2015 Fiesta Zetec S 'Red Edition' - Evo Triangle in the snow
Discussion
gweaver said:
I spent too long looking into specifications of the different 1.0l ecoboost variants, including checking on the Ford ETIS system and reading their press releases.
In summary:
Engines
The Titanium is typically available with a bigger discount than the Zetec S, so if you need rear doors just get the Titanium, save the money, and don't worry about the 0.4s. Or get the Mountune, but beware that the MP135 map is still torque/boost limited in first and second. Even MR165 has restricted boost in first and second.
And while I'm on the subject of maps:
100PS - 0-62: 11.2s
125PS - 0-62: 9.4s
140PS - 0-62: 9.0s
MP135 - 0-60: 8.6s
Look carefully and put your hand up if you think the Mountune MP135 is definitely faster than the 140PS.
TL;DR - Ford were too tight to put a decent gearbox in the Zetec S/Red/Black, and dropped some marketing bull to pull the wool over the eyes of journalists and customers.
It's not just a Ford thing. There's a Corsa Red/Black with a 1.4 Turbo (150PS/220NM) and a 0-60 of 8.9s. That might be the slowest 150PS hot hatch ever.
That's all really good to know, we're going in today to take a look and see what she likes so all that will help massively.In summary:
Engines
- 100PS - turbine is made of lower grade alloy
- 125PS - turbine made of Inconel (higher heat tolerances)
- 140PS - uprated head gasket
- Titanium 125PS - long fifth gear, good for cruising
- Zetec S 125PS - shorter fifth gear vs. Titanium
- Zetec S/Red/Black 140PS - longer 1st, 2nd, possibly 3rd too, to work around the inadequate torque rating of the IB5 gearbox - they couldn't increase the engine torque without lengthening the ratios, hence the measly 0.4 sec improvement in 0-62 time. Marketed as close ratio or somesuch..
- Zetec - grandad spec, with 15" wheels - very comfy
- Titanium - grandad spec, with 16" wheels - still pretty good
- Zetec S/Red/Black - 10mm lower, 12% stiffer front, 6% stiffer front, 11% stiffer torsion beam. 16" 45 profile or 17" 40 profile (now standard), ride not as good as Titanium.
The Titanium is typically available with a bigger discount than the Zetec S, so if you need rear doors just get the Titanium, save the money, and don't worry about the 0.4s. Or get the Mountune, but beware that the MP135 map is still torque/boost limited in first and second. Even MR165 has restricted boost in first and second.
And while I'm on the subject of maps:
100PS - 0-62: 11.2s
125PS - 0-62: 9.4s
140PS - 0-62: 9.0s
MP135 - 0-60: 8.6s
Look carefully and put your hand up if you think the Mountune MP135 is definitely faster than the 140PS.
TL;DR - Ford were too tight to put a decent gearbox in the Zetec S/Red/Black, and dropped some marketing bull to pull the wool over the eyes of journalists and customers.
It's not just a Ford thing. There's a Corsa Red/Black with a 1.4 Turbo (150PS/220NM) and a 0-60 of 8.9s. That might be the slowest 150PS hot hatch ever.
Thanks
Lgfst said:
That's all really good to know, we're going in today to take a look and see what she likes so all that will help massively.
In that case, may I suggest spending a few minutes on drivethedeal. It's pretty quick to tick a few options boxes and get a price or three. Other brokers are available - CarWow is worth a look if you'd prefer a local ish dealer. Or you may prefer to use the online prices to bargain your local dealer down.Personally I'd have gone for a spare wheel and parking sensors or reversing camera (Titanium only for latter). The leather seats IMHO look and feel cheap and are definitely not worth £765. Your dealer may be able to supply the MP135 map on the Titanium, but beware the ongoing insurance costs.
Ive seen a zetec S black/red next to a normal zetec S and they do look like they sit lower, so presumed only the red/black had the suspension changes although Im happy to be proven wrong.
Todays gripe is the amount of road noise around 60-80mph when pressing on, meaning having to spend far too much time glancing at the rev counter rather than listening to the engine note.
Todays gripe is the amount of road noise around 60-80mph when pressing on, meaning having to spend far too much time glancing at the rev counter rather than listening to the engine note.
gweaver said:
In that case, may I suggest spending a few minutes on drivethedeal. It's pretty quick to tick a few options boxes and get a price or three. Other brokers are available - CarWow is worth a look if you'd prefer a local ish dealer. Or you may prefer to use the online prices to bargain your local dealer down.
.
Thanks for this info, used it to get a great deal. We've (SWMBO) has gone for an ex demo Titanium X with 17 inch wheels, dress up kit, active city stop. In magnetic? with the 125 engine. .
She says it's fine as a 125. The mountune upgrade isn't that much on insurance either but can decide on that. It's just for her to potter around and I'll probably never drive it.
Again thanks for the info, really saved me a lot. Which is going to the Cayman fund
Lgfst said:
We've (SWMBO) has gone for an ex demo Titanium X with 17 inch wheels, dress up kit, active city stop. In magnetic? with the 125 engine.
Nice, it'll have a few toys then.If the auto wipers get annoying, apparently you can revert to standard variable intermittent by disconnecting the rain sensor.
Lgfst said:
Again thanks for the info, really saved me a lot. Which is going to the Cayman fund
Good stuff :-)Did the dealer manager pull a face? Feel free to PM me the gory details..
GTIAlex said:
Ive seen a zetec S black/red next to a normal zetec S and they do look like they sit lower, so presumed only the red/black had the suspension changes although Im happy to be proven wrong.
You might be right. I think there is a lot of confusion because Ford aren't exactly transparent with specifications. They also alter trim & equipment specifications every quarter, just to further confuse their poor prospective customers..The press pack (http://fiestaredblackedition.fordpresskits.com/enhanced.htm) does mention suspension and steering tweaks, but doesn't state if they are relative to the standard Zetec/Titanium or the previous Zetec S specification. If it's the former it's misleading, and if it's the latter they've probably applied it to all subsequent Zetec S, including the 125PS and 140PS non Red/Black. There isn't any mention of further suspension tweaks in the eBrochures, and I don't remember seeing anything different in the factory build specs on ETIS, so I guessed the former. If you're curious put your VIN in here.
I'd also expect the uprated head gasket announced with the Red/Black to be fitted to all subsequent 3-cylinder Ecoboost - car manufacturers like to keep their supply chains simple.
Yes, I might be a little cynical..
I do think Ford have earned my cynicism though, having realised that "Overboost" variously translates as "Gearbox can't handle the torque in 1st & 2nd" and/or "Intercooler starts to overheat under full load".
Having said that, I do still quite like the Fiesta - it's still a drivers car, unlike much of the opposition.
Edited by gweaver on Tuesday 23 February 21:04
Thanks for the link will look into that.
I must agree that the gearbox really does hate being rushed in between 1>2>3. Quick changes lead to an annoying delay for anything to happen, sometimes accompanied by a nice graunch. I've learnt to adapt but it certainly doesn't enjoy being push like the mighty yaris did
I must agree that the gearbox really does hate being rushed in between 1>2>3. Quick changes lead to an annoying delay for anything to happen, sometimes accompanied by a nice graunch. I've learnt to adapt but it certainly doesn't enjoy being push like the mighty yaris did
GTIAlex said:
I must agree that the gearbox really does hate being rushed in between 1>2>3.
I find the Swift gearbox quite recalcitrant from cold, but improves as the gearbox oil warms up and gets thinner. I think it's a 75W-90 oil, so quite thick. It's difficult to get a feel for what the synchromesh is doing because the shift action is quite short.The torque rating is a different issue. The gearbox eventually goes bang if too much torque is put through it. The Rover PG1 gearbox came in two different torque specifications for instance - one for the NA 1.8, another for the 2.5 V6 & turbo diesels and petrols. They're fine in road use, but drag racers running ~450bhp treated them as consumables.
From memory the R65 gearbox in the first generation BMW Mini Cooper S was not up to the job, and torque was restricted in first and second to prevent grenading. I've also heard that the R65 gearboxes in the Peugeot 206 don't take kindly to bigger, heavier chav wheels being fitted, as that increases stresses on the gearbox.
There are reports on the Ford forums of IB5 gearboxes in chipped Fiestas grenading, so that boost/torque restriction in first and second is there for a reason. I expect other manufacturers (Vauxhall for one) are doing the same thing so that they can continue to use cheap gearboxes that were designed before small turbocharged engines became ubiquitous. Ideally they should be putting stronger boxes in, like the six-speed one from the Fiesta ST, but the accountants probably said no, and hobbling the performance might help the insurance premiums too.
Edited by gweaver on Tuesday 23 February 23:50
gweaver said:
I find the Swift gearbox quite recalcitrant from cold, but improves as the gearbox oil warms up and gets thinner. I think it's a 75W-90 oil, so quite thick. It's difficult to get a feel for what the synchromesh is doing because the shift action is quite short.
The torque rating is a different issue. The gearbox eventually goes bang if too much torque is put through it. The Rover PG1 gearbox came in two different torque specifications for instance - one for the NA 1.8, another for the 2.5 V6 & turbo diesels and petrols. They're fine in road use, but drag racers running ~450bhp treated them as consumables.
From memory the R65 gearbox in the first generation BMW Mini Cooper S was not up to the job, and torque was restricted in first and second to prevent grenading. I've also heard that the R65 gearboxes in the Peugeot 206 don't take kindly to bigger, heavier chav wheels being fitted, as that increases stresses on the gearbox.
There are reports on the Ford forums of IB5 gearboxes in chipped Fiestas grenading, so that boost/torque restriction in first and second is there for a reason. I expect other manufacturers (Vauxhall for one) are doing the same thing so that they can continue to use cheap gearboxes that were designed before small turbocharged engines became ubiquitous. Ideally they should be putting stronger boxes in, like the six-speed one from the Fiesta ST, but the accountants probably said no, and hobbling the performance might help the insurance premiums too.
Top bearding sir, also fantastic use of the word recalcitrant. The torque rating is a different issue. The gearbox eventually goes bang if too much torque is put through it. The Rover PG1 gearbox came in two different torque specifications for instance - one for the NA 1.8, another for the 2.5 V6 & turbo diesels and petrols. They're fine in road use, but drag racers running ~450bhp treated them as consumables.
From memory the R65 gearbox in the first generation BMW Mini Cooper S was not up to the job, and torque was restricted in first and second to prevent grenading. I've also heard that the R65 gearboxes in the Peugeot 206 don't take kindly to bigger, heavier chav wheels being fitted, as that increases stresses on the gearbox.
There are reports on the Ford forums of IB5 gearboxes in chipped Fiestas grenading, so that boost/torque restriction in first and second is there for a reason. I expect other manufacturers (Vauxhall for one) are doing the same thing so that they can continue to use cheap gearboxes that were designed before small turbocharged engines became ubiquitous. Ideally they should be putting stronger boxes in, like the six-speed one from the Fiesta ST, but the accountants probably said no, and hobbling the performance might help the insurance premiums too.
Edited by gweaver on Tuesday 23 February 23:50
df76 said:
That's interesting and have you got a link to that?? I haven't seen anything on the forums that I view..
http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/71358-e...http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/42729-e...
http://www.fordownersclub.com/forums/topic/42729-e...
If considering a remap that 54 page thread may be worth reading in full.
TL;DR Mountune MP135 (Ford warrantied) should be safe, other remaps increase peak torque beyond 215NM and/or allow higher than standard boost in 1st and 2nd. Suspect the latter is the bigger issue.
Also see this video for in gear boost with Mountune MR165. Boost is still limited in 1st, despite this being the non warranty friendly Mountune remap. The same guy also does an acceleration run in another video.
GTIAlex said:
Top bearding sir
Thanks, I think!GTIAlex said:
Well today I had my drivers door mirror smashed off and a nice scratch the length of the side of the car left for me after work.
Hoping for CCTV but not holding out much hope.
B****r. B******s.Hoping for CCTV but not holding out much hope.
Sounds like it's a case of being sensible, and not getting drawn into traffic light race starts... I had also completely forgotten reading about those couple of synchro failures. Will be interesting to see if others have suffered, may just ask the question.
Edited by df76 on Friday 26th February 18:52
df76 said:
Sounds like it's a case of being sensible, and not getting drawn into traffic light race starts... I had also completely forgotten reading about those couple of synchro failures. Will be interesting to see if others have suffered, may just ask the question.
It doesn't really make sense to me. I'd have thought that synchro failure would have nothing to do with the engine output, and a lot to do with over enthusiastic driving.Bearing failure on the other hand could be attributable to both poor driving and exceeding the torque rating.
gweaver said:
df76 said:
Sounds like it's a case of being sensible, and not getting drawn into traffic light race starts... I had also completely forgotten reading about those couple of synchro failures. Will be interesting to see if others have suffered, may just ask the question.
It doesn't really make sense to me. I'd have thought that synchro failure would have nothing to do with the engine output, and a lot to do with over enthusiastic driving.Bearing failure on the other hand could be attributable to both poor driving and exceeding the torque rating.
Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff