JZW Stage 5 Saab 9-3 v6 Aero

[griffin dai]

HP Tuners software now activated (that was a challenge and half!!) But they've been great once the comms issue was sorted.





Pid's downloaded from my tuner so just needs a few 3-6k runs logged in 3rd then he can adjust the map. But before that the clutch needs to be ran in around 500 miles, I'll have to get a log to him of the throttle cut though so he can fix this, and then crack on with the fun stuff.



The new flywheel was too big and fouled the block, so they've sent out a new re machined one, just needed a couple mm taken off, also needed new flywheel bolts as these are too long. That should be fitted Friday/Saturday.

Quaifes installed, new diff bearings/seals fitted and fresh redline gear oil, box is back on. Just the flywheel & clutch to fit and it's done

[griffin dai]

Shadow R1 said:

Making real progress with it now.

Getting there mate

Just hope this throttle cut is down to the 20T map being too full on for the turbo and not the fuel pump or coils. Going off that dash command app it's putting out way more than I expected so it could just need taming a bit.

Need to finish this audio side off, been ages

[griffin dai]

Still no car

The replacement flywheel wasn't sent out in time so it's put the job back another week (garage had it booked in for yesterday, diffs fitted but it's been on the ramp all week waiting to be finished so this is messing them around now) so it's still stuck on the ramp and getting done next Thursday and I'm off to London for a fortnight with work so looking at least 3 weeks until I get it back

But have had another map to try with a few improvements, mainly added a 3 bar map sensor. Some of the stage 5 guys are running right on the edge of the standard map sensor and this has sorted out the throttle cut issue & stopped it dumping boost early (same issues in having with the 18t) fingers crossed this'll sort it.



There's also talks of some new tubular manifolds getting built That's definitely on the cards for next year if the testing goes ok



Standard ones are pretty small and restrictive so all going well these should liven things up a bit

Pics off google:

[griffin dai]

djgritt said:

Tubulars look a bit tasty...

Sure do

Here's the place in the States mate:

https://sites.google.com/site/cbmotorworks/home/sa...

5" DP sounds interesting!! Kicking myself for not thinking about this, the standard pre cats massive so could have had a chunky DP built there instead of 3"

Some nice kit on there

[griffin dai]

Nath88n said:

Do you have a picture of the short shift fitted? Do you use the standard leather gator?
I was thinking about getting a new oem gear knob assembly to replace my slightly worn one, however the short shifter works out at a similar price. Mine does have the facelift dashboard though, if that makes a difference?

It's still in the box mate, the cars been with the garage getting the diff/clutch upgrade but it'll be fitted as soon as its back home

Shouldn't matter if it's the facelift budd, also 5 & 6 speed are the same kit. Is it just the gear knob you have to replace or full assembly? This came in pretty expensive when you add in the shipping costs plus import duties....plus they sent the wrong knob out and had to ship another a few weeks later....got stung again with import duty on that one I did go for the clamp & bushes though, but still pretty expensive!

Another choice is TWM which is pretty similar, or Mtec which replaces the part on the gearbox turret, looks a right ball ache to fit going off the VXR guys!!! Or there's a short shifter from JamSaab which is the same as the GenuinSaab one in the states. That ones just a reduced up & down throw not left & right like the others and you keep the original gearknob.

[griffin dai]

SAAB's finally back home! 6 weeks for a clutch swap!!!!

I've only covered around 50 miles so far but initial impressions on the paddle clutch are good, pedal feels a little harder and definitely more of a spring to it, but soon got used to that and felt better at the end of the journey. Bite points a little lower than standard but still fine, has some chatter at idle/neutral but that goes when it's in gear.

Had a nice surprise with the 6 puck clutch though, not at all grabby/snatchy like I thought it would be, engages just as smooth as the standard one, no problems in heavy start/stop traffic or reversing/edging forward in to tight parking spaces. So far so good!!

Quaife- Haven't really had a chance to try this yet, I'm sticking to that 500 mile break in for the clutch so it's getting driven slow for now! Can definitely feel it corners better though, wasn't too bad before for a fwd car but you can feel the Quaife working and tug you a little tighter into the corner.

Tomorrows job- swap the maf sensors around & remap again, fingers crossed that's cured the throttle cut issue.

450 slow & boring miles to go until I can really see how it drives. First time in 2 years with no clutch slip!!

Edited by griffin dai on Tuesday 3rd November 18:55

[griffin dai]

Heaveho said:

Be careful going to downpipes etc that are overly large, there's a possibility that you may sacrifice torque. I think it's a mistake I made on the Evo with ported exhaust manifold and turbo elbow. Might be of more benefit to you, given the amount of hp and torque the car already seems capable of, but I'd maybe ask some questions first, rather than risk finding out the expensive way?

Great thread, btw.

Thanks mate. Yeah most tend to just go for 3" and no more. Thing is with the stock downpipe it's got a big thick cat running straight off the turbo flange, looks around 4-4.5" diameter so plenty of room there for a mental downpipe, just trying to find more info on it, I don't think anyone's done this in the UK yet but a lot of the Vectra VXR guys (same engine) have hollowed out the standard Cat so effectively have a larger downpipe then tapers into 2.25" to the rest of the system. Kicking myself now for not thinking about it when the car was in the garage for the month!!!

Standard DP with big precat;



Here's the 5" DP I've found in the states:



https://sites.google.com/site/cbmotorworks/saab/9-...

The second option is our special 5 inch expansion chamber downpipe.  This downpipe has a large 5 inch exhaust section behinsd the turbine outlet.   Turbine wheel efficency is rated in work extracted from exhaust, and efficecny can be increased by changing the pressure across the wheel.  More pressure on the wheel inlet, and less on the wheel outlet increases efficency.  The large chamber creates a low pressure zone directly behind the turbine wheel, similar to running no downpipe.  The effect is reduced spool time and increases top end efficency.  Once the exhaust gas as expanded out in to the chamber and cooled, it is tapered back down in to a 3 inch tube, so that exhaust velocity is retained.   The only downsite to this downpipe is that the factory heat shield cannot be retained, as well as a catalytic converter cannot be added to it.

Something to look into next year anyway

[griffin dai]

camern said:

If you don't mind me asking what sort of ball part cost wise are you looking at for the paddle clutch and quaife diff

I have also have a JZW 9-3 2.8t but only running stage 1

Sure

Clutch was £650 from CG Motorsport but you have to quote Dave from UKSaabs or its £750 (£100 off for UKS, Saab Central & VXROL members) that includes the single mass flywheel, bolts, disc & pressure plate. That's the 666 & 777 kits.

Quaife was £789 from Abbott Racing

You'll also need 2 diff bearings (around £20) plus seals and worth sticking some decent oil in there like Redline. Also really worth sorting the gearbox turret while the box is out, the f40 box is very notchy/stiff but there's a repair kit on eBay for around £20, basically cleans up the inside and swaps the plastic/worn insert for metal. This plus decent oil makes a nice difference to the gearchange.

Labour varies really from place to place, some around £500 but I got quoted £450 & vat, ended up £815 though as they had the car 6 weeks messing around with the duff flywheel

[griffin dai]

outnumbered said:

I've just bought a 9-3 as a runabout 3rd car - was mightily tempted by the 2.8 Aero as they tend to be cheap compared to the 2.0T cars, but just could not get my head around paying 500 quid VED on what's supposed to be a shopping/commuting car.

So I'm now trying manfully to resist having a remap done on the 2.0T Vector that I bought!

23rd March 2006 was when the higher tax kicked in on the v6, mines a 55 plate so I think £290 a year.

Swings in roundabouts though, on one hand you pay almost double the tax on a 07 facelift car, but that comes with a much better/easier to upgrade stereo and that's a massive headache not to worry about (if that's a concern) 03-06 systems are crap and pretty difficult to upgrade.

You can also get a pre facelift car with updated dash/system but again you get hit with the higher tax band

[griffin dai]

Tiny update!

3 bar map sensor now fitted



Another remap to suit but the throttle cut issues still here, actually feels worst than before but Ive read these ecu's need a while to adapt after a reflash so will see how it goes over the next few days. On the old Saab I'd just pull the battery cable for 15 mins then blat it everywhere to quickly adapt but can't here with the new clutch
Need to get the mileage on now so I can send the logs off to the tuner and finally have it mapped up nice. 430 slow/boring miles to go!!!

[griffin dai]

Bluehawk said:

Loving this car!!
Recently owned a Saab 93 2.0t, running 300bhp with bigger turbo etc... so i can only imagine what this thing must go like!

Have you had it on a Dyno yet? would love to see some real figures!

Thanks

Yeah goes well to be fair, the Quaifes doing its job I'm just trying to pile on the miles now up and down the valleys (best place as your constantly up and down the box!!)

Hoping to get on the dyno before Christmas, next mod will be an adjustable actuator, hoping that will help with the boost issue

[griffin dai]

Another map loaded with more base boost, seems to drive better, throttle cut issues still there but not happening until higher up the rev range (keeping it under 4K still though so can't really get a feel for it yet!)

260 odd miles to go until I can floor it!

I can't help thinking the standard actuators not up to this stage 5 tune, so pay day I'll be getting one of these to try, looks a cracking price as it includes the spring kit!!

http://shop.mambatek.com/GM-OPEL-VECTRA-28T-V6-TD0...

This Quaife LSD though!!!! Awesome bit of kit!!!

[griffin dai]

Shadow R1 said:

Did you ever get that logging software working ?

Does it show anything about the cutting ?

It's all installed & good to go, I'm taking it out for a good 60/70 mile drive tomorrow with the scanner fitted & lappy on

[griffin dai]

Finally managed to get a few logs off to John so he can see what's causing the throttle cut & dumping boost early. Still trying to get my head around HP Tuners, I'll try and post a screen shot of the graph display when I figure it out!!

Basically it's boosting too high and knocking a fair bit, backfiring loads if you accelerate from 2k onwards in 3rd. Initially thought the coils could be on their way out or plugs need replacing (I think they've done around 9k in 2.5 years but he's recommended swapping them after 6k)

So John suggested a different way of driving it, not to load up too early in 3rd & 4th, 2k is way too low. 1st & 2nd no problem but 3rd plus gears needs to be driven a bit different.

3rd gear - don't go WOT until at least 3k
4th gear - don't go WOT until 3.4k
5th & 6th - never go WOT here as it puts too much stress on the engine/drivetrain & clutch so better to drop down and power through the gears instead.

And......he's 100% correct!!!! (I'll add what's been said later but worth a read if you've got the v6) just doing his has transformed the way it drives :shock:

So holding off going WOT until 3k has made a MASSIVE difference to things here! Same map, nothing altered except my driving style. No throttle cut, no boost dump, not a single backfire/pop (completely vanished) just accelerates like never before!!

60-90 in 3.3s!!!! To put that into perspective he's getting 60-90 in 3s with the 20T plus tubular headers and probably a more fine tuned map!!

Pretty impressed with that, I'll get a few more logs to him later, maybe he can tweak the map again and get it a tad quicker? 60-100 is 5 secs dead, pretty sure the 19/20T would cover 90-100 quicker as you get more top end power here, but the whole point of going for the 18t was to have a quick sub 80/90mph car.

So far so good!!

[griffin dai]

New map loaded, more fuel in the mid range and it's definitely heading in the right direction this!!

60-90 down to 3.1secs so getting quicker with every tweak, just sent the logs off again so maybe more to come if he thinks there's room for improvement

Missfiring, throttle cut & boost issues all gone now, running nice

[griffin dai]

Shadow R1 said:

Great job.

Thanks budd, running nice now, just making a shopping list now for next year's mods!

[griffin dai]

Booked in for Saturday with SWSS to get the plugs swapped out for another set of NGK LFR7AIX and have the rear bank of coils changed for new Bosch 112 coils, these seem to be a little less prone to dying comapred to the old type 104 coils. Just needs no 2 & 4 coils swapped next month and that done (no.6 coil swapped out last April)

Front banks dead easy to change on these but the rears are a right pita and easy to snap/break something expensive so it's going to the Saab garage!!



Still getting a little misfire and dumps boost if I go WOT too early, hold off until 3k and its fine. I'm hoping new plugs/coils will help here as these v6's can be a bit fussy with coils when tuned and plugs should be swapped out way earlier than normal, done around 11-12k now and have been advised to change every 6k to keep it happy.

Next purchase is an adjustable actuator, maybe that'll help it hold the extra boost. Running a fair bit over standard here to maybe the insignias actuator is a little weak for stage 5! Plus looking into maybe a td04-gt30 hybrid or just upgrade the old 15t to billet 20T next year (50/50 on this, goes well enough but could do with a little extra sparkle between 90-100) but don't want another lag monster like the old 9000!!

http://shop.mambatek.com/SAAB-9-3-28T-Z28NET-TD04H...

[griffin dai]

HybridAero said:

What a brute, so much torque! Are the gearboxes in these loads stronger than the ones in a 2002 9-5?

Wondering if they are a simple swap?

400+ lb ft would most likely lunch a mk1/2 9-5 gearbox, especially 5th gear.

Yeah the F40 box is pretty strong mate, I think they've got dual imput shafts but the gear change can be a little notchy at times, there's a turret repair kit on eBay that sorts it though and better gear oil like redline helps (did it over summer and its ok now)
There's some 550+ft/lb cars in the states now, I'm probably just under 500 here so should be ok. The auto's can take a shed load too

Not sure on swapping to the 9-5, I think the 9-5 uses the f35? I guess anythings possible with enough ££££ though!! Someone on UKS is looking at fitting the 2.8 to his 9-5....that'll be awesome if he can do it!!

Best speak to someone like Mike or Ade on UKS (or Karl & Kev) about the torque limits on the box, couple of GT30 cars there running 400+ft/lbs but not sure if they've done anything to strengthen the box, I think Kevs got the Quaife gear set though (££££)

But I had more gearbox issues running stage 4 & 5 power on my 9000 vs stage 6, everything happens a good 1,000rpm later with the bigger turbo so it's a little easier on the box as long as you don't hoon it in 1st & 2nd all the time. I did 3 boxes on my 9k until I calmed down Fun trying the different ratios out though, the 4:45 was bonkers!!

[griffin dai]

Shadow R1 said:

Great stuff.

Is that boost cut thing at lower revs to protect the bottom end.
I remember from the t5's if they had the early bosch ecu (4.4 I think) it could get full boost at low rpms with a big turbo fitted it would do big damage.
The cars with the later bosch ecu (me7 if memory serves), had a failsafe to protect against this, the cutting it did was as you describe.
This stuff goes back a few years from when i had my T5, so has most likely been sorted now.

Just a thought that popped into my head reading this.

Seems to happen on the jzw stage 5 cars mate, the hirsch/maptun guys don't have this issue but we're running more boost here. The 3.5bar map sensor has cured this with the 19/20T cars but I'm still getting it on the 18t (I'm hoping the new actuator cures this though) can't think what else it could be, unless the plugs/coils are passed it?

[griffin dai]

Wide Open Throttle