2006 Porsche 987 Cayman 3.4 S Bore Score Edition
Discussion
anonymous said:
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Well I'll be 
I didn't think for one minute it'd be your car, but as soon as I saw it I thought of your thread (as I very rarely see any red Cayman's out and about and have followed your thread from the beginning) so tried to remember the plate whilst trying not to crash!Definitely very sensibly driven from what I saw too
Does this arrow point to the thick compensating plate in situ?
Looking at this image, it would appear that the weight over the front axle has already used up almost all of the available spring travel leaving perhaps less than an inch(?) of usable travel. One would hope that the internal bump stops would come into play and prevent the springs becoming fully coil bound, but can you sense that this is happening?
As it stands, it would appear that these springs in a 987 (with its relatively modest weight over the front axle) deliver virtually no effective front suspension travel so they are clearly not fit for purpose.
Hope it doesn't spoil your trip to Spa.
Looking at this image, it would appear that the weight over the front axle has already used up almost all of the available spring travel leaving perhaps less than an inch(?) of usable travel. One would hope that the internal bump stops would come into play and prevent the springs becoming fully coil bound, but can you sense that this is happening?
As it stands, it would appear that these springs in a 987 (with its relatively modest weight over the front axle) deliver virtually no effective front suspension travel so they are clearly not fit for purpose.
Hope it doesn't spoil your trip to Spa.
anonymous said:
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I was raising two questions. 1. I had incorrectly recalled you saying you could fit the plates without dismantling the strut. If that was the case the spring it too short/strut travel too long.
2. If you are adding the packing plates between the spring and the bearing/top mount all you are doing is pre-loading the spring and shortening its available travel. Hense it's now coil bound.
Either way the spring is not the correct rate and/or the spring and struts are too short to give the correct ride height.
So I'm not try to argue or say you're wrong. But the parts are
anonymous said:
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Indeed. It's the spring rate that's determining whether it goes coil bound or not, it's quite clear the rate on those is wrong.Might be worth going tapping these guys up: http://www.dfaulknersprings.com
Friend of mine had a similar issue with some Gaz gold pro's on his MX5, and it seemed the original springs weren't rated to what Gaz said they were. This outfit made some new ones up at a very reasonable price and they ARE what they should be. Highly recommended. The finish was 100% better than the s
te cheap powder coat Gaz laughably call a finish on their (clearly Chinese) springs.anonymous said:
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True. I'd go further up the chain. As others have said, use a bit of social media too. It's all good fun.If you're prepared to do some digging, get the springs on the car tested (probably best swap it for the OE ones which will be soft and high but at least safe) then see if they match up to their quoted rate.
anonymous said:
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They don't now.anonymous said:
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Not really. You have a known free length (as the springs came with it and can be measured)
You have a known travel and number of coils
You want a specific rate - find out what the originals are, find out what those are supposed to be, get something made that's probably heavier.
Seems quite a simple equation to me. Easier than mucking about with Bilstein who don't even make the things. They'll probably say "ooh, that looks wrong, here's another set FoC to try" and you'll put them on and they'll go coil bound. Then they'll go "ooh, yes, they look wrong, sorry".
Been there so so many times. Best way in this situation is propel them through their windows at high velocity after proving yourself they are wrong by getting the correct ones manufactured. And gaining a sense of satisfaction in the process, too.
(but that's the engineer in me talking, apologies)
anonymous said:
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Probably did, once, when Eibach first prototyped them. Then some monkey would have changed the supplier, the rate, or otherwise, and they weren't tested in unison.Unfortunately, that goes for their more expensive kit too, as they frequently spec the same 'model' of damper and spring for widely different specs of the same car. It's a compromise, of course..
anonymous said:
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What you're saying doesn't really make sense. Eibach have done exactly what you've said - make something to a known size, rate (albeit clearly not manufactured it correctly, or changed spec without warning) and it fits. H&R do the same for Porsche when they make the OE springs which are not perch adjustable..I'm presuming that the Eibach springs will have the right free length, otherwise they wouldn't pass inspection and would fall off the spring platform on full droop. So you just need to get a spring wound to that same free dimension with the correct rate. I don't understand what you're quibbling about.
If you want preload adjustment, buy a preload adjustable solution. That said, you've been doing it with bits of rubber, just as Porsche do and call them 'compensator plates' for a reason.
anonymous said:
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The last that I'll say upon the matter, as it'll become a pointless and circular argument (not meant to cause a row, just based on some simple facts):They did the sums, of course. Doesn't mean the springs you have on your car conform to those sums, though. I highly doubt they do.
It's not rocket science. You've just borne the brunt of some s
t production engineering.anonymous said:
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No worries, appreciate the thanks, and you're probably right that there'd be a certain amount of development work that is a bit tiring.. It'll be nice to hear of your car working properly (as you expected) soon. If you're down this way we'll have to meet up/chew the fat/drive cars/drink beer.
As much as it's a pain in the arse for you to have to go through this, it's invaluable for others as a reference to what does and doesn't work, and the outlook of the various companies involved with regard to their products and customer service. Before this, I'd always assumed a company like Bilstein would be ok to deal with, your experience clearly shows that they aren't. Which is disappointing. I've got their products on my car and they're good in that application, but they were factory fit, so perhaps more R&D went into it in order to make the required grade.
Hope you get sorted, I'm frustrated just reading about it! I'd be bloody furious if I were actually dealing with it.
Hope you get sorted, I'm frustrated just reading about it! I'd be bloody furious if I were actually dealing with it.
I remembered the other day that I'm actually on H&R springs with Bilstein dampers on my M3, not Eibachs! Works very nicely.
Does sound like something is out of spec but ultimately all Bilstein are required to do is refund you and take the parts back. Doesn't make their customer service sound good, however.
Re. custom springs - I'd personally be much happier using a know quantity. I know from my 205 days of trying to match front springs and rear torsion bars you can easily end up chasing your tail, and gets boring quickly. What you're paying for with the H&R springs is not just the materials but the knowledge they're correctly matched front and rear and an acceptable compromise all round for what you're after.
Clearly it's not worked with the Eibach stuff!
Have you spoken to Eibach? Might be worth popping them off an email as it does sound like something is out of spec - it most likely is a production engineering issue, could be the wrong thickness of wire in the machine, incorrect hardening process or even (say) Boxster springs that have been mislabelled. It does happen.
I think you're correct in expecting better and I would start to make a bit of a fuss in your situation.
Does sound like something is out of spec but ultimately all Bilstein are required to do is refund you and take the parts back. Doesn't make their customer service sound good, however.
Re. custom springs - I'd personally be much happier using a know quantity. I know from my 205 days of trying to match front springs and rear torsion bars you can easily end up chasing your tail, and gets boring quickly. What you're paying for with the H&R springs is not just the materials but the knowledge they're correctly matched front and rear and an acceptable compromise all round for what you're after.
Clearly it's not worked with the Eibach stuff!
Have you spoken to Eibach? Might be worth popping them off an email as it does sound like something is out of spec - it most likely is a production engineering issue, could be the wrong thickness of wire in the machine, incorrect hardening process or even (say) Boxster springs that have been mislabelled. It does happen.
I think you're correct in expecting better and I would start to make a bit of a fuss in your situation.
Whilst it seems sensible to chase Bilstein, I understand their position when they say your recourse is through the retailer/supplier.
If you bought some kitchen white goods from a shop or new car from a dealer you would deal with the supplier rather than the original manufacturer as the first point of contact for faults and claims. That's one of the reasons the likes of Bilstein don't have a retail side and do wholesale/channel sales.
Here's hoping my self-sourced Koni FSD/H&R combo fits and works as I expect ... !
If you bought some kitchen white goods from a shop or new car from a dealer you would deal with the supplier rather than the original manufacturer as the first point of contact for faults and claims. That's one of the reasons the likes of Bilstein don't have a retail side and do wholesale/channel sales.
Here's hoping my self-sourced Koni FSD/H&R combo fits and works as I expect ... !
Given there are users who have put the H&R springs onto their 987 Boxster and you are otherwise happy with the dampers and still want a reasonably quick turn around I'd be thinking about a full set of H&R springs and seeing if the retailer will take the Eibachs and issue a part refund. Or perhaps even the R/Spyder springs might be a worthwhilematch too?
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