My latest project: Triumph XR4x4i
Discussion
MaxRothery said:
Max_Torque said:
No idea why you are bothering with 4wd! Sounds like a good way to ruin the car to me....
(with modern tyres, decent axle location and good damping, it'll put down 250bhp easily, and it's not like you've got a lot of torque to deal with either (by modern stds)
I'd go with a mildly fettled KV6 driving the back axle only for a nice solid 200 bhp / 250Nm
Reading on the Triumph forum, there's a guy who swapped in a rover V8 that was running 250nm or torque and he bent the trailing arm. (with modern tyres, decent axle location and good damping, it'll put down 250bhp easily, and it's not like you've got a lot of torque to deal with either (by modern stds)
I'd go with a mildly fettled KV6 driving the back axle only for a nice solid 200 bhp / 250Nm
Plus AWD makes for great acceleration and that's what I'm ultimately going for
With "only" around 250bhp, and Rwd, there is no need for 4wd on modern tyres.
Max_Torque said:
MaxRothery said:
Max_Torque said:
No idea why you are bothering with 4wd! Sounds like a good way to ruin the car to me....
(with modern tyres, decent axle location and good damping, it'll put down 250bhp easily, and it's not like you've got a lot of torque to deal with either (by modern stds)
I'd go with a mildly fettled KV6 driving the back axle only for a nice solid 200 bhp / 250Nm
Reading on the Triumph forum, there's a guy who swapped in a rover V8 that was running 250nm or torque and he bent the trailing arm. (with modern tyres, decent axle location and good damping, it'll put down 250bhp easily, and it's not like you've got a lot of torque to deal with either (by modern stds)
I'd go with a mildly fettled KV6 driving the back axle only for a nice solid 200 bhp / 250Nm
Plus AWD makes for great acceleration and that's what I'm ultimately going for
With "only" around 250bhp, and Rwd, there is no need for 4wd on modern tyres.
Next question then is, what engine do I go for? I want something light, reasonably powerful, and with a massive mod support, giving the opportunity to increase the power to what ever I want.
RB20/25/26 it too tall and long but has great mod support
Rover V8 is cheap and small but doesn't have the greatest mod support
Mazda MX5 1.6/1.8 is small light and has good mod support, but it's kinda limited to the gearbox limit of 225bh
BMW V8 is small but too powerful, as is an Audi V8
Honda f20c is great but to add any power to it can be expensive
Any more suggestions?
Do you have a budget???
Also no idea what are you talking about when you say there is no mod support for the Rover V8????? Seriously. There are companies that do nothing but mod these.
The RV8 is a good engine for 200-240hp. But gets pricey if you want more. Many 2.0 4 pots can match the power these days, although they will lack the torque and the soundtrack.
I would also suggest that an Audi or BMW DOHC V8 is what I'd call a physically large engine.
The KV6 is a cracking ending for 190-200hp and used in the kit car market. So a proven engine for this type of thing. But higher hp than this will come at a price.
1.8 K Series might be worth considering. Very light and very compact. Good for a fairly easy 170-180hp na. They also Coke in turbo form and with some beefed up internals can make strong power. Again an engine heavily used in the kit car industry. And by Lotus and Caterham. So lots of off the shelf options and a large wealth of knowledge.
Jaguar AJV8's are cheap to buy and are pretty compact for a DOHC engine. But you'll likely have to do your own r&d to make one work with a manual. Which will significantly up the challenge.
All in all it really depends what you want to achieve, your budget and how much customisation and r&d you want to put in. There are loads of other engine options, an endless list really.
Also no idea what are you talking about when you say there is no mod support for the Rover V8????? Seriously. There are companies that do nothing but mod these.
The RV8 is a good engine for 200-240hp. But gets pricey if you want more. Many 2.0 4 pots can match the power these days, although they will lack the torque and the soundtrack.
I would also suggest that an Audi or BMW DOHC V8 is what I'd call a physically large engine.
The KV6 is a cracking ending for 190-200hp and used in the kit car market. So a proven engine for this type of thing. But higher hp than this will come at a price.
1.8 K Series might be worth considering. Very light and very compact. Good for a fairly easy 170-180hp na. They also Coke in turbo form and with some beefed up internals can make strong power. Again an engine heavily used in the kit car industry. And by Lotus and Caterham. So lots of off the shelf options and a large wealth of knowledge.
Jaguar AJV8's are cheap to buy and are pretty compact for a DOHC engine. But you'll likely have to do your own r&d to make one work with a manual. Which will significantly up the challenge.
All in all it really depends what you want to achieve, your budget and how much customisation and r&d you want to put in. There are loads of other engine options, an endless list really.
300bhp/ton said:
Do you have a budget???
Also no idea what are you talking about when you say there is no mod support for the Rover V8????? Seriously. There are companies that do nothing but mod these.
The RV8 is a good engine for 200-240hp. But gets pricey if you want more. Many 2.0 4 pots can match the power these days, although they will lack the torque and the soundtrack.
I would also suggest that an Audi or BMW DOHC V8 is what I'd call a physically large engine.
The KV6 is a cracking ending for 190-200hp and used in the kit car market. So a proven engine for this type of thing. But higher hp than this will come at a price.
1.8 K Series might be worth considering. Very light and very compact. Good for a fairly easy 170-180hp na. They also Coke in turbo form and with some beefed up internals can make strong power. Again an engine heavily used in the kit car industry. And by Lotus and Caterham. So lots of off the shelf options and a large wealth of knowledge.
Jaguar AJV8's are cheap to buy and are pretty compact for a DOHC engine. But you'll likely have to do your own r&d to make one work with a manual. Which will significantly up the challenge.
All in all it really depends what you want to achieve, your budget and how much customisation and r&d you want to put in. There are loads of other engine options, an endless list really.
My engine budget is like £2-3k. Didn't know that lots of company's do mod support for the RV8, I'll look into it. I love both a lumpy, grumpy RV8 but also the scream of the BMW V8 and of the V6s, and they'd be great. Also no idea what are you talking about when you say there is no mod support for the Rover V8????? Seriously. There are companies that do nothing but mod these.
The RV8 is a good engine for 200-240hp. But gets pricey if you want more. Many 2.0 4 pots can match the power these days, although they will lack the torque and the soundtrack.
I would also suggest that an Audi or BMW DOHC V8 is what I'd call a physically large engine.
The KV6 is a cracking ending for 190-200hp and used in the kit car market. So a proven engine for this type of thing. But higher hp than this will come at a price.
1.8 K Series might be worth considering. Very light and very compact. Good for a fairly easy 170-180hp na. They also Coke in turbo form and with some beefed up internals can make strong power. Again an engine heavily used in the kit car industry. And by Lotus and Caterham. So lots of off the shelf options and a large wealth of knowledge.
Jaguar AJV8's are cheap to buy and are pretty compact for a DOHC engine. But you'll likely have to do your own r&d to make one work with a manual. Which will significantly up the challenge.
All in all it really depends what you want to achieve, your budget and how much customisation and r&d you want to put in. There are loads of other engine options, an endless list really.
Modern 2.0 turbos just don't seam to do it for me, too soft and drone-y and not massively entertaining.
The only question is do you want an original link to the new engine. ie you could argue that a KV6 has a very loose connection to a triumph car but if you want the most go for your £££ then the 3.0 ford v6 from the mondeo ST220 is a very cheap source to some decent performance and is a simple, relatively robust engine. (the 2.5 litre version is pretty hopeless and i wouldn't recommend that one, unless you really want to do things on the cheap)
So, if you don't care having a ford engine in your triumph, then that could be a good option. Any which way, you'll be custom fabricating things like exhausts, cooling systems, engine loom, fuel system, engine / trans mounts etc.
I'd start with a completely std engine and get the rest of the car working well with that before you tune it in any way.
So, if you don't care having a ford engine in your triumph, then that could be a good option. Any which way, you'll be custom fabricating things like exhausts, cooling systems, engine loom, fuel system, engine / trans mounts etc.
I'd start with a completely std engine and get the rest of the car working well with that before you tune it in any way.
Thinking a bit more about this. As the 1500 TC is essentially a Dolly. Then you could opt for the Triumph Sprint engine as an easy bolt in option. It won't be a hp monster but 150-180hp is perfectly possible on a budget.
Taking this further. The same 2.0 engine was used in the TR7 albeit in 8v form. But the TR also accepted the RV8. So you might be able to get some fairly easy options going the RV8 route and keeping it a bit in the family as it where. A 3.9/4.0 or a 4.6 can be had pretty cheap and with a good cam you will be looking at TVR levels of power.
Lastly if you want a bit more of a project. Triumph used the sell the slant 4 engine to Saab, who successfully turbocharged it in the Saab 99, albeit it fwd. but it proves the engine is capable of it. So instead of a straight 16v Sprint swap, an 8v or 16v turbo setup of the Dolly/TR7 engine might make for a retro cool custom engine swap.
Taking this further. The same 2.0 engine was used in the TR7 albeit in 8v form. But the TR also accepted the RV8. So you might be able to get some fairly easy options going the RV8 route and keeping it a bit in the family as it where. A 3.9/4.0 or a 4.6 can be had pretty cheap and with a good cam you will be looking at TVR levels of power.
Lastly if you want a bit more of a project. Triumph used the sell the slant 4 engine to Saab, who successfully turbocharged it in the Saab 99, albeit it fwd. but it proves the engine is capable of it. So instead of a straight 16v Sprint swap, an 8v or 16v turbo setup of the Dolly/TR7 engine might make for a retro cool custom engine swap.
As 300 BHP/Tonne mentioned, the Triumph slant-4 is closely related to the Saab engine. However, only the very earliest Saab 99 engines (up to the EMS) will be the same. Once Saab went turbo for everything they strengthened the engine quite a lot, including altering the bore centres of the engine to fit bigger bearings. Anything up to the GM takeover should still have the correct bolt pattern to bolt to a dolomite gearbox, but the engine is a bit longer. That shouldn't be too much of a problem though, as there is a little bit of space up front, especially with a custom radiator and an electric fan.
You will also need a custom exhaust manifold, because although the engine in a Saab 900 is longitudinally mounted it's fitted to the car backwards (with the clutch at the front).
The trailing arms on a Dolly are a known weak point, it being just three sides of a box section. As it turns out if you use very hard bushes in the rear arms the flex that's required to make the suspension work with a live axle is all in the arm itself. One of the Special Tuning mods for the race cars was plating up the missing side to add strength.
You will also need a custom exhaust manifold, because although the engine in a Saab 900 is longitudinally mounted it's fitted to the car backwards (with the clutch at the front).
The trailing arms on a Dolly are a known weak point, it being just three sides of a box section. As it turns out if you use very hard bushes in the rear arms the flex that's required to make the suspension work with a live axle is all in the arm itself. One of the Special Tuning mods for the race cars was plating up the missing side to add strength.
Max_Torque: I'm not too bothered about a triumph connection, if it has one, great, but it's not a feature the engine needs. ST220 engine was on my mind at one point but I wasn't sure about mounting it longitudinal as I didn't think it would mate up to the ford type 9 'box that most ford modders use to make it a RWD car. Is that engine any similar to the jag 3.0 V6?
300hp/tonne: I had considered a sprint engine as there are some cool features and carbed up it would be a great noise but apart from a few simple things like a cam and carn swap, I don't think there's much support behind them. I found one company that makes rally and race engines and they are £7k and £13k respectively.
Davepoth: I didn't know that they sold the engine to Saab so in theory, I could take a spring engine, a Saab engine, put the Saab rods and Pistons into the sprint engine, have a crank made, and turbo it. Wouldon't look out of place. Or could take swap the Saab engine straight in and put all the triumph bells and whistles on it
300hp/tonne: I had considered a sprint engine as there are some cool features and carbed up it would be a great noise but apart from a few simple things like a cam and carn swap, I don't think there's much support behind them. I found one company that makes rally and race engines and they are £7k and £13k respectively.
Davepoth: I didn't know that they sold the engine to Saab so in theory, I could take a spring engine, a Saab engine, put the Saab rods and Pistons into the sprint engine, have a crank made, and turbo it. Wouldon't look out of place. Or could take swap the Saab engine straight in and put all the triumph bells and whistles on it
MX-5 engine is a good shout if your happy with less than 200bhp. And it comes with a nice small, quick shifting gearbox too! It should be a lot easier to install too, with minimum mounting/subframe mods being an I-4. Any V engine will force you into making a much more complex and likely to be difficult to package exhaust line!
The only problem is it won't sound that nice. (compared to a good exhaust on an engine >6 cyls)
I'd personally avoid turbo charging or supercharging because old cars are a nightmare to fit decent cooling into without serious chopping up. You're going to want to use the (small)frontal area for a decent main coolant rad, rather than having to worry about intercooling etc.
For me, i'd want say 240bhp min (at a nice low speed, say 6500rpm) to make this worth doing, and that's going to need 3l or so, ruling out a lot of other smaller N/A engines
The only problem is it won't sound that nice. (compared to a good exhaust on an engine >6 cyls)
I'd personally avoid turbo charging or supercharging because old cars are a nightmare to fit decent cooling into without serious chopping up. You're going to want to use the (small)frontal area for a decent main coolant rad, rather than having to worry about intercooling etc.
For me, i'd want say 240bhp min (at a nice low speed, say 6500rpm) to make this worth doing, and that's going to need 3l or so, ruling out a lot of other smaller N/A engines
MaxRothery said:
ManOpener said:
Could drop a BMW or Audi V8 of just about any kind in there. Even avoid the S/RS/M stuff you'd still see over 300bhp from an Audi 4.2 V8, they're fairly small in size, and surprisingly cheap.
If I can remember the bay dimensions, they might fit. It's 75" long x 30" wide x 22" deep (I think from the cross member). An RB might fit if I got a lower profile sump. If I were to go above 300hp, I'd probably strengthen the suspension just I case it bent. Length of engine (front pulley to bellhousing face) = 490mm
Max width of engine (across exhaust manifolds) = 760mm
Max height of engine (sump to idle air valve) = 660mm
So 19.1 x 30 x 26 inches. Or 1200m (47 inches) length including the gearbox, not that you'd want to use the OE Audi box given it's designed for FWD output (hence these finding themselves in the backs of GT40s and old Lotus), though I suppose you could use a Torsen Quattro box with the front output shafts blanked.
People have got them in the back of Mk1 MR2s so they really will go into tiny spaces.
AFAIK they're actually significantly smaller than the RV8 suggested by 300 (Length : 708 mm Height : 707 mm Width: 770 mm is the figures I've got); light too. For DOHC V8s they're very, very small:
The older 3.7L V8 is only 230bhp if you're worried about power too. Same basic block dimensions. 4.2s are either 286, 300, 310, 340 or 360bhp depending on what they come from.
Edited by ManOpener on Wednesday 7th October 13:38
ManOpener said:
MaxRothery said:
ManOpener said:
Could drop a BMW or Audi V8 of just about any kind in there. Even avoid the S/RS/M stuff you'd still see over 300bhp from an Audi 4.2 V8, they're fairly small in size, and surprisingly cheap.
If I can remember the bay dimensions, they might fit. It's 75" long x 30" wide x 22" deep (I think from the cross member). An RB might fit if I got a lower profile sump. If I were to go above 300hp, I'd probably strengthen the suspension just I case it bent. Length of engine (front pulley to bellhousing face) = 490mm
Max width of engine (across exhaust manifolds) = 760mm
Max height of engine (sump to idle air valve) = 660mm
So 19.1 x 30 x 26 inches. Or 1200m (47 inches) length including the gearbox, not that you'd want to use the OE Audi box given it's designed for FWD output (hence these finding themselves in the backs of GT40s and old Lotus), though I suppose you could use a Torsen Quattro box with the front output shafts blanked.
People have got them in the back of Mk1 MR2s so they really will go into tiny spaces.
AFAIK they're actually significantly smaller than the RV8 suggested by 300 (Length : 708 mm Height : 707 mm Width: 770 mm is the figures I've got); light too. For DOHC V8s they're very, very small:
The older 3.7L V8 is only 230bhp if you're worried about power too. Same basic block dimensions. 4.2s are either 286, 300, 310, 340 or 360bhp depending on what they come from.
Edited by ManOpener on Wednesday 7th October 13:38
If they did the Audi V8 in RWD, it ok would be good, I looked into them and engine mods were a bit expensive.
Would a jaguar V6 work? I think they come in manual and auto flavours and my dads mates got one and he says his is rapid
You can mate a manual to a Lexus V8, there is an MX-5 running one.
N/A mods on most of these DOHC V8's are going to be pricey and limited, as they usually aren't modded and the cost of buying 4 cams and 2 big multivalve heads is expensive.
Hence why the GM LS1 engine is so popular, it's much more compact and lighter than the DOHC V8's and far more tunable. The Lowest powered LS1 is officially rated at 305hp, although GM lied about the outputs and it'll really be 320-340hp in stock trim.
With just bolt on mods (exhaust/intake/tune) you can see over 400hp and with just replacing the rockers, so no internal work you get 420-440hp from them.
If you want to cam them, then you can and it's only a single cam, not 4. A good head and cam setup can result in 90-95bhp/litre from an LS1. So well over 500bhp n/a and that's with the stock 5.7 litres.
6.0 litre and 6.2 litre are available and upto 7 litres or more if you want to spend the cash.
They also take to boost very well. A stock LS1 with a mild supercharger setup will make 500-550hp easy.
Beef the internals up and you can get a streetable 1200hp+ from an LS1.
Of course we are talking a fair chunk of money, but there aren't really any other engines you can get this level of tuning and power from for the same money.
Now, in the UK sourcing an LS1 won't be particularly easy or cheap, as only a few UK cars were sold with them. And shipping one from the USA is expensive. But if you really are wanting easy tuning and lots of power, then you really can't beat them.
N/A mods on most of these DOHC V8's are going to be pricey and limited, as they usually aren't modded and the cost of buying 4 cams and 2 big multivalve heads is expensive.
Hence why the GM LS1 engine is so popular, it's much more compact and lighter than the DOHC V8's and far more tunable. The Lowest powered LS1 is officially rated at 305hp, although GM lied about the outputs and it'll really be 320-340hp in stock trim.
With just bolt on mods (exhaust/intake/tune) you can see over 400hp and with just replacing the rockers, so no internal work you get 420-440hp from them.
If you want to cam them, then you can and it's only a single cam, not 4. A good head and cam setup can result in 90-95bhp/litre from an LS1. So well over 500bhp n/a and that's with the stock 5.7 litres.
6.0 litre and 6.2 litre are available and upto 7 litres or more if you want to spend the cash.
They also take to boost very well. A stock LS1 with a mild supercharger setup will make 500-550hp easy.
Beef the internals up and you can get a streetable 1200hp+ from an LS1.
Of course we are talking a fair chunk of money, but there aren't really any other engines you can get this level of tuning and power from for the same money.
Now, in the UK sourcing an LS1 won't be particularly easy or cheap, as only a few UK cars were sold with them. And shipping one from the USA is expensive. But if you really are wanting easy tuning and lots of power, then you really can't beat them.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 7th October 15:27
What about using a VW 4motion 2.8 V6 engine and running gear? These are getting cheap now I know of a 2001 Bora 2.8 4motion for sale with 6 months mot, full history for £700 that would be a good donor car, 205 bhp, modern parts etc that is a transverse engine not sure if you have space for that?
steveo3002 said:
MaxRothery said:
BMW V8 is small but too powerful, as is an Audi V8
is there such thing as too powerfull?youre look at other engines you can mod and mess with for more power , but theyre too powerfull out of the box?
An Ls1 would be a good one, it's a good mod-able engine.
With the 4-motion, wouldn't fit width ways as I would have a guess that the engine is longer that the bay is wide
Has anyone heard of someone swapping a Japanese straight six into a dolly? I thing there's one on the Triumph forums but I don't know what he had to do to get it to fit. I I tilted the engine to about 25-30 degrees. It would fit under the bonnet at he front better but it would still poke out and I don't think the DVLA take too kindly to engines poking out of bonnets
rallycross said:
What about using a VW 4motion 2.8 V6 engine and running gear? These are getting cheap now I know of a 2001 Bora 2.8 4motion for sale with 6 months mot, full history for £700 that would be a good donor car, 205 bhp, modern parts etc that is a transverse engine not sure if you have space for that?
Problem is they're transverse, so gearboxes are a problem. Don't think they ever did a VR6 in a longitudinal placement.Going back to earlier comments, the Jag 3.0 V6 is a Ford engine isn't it?
ManOpener said:
rallycross said:
What about using a VW 4motion 2.8 V6 engine and running gear? These are getting cheap now I know of a 2001 Bora 2.8 4motion for sale with 6 months mot, full history for £700 that would be a good donor car, 205 bhp, modern parts etc that is a transverse engine not sure if you have space for that?
Problem is they're transverse, so gearboxes are a problem. Don't think they ever did a VR6 in a longitudinal placement.Going back to earlier comments, the Jag 3.0 V6 is a Ford engine isn't it?
I remember an add that triumph made about rallying, saying if they wanted to win over all, they would use a jag V12, I know it's a monstrous engine but would it fit?
Edited by MaxRothery on Wednesday 7th October 16:04
ManOpener said:
Going back to earlier comments, the Jag 3.0 V6 is a Ford engine isn't it?
It's based on it yes. Although the Jag version has a number of differences not found on the Mondeo.The setup used in the S-Type with the manual would probably be quite a nice option. I think someone put one in an MX-5 recently.
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