Rover 200 BRM - 1.8 K-Series turbo project
Discussion
Mot went better than expected. Only failed on unsecured headlights. For some reason they are not held properly in place by the bumper stay that fits between the crash cans behind the bumper. I must had displaced something when I fitted the rad and fmic and associated brackets. Should be an easy fix. I have some nicer headlights to fit anyway (once I've deoranged them).
Emissions were an odd one. They were initially so all over the place they couldn't even test. Then something happened (divine intervention) and they managed to get a reading just within range on all parameters. Result! CO was the biggest problem. Hopefully a better map will sort that. But I can wish about that later!
So I need to sort the headlights and get the mot retest done. At some point I also need to swap the noisy Piper lifters back to the standard ones and see if that resolves the tappy top end. That'll have to wait until after the mapping on Friday.
Whilst in for the mot they also realigned the wheels. Unsurprisingly since I've replaced the entire steering and suspension setup and fitted a new steering rack it was completely out. Drives much nicer now. I will say though that torque steer at low speeds even at this low power level is worse than I thought it would be. That might require some looking into later.
Cheeky daylight shot seeing as she hasn't been out for a while:
Emissions were an odd one. They were initially so all over the place they couldn't even test. Then something happened (divine intervention) and they managed to get a reading just within range on all parameters. Result! CO was the biggest problem. Hopefully a better map will sort that. But I can wish about that later!
So I need to sort the headlights and get the mot retest done. At some point I also need to swap the noisy Piper lifters back to the standard ones and see if that resolves the tappy top end. That'll have to wait until after the mapping on Friday.
Whilst in for the mot they also realigned the wheels. Unsurprisingly since I've replaced the entire steering and suspension setup and fitted a new steering rack it was completely out. Drives much nicer now. I will say though that torque steer at low speeds even at this low power level is worse than I thought it would be. That might require some looking into later.
Cheeky daylight shot seeing as she hasn't been out for a while:
Stuballs said:
I will say though that torque steer at low speeds even at this low power level is worse than I thought it would be. That might require some looking into later.
I can't remember if you have the equal length drive shafts on your car? Pretty sure the later Rovers went to equal length shafts with a mid shaft support bearing on the back of the engine?Car looks great by the way, takes me back to doing work on the original VVC dev for MG all those years ago ;-)
Max_Torque said:
I can't remember if you have the equal length drive shafts on your car? Pretty sure the later Rovers went to equal length shafts with a mid shaft support bearing on the back of the engine?
Sadly no equal length drive shafts. I therefore always expected torque steer, just not quite as much on the lower power map! If it makes 250-300lbft on full boost it'll be challenging.The zt had equal length driveshafts but not sure they'd a way to do it on the 200/25/ZR.
Stuballs said:
Sadly no equal length drive shafts. I therefore always expected torque steer, just not quite as much on the lower power map! If it makes 250-300lbft on full boost it'll be challenging.
The zt had equal length driveshafts but not sure they'd a way to do it on the 200/25/ZR.
Can you get LSD's for these?The zt had equal length driveshafts but not sure they'd a way to do it on the 200/25/ZR.
Stuballs said:
You can and it already has a Torsen LSD in it. I considered upgrading to a Quaiffe when I rebuilt the gearbox but couldn't justify the expense at the time. It may be something I consider further down the road.
Isn't the Quaife a torsen diff anyway? 
I think going for the offside driveshaft with bearing support would be a good move though.
And hope you have a speedy recovery as well
Stuballs said:
So mapping happened today. No problems this time around! Only issue is some tapping from the lifters. They may need changing which will be very disappointing since Piper charged me a small fortune for their uprated lifters. Waiting to hear from Piper.
Anyway, very quick snippet of a power run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFIbN0dNiJI
Numbers don't really mean much at this stage as the timing is very conservative for running in. Power 210bhp and torque 184lbft. Boosting to 8psi.
However, whilst it seemed ok getting back on the trailer, when I got home (after it had cooled down) it's still not running quite right at idle. It bogs down if you boot the throttle from idle and is generally very slow to pick up revs unless you get the throttle just right. So needs some tweaking but it's a good starting point.
Booked in for mot Saturday but I doubt it will get through emissions running likes this. I'll still go and just use it as an opportunity to put a few miles on the engine and see if there's anything else I need to sort. Then I'll have another look at the running issue.
It looks like the turbo is very slow to spool, what's it like to drive or have you not had much chance yet? I guess with such a steady linear power delivery it's not going to spin the wheels.Anyway, very quick snippet of a power run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFIbN0dNiJI
Numbers don't really mean much at this stage as the timing is very conservative for running in. Power 210bhp and torque 184lbft. Boosting to 8psi.
However, whilst it seemed ok getting back on the trailer, when I got home (after it had cooled down) it's still not running quite right at idle. It bogs down if you boot the throttle from idle and is generally very slow to pick up revs unless you get the throttle just right. So needs some tweaking but it's a good starting point.
Booked in for mot Saturday but I doubt it will get through emissions running likes this. I'll still go and just use it as an opportunity to put a few miles on the engine and see if there's anything else I need to sort. Then I'll have another look at the running issue.
227bhp said:
It looks like the turbo is very slow to spool, what's it like to drive or have you not had much chance yet? I guess with such a steady linear power delivery it's not going to spin the wheels.
On the road, the 8psi actuator pressure comes in by 2500rpm so I'm not sure what that dip in the curve comes from. It looks like the turbo coming in but it's not. I can only guess that it's the mapping. Will be interesting to see what it looks like after Track n Road remap it.Stuballs said:
227bhp said:
It looks like the turbo is very slow to spool, what's it like to drive or have you not had much chance yet? I guess with such a steady linear power delivery it's not going to spin the wheels.
On the road, the 8psi actuator pressure comes in by 2500rpm so I'm not sure what that dip in the curve comes from. It looks like the turbo coming in but it's not. I can only guess that it's the mapping. Will be interesting to see what it looks like after Track n Road remap it.What cams are in that and how are they timed? I looked at in your thread, but couldn't find much about them.
If that's spent time on the dyno I think you'll find it already run in btw!
Evoluzione said:
There was a thread in the engine section a few months ago and a few ideas were raised as to where the dip was coming from on other graphs.
What cams are in that and how are they timed? I looked at in your thread, but couldn't find much about them.
If that's spent time on the dyno I think you'll find it already run in btw!
Cams are Piper bp270h spec but with 10.5mm lift instead of the normal 9.65mm for the 270:What cams are in that and how are they timed? I looked at in your thread, but couldn't find much about them.
If that's spent time on the dyno I think you'll find it already run in btw!
They are timed in as per the above spec. I'm no expert but I wonder if there is too much lift at overlap. Hoping the mapper is amenable to adjusting the cam timing to see what effect it has.
Stuballs said:
Cams are Piper bp270h spec but with 10.5mm lift instead of the normal 9.65mm for the 270:
They are timed in as per the above spec. I'm no expert but I wonder if there is too much lift at overlap. Hoping the mapper is amenable to adjusting the cam timing to see what effect it has.
I'm not sure why you call them a 270 when the sheet says 260 at the cam (as opposed to at the valve)? I'd say those lifts at TDC look ok.They are timed in as per the above spec. I'm no expert but I wonder if there is too much lift at overlap. Hoping the mapper is amenable to adjusting the cam timing to see what effect it has.
Evoluzione said:
I'm not sure why you call them a 270 when the sheet says 260 at the cam (as opposed to at the valve)? I'd say those lifts at TDC look ok.
Just what the piper fast road cams have always been called for the k-series. I guess they once were 270 degrees duration but along the way they have been changed/refined. It is confusing! Stuballs said:
Evoluzione said:
I'm not sure why you call them a 270 when the sheet says 260 at the cam (as opposed to at the valve)? I'd say those lifts at TDC look ok.
Just what the piper fast road cams have always been called for the k-series. I guess they once were 270 degrees duration but along the way they have been changed/refined. It is confusing! Had another mapping session. This time at Track n Road in Rainham. It was a really interesting day. They basically started completely from scratch and worked on it for over 4 hours. What surprised me the most was that they mapped TPS vs RPM. Most mappers say forced induction can only be mapped safely with MAP vs TPS so I was a little apprehensive. To adjust fuel and ignition for boost, they use compensation tables in the Emerald based on manifold pressure. As before, I'm sticking to actuator pressure until I can put some miles on the engine and upgrade the fuel pump. This is about 7-8psi.
Result: 250bhp and 200lbft at the fly. (220bhp at the wheels). They reckoned at 16psi it could just reach 300bhp.
Looking at the power curve, you'll notice at the top end the boost rises from 7-8psi to around 10psi and this causes an obvious corresponding spike in power. That's a result of the internal wastegate on this relatively small turbo reaching the limit of what it can flow, forcing gases to travel past the turbine. Not a problem since I'll eventually run more boost than that anyway.
The dip halfway up, which I had before in the last map, is probably the cams. The mapper was confident that would not be felt behind the wheel on the road. We'll see what that looks like when we turn the boost up and maybe look at tweaking the cam timing if it affects real-world driveability.
She's running so much better now. Very pleased with Track n Road. They don't mince their words! Actually what I really liked about these guys is that they take the time to explain what they are doing and why they are doing it. They answer questions (often with some sarcasm, but that's fine) and make suggestions for improvements to the system based on what you'll use the car for. The cafe up the road also makes the best bacon roll I've ever had!
Result: 250bhp and 200lbft at the fly. (220bhp at the wheels). They reckoned at 16psi it could just reach 300bhp.
Looking at the power curve, you'll notice at the top end the boost rises from 7-8psi to around 10psi and this causes an obvious corresponding spike in power. That's a result of the internal wastegate on this relatively small turbo reaching the limit of what it can flow, forcing gases to travel past the turbine. Not a problem since I'll eventually run more boost than that anyway.
The dip halfway up, which I had before in the last map, is probably the cams. The mapper was confident that would not be felt behind the wheel on the road. We'll see what that looks like when we turn the boost up and maybe look at tweaking the cam timing if it affects real-world driveability.
She's running so much better now. Very pleased with Track n Road. They don't mince their words! Actually what I really liked about these guys is that they take the time to explain what they are doing and why they are doing it. They answer questions (often with some sarcasm, but that's fine) and make suggestions for improvements to the system based on what you'll use the car for. The cafe up the road also makes the best bacon roll I've ever had!
rb5er said:
That should feel pretty quick now, there is a huge difference between 200bhp and 250bhp.. Have you driven it much?
Drove it to MOT today. It does feel quick, especially at the top end. It could do with more grunt low down. I'll see how it is when the boost is turned up. The low compression with these cams night be making it a bit lazy. Don't get me wrong though I'm very happy with it! Frankly, I'm just glad it hasn't blown up! The engine now has nearly 200 miles on it, most of which has been on dynos!Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff