-50k car ? originally.
The B12 kit looks like it drops the ride height 30-40mm ? (just about acceptable in my book) but I'm not convinced dropping the ride height is the best way forward either for ride comfort or outright handling prowess.
Clearly the PSS9s are a large chunk more than the B12 kit at £1609, but you're getting ride height adjustment and bump/rebound adjustability, which on something like the Croc is a necessity in my book, even if you set the ride height and damper rates once and never adjust them again.
Whilst I'm not a massive fan of the KW V3's I tend to think they're waaay better quality than the OE 996 GT3 dampers (and thus the standard 987 dampers too) AND the PSS9's, and for what they cost over and above the PSS9's (£130) for the 987 they're actually a relative bargain.
Not sure what you paid for them ? but Design 911 lists the B12 kit at £905. Factor in the importers margin and the retailers margin and you're buying some pretty bargain basement dampers for what was a £45-50k car ? originally.
The B12 kit looks like it drops the ride height 30-40mm ? (just about acceptable in my book) but I'm not convinced dropping the ride height is the best way forward either for ride comfort or outright handling prowess.
Clearly the PSS9s are a large chunk more than the B12 kit at £1609, but you're getting ride height adjustment and bump/rebound adjustability, which on something like the Croc is a necessity in my book, even if you set the ride height and damper rates once and never adjust them again.
Whilst I'm not a massive fan of the KW V3's I tend to think they're waaay better quality than the OE 996 GT3 dampers (and thus the standard 987 dampers too) AND the PSS9's, and for what they cost over and above the PSS9's (£130) for the 987 they're actually a relative bargain.
bgunn said:
Sadly, I find that's a bit Bilstein. I don't think the tchermans are *that* great at dampers, all told. They do blinding cars, lovely suspension systems, then make them a bit wooden. Great on their bowling green roads, but not ideal on our knobbly, twisty efforts.
Öhlins dear boy, Öhlins.
[edit] That said, give them a good bashing about over some st roads for 1000 miles before you really judge. They'll need to settle in and lose some stiction on the damper rod bushes.
Whilst I agree with your sentiments regarding Ohlins, I'm not convinced ze Germans don't do dampers. As I'm finding out. the damping on the Cayman R is exceptionally well judged (granted the quality of the damping as opposed to the rates) isn't perfect, but it's by no means poor. Likewise a Mk1 GT3 on fresh Bilstein OE suspension is a joyous experience to drive.Öhlins dear boy, Öhlins.
[edit] That said, give them a good bashing about over some s
t roads for 1000 miles before you really judge. They'll need to settle in and lose some stiction on the damper rod bushes.Bilstein and KW both make world class damper products, but there's a caveat, they come at a cost, and it's a cost all too few are prepared to pay, (most think it's far easier to add another 50/75/100hp to make a car quicker)
Ohlins, Moton and JRZ all fall under the same banner, exceptional products, that few will ever experience unless involved in motorsport.
Having taken the time, money and ballache to do the Ohlins "thing" properly, I can vouch for their benefits in no uncertain terms. The results are truly other wordly.
Slippydiff said:
Whilst I agree with your sentiments regarding Ohlins, I'm not convinced ze Germans don't do dampers. As I'm finding out. the damping on the Cayman R is exceptionally well judged (granted the quality of the damping as opposed to the rates) isn't perfect, but it's by no means poor. Likewise a Mk1 GT3 on fresh Bilstein OE suspension is a joyous experience to drive.
Bilstein and KW both make world class damper products, but there's a caveat, they come at a cost, and it's a cost all too few are prepared to pay, (most think it's far easier to add another 50/75/100hp to make a car quicker)
Ohlins, Moton and JRZ all fall under the same banner, exceptional products, that few will ever experience unless involved in motorsport.
Having taken the time, money and ballache to do the Ohlins "thing" properly, I can vouch for their benefits in no uncertain terms. The results are truly other wordly.
OK, I'll qualify my statement - your 'run of the mill' tchermann damper is generally as we all agree. You need to spend a decent amount of money on premium Bilstein stuff to get the sort of quality you want. Bilstein and KW both make world class damper products, but there's a caveat, they come at a cost, and it's a cost all too few are prepared to pay, (most think it's far easier to add another 50/75/100hp to make a car quicker)
Ohlins, Moton and JRZ all fall under the same banner, exceptional products, that few will ever experience unless involved in motorsport.
Having taken the time, money and ballache to do the Ohlins "thing" properly, I can vouch for their benefits in no uncertain terms. The results are truly other wordly.
'Tis rather a shame - I think their cheaper products may work well on German roads, but not so good on the cratered creme brûlée surfaces we have here.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My guess is suspension kits (be they springs, dampers or coilovers) by Racing Dynamics, Schnitzer, Hartge etc have to quantifiably "better" than the OE stuff they'll be replacing, thus they tend to be properly developed (and that would certainly be the case with Porsche/Bilstein developed M030 kits)One wonders what Bilstein's brief was when they conceived the B12's in conjunction with Eibach.
What's the issue B12's, too stiff, too floaty or just plain harsh/overly soft due to a mismatch between spring and damper rates ?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Any links? I've been looking for 'top mount spacers' and not found anything - it was something expected to be easily bought from previous experience with other cars. Am i searching the wrong term in Porsche language?Right - sorry for thread derail but while we are on suspension technical...
Firstly - I would also suggest giving it a bit of time for the dampers to loosen up as stiction can contribute to feel, a surprising amount too.
Secondly - have you checked you don't have binding bushes? Did you release the bolts and re-torque? Again, if you have rubber bushings (The coffin arms in particular) that are 'wound up' then that can again contribute a lot of extra effective spring rate, and not nice spring rate either.
Slippydiff said:
I'm not convinced dropping the ride height is the best way forward either for ride comfort or outright handling prowess.
I'm coming round to this being the key for the Mcpherson strut setup on these cars. My car (I've just been out to take a photo to complain) is about the same as yours - I think its too low. My background is cars with 'better' double wishbone type setups - I think the limitations of a strut, and the way it works is the problem here.
For road use, I think wheel travel is key - I'm coming round to the idea of less spring rate but adding more ARB - on a track car this might reduce ultimate grip but on the road i think its the right direction, combined with wheel travel more in line with what Porsche designed in.
I think this is especially slow as the lower coffin arms are not particularly long on these, the relative movement of the lower arm and strut on these goes through quite some changes in leverage as it moves through its travel.
In summary, it looks cool, but the adverse affects are too large on these.
Leaving the second question - Bilstein (B6 in my cars probably) or Koni Sports - or Koni FSD? (Do they do Koni FSD for 987 - I've used them before, worth you researching maybe. Brilliant for road cars). I think the Bilstein bashing might be a bit premature for now.
As for Ohlins - I had Ohlins on my first Mazda. My god, they were good. I also ran GAZ Gold on two cars, similarly good but didn't last long. Cheap to rebuild though.
Wouldn't life be boring if we didn't think about all this nonsense...
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