Rover 200 BRM - 1.8 K-Series turbo project
Discussion
227bhp said:
Good answer 
Enjoying the thread and your work btw, do you do this for a job?
Thanks. Glad you're enjoying it. I'm certainly enjoying sharing it. Enjoying the thread and your work btw, do you do this for a job?
I'm not a trained mechanic I've just always enjoyed tinkering with cars and bikes and figuring these things out for myself. This project was as much about expanding my own knowledge and having fun as it was about the end result. Frustrated engineer I guess.
Going in for mapping tomorrow morning. Should be a short session just to get the run in map finished. Not chasing power yet. 8psi for now.
So spent the weekend sorting out a few loose ends. Fitted a brand new 52mm throttle body as the old one had a leak from the butterfly pivot. Repeated boost leak test and have zero leakage now tested up to 20psi.
Changed oil and filter again. This is the third lot it's on now and the engine only has 60 miles on it!
Also changed exhaust manifold gasket. It still ticks when it gets up to temperature so think I might have to have the manifold refaced and/or ditch the thermal gasket.
Knocked up a little shroud for the top of the cambelt. Made this myself out of stainless sheet. Gave it a quick polish and added some of the same edging trim I used on the air filter shroud. Came out nice I think.
Wish me luck!
So spent the weekend sorting out a few loose ends. Fitted a brand new 52mm throttle body as the old one had a leak from the butterfly pivot. Repeated boost leak test and have zero leakage now tested up to 20psi.
Changed oil and filter again. This is the third lot it's on now and the engine only has 60 miles on it!
Also changed exhaust manifold gasket. It still ticks when it gets up to temperature so think I might have to have the manifold refaced and/or ditch the thermal gasket.
Knocked up a little shroud for the top of the cambelt. Made this myself out of stainless sheet. Gave it a quick polish and added some of the same edging trim I used on the air filter shroud. Came out nice I think.
Wish me luck!
So mapping happened today. No problems this time around! Only issue is some tapping from the lifters. They may need changing which will be very disappointing since Piper charged me a small fortune for their uprated lifters. Waiting to hear from Piper.
Anyway, very quick snippet of a power run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFIbN0dNiJI
Numbers don't really mean much at this stage as the timing is very conservative for running in. Power 210bhp and torque 184lbft. Boosting to 8psi.
However, whilst it seemed ok getting back on the trailer, when I got home (after it had cooled down) it's still not running quite right at idle. It bogs down if you boot the throttle from idle and is generally very slow to pick up revs unless you get the throttle just right. So needs some tweaking but it's a good starting point.
Booked in for mot Saturday but I doubt it will get through emissions running likes this. I'll still go and just use it as an opportunity to put a few miles on the engine and see if there's anything else I need to sort. Then I'll have another look at the running issue.
Anyway, very quick snippet of a power run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFIbN0dNiJI
Numbers don't really mean much at this stage as the timing is very conservative for running in. Power 210bhp and torque 184lbft. Boosting to 8psi.
However, whilst it seemed ok getting back on the trailer, when I got home (after it had cooled down) it's still not running quite right at idle. It bogs down if you boot the throttle from idle and is generally very slow to pick up revs unless you get the throttle just right. So needs some tweaking but it's a good starting point.
Booked in for mot Saturday but I doubt it will get through emissions running likes this. I'll still go and just use it as an opportunity to put a few miles on the engine and see if there's anything else I need to sort. Then I'll have another look at the running issue.
Had a small setback in January when I was in a motorcycle accident and sustained some nasty internal injuries. I'm on the mend now (less a kidney and spleen) so looking to progress things now.
Actually, have mot rebooked for this weekend and another mapping session next week to dial things in a bit better. Still having problems with idling which could be down to a number of things - map, fuelling (I'm running batch injection as had to lose the cam sensor), cams (the bigger lift may be giving me too much lift at overlap).
I've also been making enquiries for the full respray. It's so difficult knowing where to go and who will do a pukka job!
Actually, have mot rebooked for this weekend and another mapping session next week to dial things in a bit better. Still having problems with idling which could be down to a number of things - map, fuelling (I'm running batch injection as had to lose the cam sensor), cams (the bigger lift may be giving me too much lift at overlap).
I've also been making enquiries for the full respray. It's so difficult knowing where to go and who will do a pukka job!
BuzzBravado said:
What does no spleen mean for how you live now?
They didn't actually remove it. They preformed a procedure called embolisation where they block of the main arterial blood supply. They say it should still function as a spleen from the peripheral blood flow although I will probably be more susceptible to infection and struggle to fight things off more than I used to. No biggie.Mot went better than expected. Only failed on unsecured headlights. For some reason they are not held properly in place by the bumper stay that fits between the crash cans behind the bumper. I must had displaced something when I fitted the rad and fmic and associated brackets. Should be an easy fix. I have some nicer headlights to fit anyway (once I've deoranged them).
Emissions were an odd one. They were initially so all over the place they couldn't even test. Then something happened (divine intervention) and they managed to get a reading just within range on all parameters. Result! CO was the biggest problem. Hopefully a better map will sort that. But I can wish about that later!
So I need to sort the headlights and get the mot retest done. At some point I also need to swap the noisy Piper lifters back to the standard ones and see if that resolves the tappy top end. That'll have to wait until after the mapping on Friday.
Whilst in for the mot they also realigned the wheels. Unsurprisingly since I've replaced the entire steering and suspension setup and fitted a new steering rack it was completely out. Drives much nicer now. I will say though that torque steer at low speeds even at this low power level is worse than I thought it would be. That might require some looking into later.
Cheeky daylight shot seeing as she hasn't been out for a while:
Emissions were an odd one. They were initially so all over the place they couldn't even test. Then something happened (divine intervention) and they managed to get a reading just within range on all parameters. Result! CO was the biggest problem. Hopefully a better map will sort that. But I can wish about that later!
So I need to sort the headlights and get the mot retest done. At some point I also need to swap the noisy Piper lifters back to the standard ones and see if that resolves the tappy top end. That'll have to wait until after the mapping on Friday.
Whilst in for the mot they also realigned the wheels. Unsurprisingly since I've replaced the entire steering and suspension setup and fitted a new steering rack it was completely out. Drives much nicer now. I will say though that torque steer at low speeds even at this low power level is worse than I thought it would be. That might require some looking into later.
Cheeky daylight shot seeing as she hasn't been out for a while:
Max_Torque said:
I can't remember if you have the equal length drive shafts on your car? Pretty sure the later Rovers went to equal length shafts with a mid shaft support bearing on the back of the engine?
Sadly no equal length drive shafts. I therefore always expected torque steer, just not quite as much on the lower power map! If it makes 250-300lbft on full boost it'll be challenging.The zt had equal length driveshafts but not sure they'd a way to do it on the 200/25/ZR.
227bhp said:
It looks like the turbo is very slow to spool, what's it like to drive or have you not had much chance yet? I guess with such a steady linear power delivery it's not going to spin the wheels.
On the road, the 8psi actuator pressure comes in by 2500rpm so I'm not sure what that dip in the curve comes from. It looks like the turbo coming in but it's not. I can only guess that it's the mapping. Will be interesting to see what it looks like after Track n Road remap it.Evoluzione said:
There was a thread in the engine section a few months ago and a few ideas were raised as to where the dip was coming from on other graphs.
What cams are in that and how are they timed? I looked at in your thread, but couldn't find much about them.
If that's spent time on the dyno I think you'll find it already run in btw!
Cams are Piper bp270h spec but with 10.5mm lift instead of the normal 9.65mm for the 270:What cams are in that and how are they timed? I looked at in your thread, but couldn't find much about them.
If that's spent time on the dyno I think you'll find it already run in btw!
They are timed in as per the above spec. I'm no expert but I wonder if there is too much lift at overlap. Hoping the mapper is amenable to adjusting the cam timing to see what effect it has.
Evoluzione said:
I'm not sure why you call them a 270 when the sheet says 260 at the cam (as opposed to at the valve)? I'd say those lifts at TDC look ok.
Just what the piper fast road cams have always been called for the k-series. I guess they once were 270 degrees duration but along the way they have been changed/refined. It is confusing! Had another mapping session. This time at Track n Road in Rainham. It was a really interesting day. They basically started completely from scratch and worked on it for over 4 hours. What surprised me the most was that they mapped TPS vs RPM. Most mappers say forced induction can only be mapped safely with MAP vs TPS so I was a little apprehensive. To adjust fuel and ignition for boost, they use compensation tables in the Emerald based on manifold pressure. As before, I'm sticking to actuator pressure until I can put some miles on the engine and upgrade the fuel pump. This is about 7-8psi.
Result: 250bhp and 200lbft at the fly. (220bhp at the wheels). They reckoned at 16psi it could just reach 300bhp.
Looking at the power curve, you'll notice at the top end the boost rises from 7-8psi to around 10psi and this causes an obvious corresponding spike in power. That's a result of the internal wastegate on this relatively small turbo reaching the limit of what it can flow, forcing gases to travel past the turbine. Not a problem since I'll eventually run more boost than that anyway.
The dip halfway up, which I had before in the last map, is probably the cams. The mapper was confident that would not be felt behind the wheel on the road. We'll see what that looks like when we turn the boost up and maybe look at tweaking the cam timing if it affects real-world driveability.
She's running so much better now. Very pleased with Track n Road. They don't mince their words! Actually what I really liked about these guys is that they take the time to explain what they are doing and why they are doing it. They answer questions (often with some sarcasm, but that's fine) and make suggestions for improvements to the system based on what you'll use the car for. The cafe up the road also makes the best bacon roll I've ever had!
Result: 250bhp and 200lbft at the fly. (220bhp at the wheels). They reckoned at 16psi it could just reach 300bhp.
Looking at the power curve, you'll notice at the top end the boost rises from 7-8psi to around 10psi and this causes an obvious corresponding spike in power. That's a result of the internal wastegate on this relatively small turbo reaching the limit of what it can flow, forcing gases to travel past the turbine. Not a problem since I'll eventually run more boost than that anyway.
The dip halfway up, which I had before in the last map, is probably the cams. The mapper was confident that would not be felt behind the wheel on the road. We'll see what that looks like when we turn the boost up and maybe look at tweaking the cam timing if it affects real-world driveability.
She's running so much better now. Very pleased with Track n Road. They don't mince their words! Actually what I really liked about these guys is that they take the time to explain what they are doing and why they are doing it. They answer questions (often with some sarcasm, but that's fine) and make suggestions for improvements to the system based on what you'll use the car for. The cafe up the road also makes the best bacon roll I've ever had!
rb5er said:
That should feel pretty quick now, there is a huge difference between 200bhp and 250bhp.. Have you driven it much?
Drove it to MOT today. It does feel quick, especially at the top end. It could do with more grunt low down. I'll see how it is when the boost is turned up. The low compression with these cams night be making it a bit lazy. Don't get me wrong though I'm very happy with it! Frankly, I'm just glad it hasn't blown up! The engine now has nearly 200 miles on it, most of which has been on dynos!Finally the beast is MOT'd, insured and taxed!
Got an amazing deal on insurance with Greenlight. Great cover. Really helpful and friendly service. Chris knott wouldn't even quote because the bhp has been increased by more than 100bhp over stock (modified car socialists?) Adrian flux came within £100 of Greenlight but only when pushed and were quite rude in the process.
Not much else to say really. Just going to drive it!
Got an amazing deal on insurance with Greenlight. Great cover. Really helpful and friendly service. Chris knott wouldn't even quote because the bhp has been increased by more than 100bhp over stock (modified car socialists?) Adrian flux came within £100 of Greenlight but only when pushed and were quite rude in the process.
Not much else to say really. Just going to drive it!
Gave her a proper trip out today up to an MG Rover South East meet at the Halfway House in Essex. About a 100 miles round trip which gave me a chance to open the taps a bit and check handling, etc.
Despite the peak figures, the power delivery is quite sensible below 4k rpm even though the turbo spools well below that. It's a very linear power delivery and not the kick in the back you get from some turbo setups. It makes it very driveable. Above 4k rpm it comes alive. I'd describe it as like the 1.8 VVC on steroids. It's mental. The noise is immense and the power just keeps climbing. I dared not go anywhere near the redline in today's cold and slightly damp conditions. And this is only boosting to a mere 8psi! It'll be interesting to see how upping the boost with a boost controller affects the power delivery.
Handing is excellent. The MG ZR struts and x-power springs are a nice balance. It's compliant and grips very nicely. Slightly hard on really bumpy roads but that's the price you pay I suppose! The poly bushes provide a lot of feedback through the steering wheel which makes it a very involving drive. Couldn't push it too much obviously in these conditions. Despite initial indications, torque steer actually isn't too bad as long as there's good grip to both wheels. I had meant to take some videos but I forgot!
Things to do now:
-Sort tappy top end. Piper hydraulic followers need to come out!
-Poly bush engine mounts. It moves a lot in the bay and kicks back through the gear stick.
-Finish sound deadening in the back and install the rest of the audio.
I'm setting 600 miles as the run-in period. By then I need to upgrade the fuel pump. Then I'll ditch the running-in oil in favour of more slippery semi-synthetic and go for a full power map at 16psi.
Somewhere in there I'll also upgrade the front brakes. I have a kit that will allow me to use brembo 4-pots. I just need the calipers.
Longer term I'm still looking into resprays. Spoke to a classic car restoration guy this morning and waiting for a quote. My favourite so far of all I've spoken to. He actually took the time to talk through the details of the job (like will we take the windows out and doors off!) and he wasn't concerned at all by the rust (he's used to far worse!). Expect it'll be the most expensive of the lot so far too!
So, to summarise, I'm incredibly happy. I set out to build a hopped-up version of the original car that would at least keep up with modern performance production cars, but still be driveable every day, as well as turn heads.
And the best thing about it? I built it myself!
Despite the peak figures, the power delivery is quite sensible below 4k rpm even though the turbo spools well below that. It's a very linear power delivery and not the kick in the back you get from some turbo setups. It makes it very driveable. Above 4k rpm it comes alive. I'd describe it as like the 1.8 VVC on steroids. It's mental. The noise is immense and the power just keeps climbing. I dared not go anywhere near the redline in today's cold and slightly damp conditions. And this is only boosting to a mere 8psi! It'll be interesting to see how upping the boost with a boost controller affects the power delivery.
Handing is excellent. The MG ZR struts and x-power springs are a nice balance. It's compliant and grips very nicely. Slightly hard on really bumpy roads but that's the price you pay I suppose! The poly bushes provide a lot of feedback through the steering wheel which makes it a very involving drive. Couldn't push it too much obviously in these conditions. Despite initial indications, torque steer actually isn't too bad as long as there's good grip to both wheels. I had meant to take some videos but I forgot!
Things to do now:
-Sort tappy top end. Piper hydraulic followers need to come out!
-Poly bush engine mounts. It moves a lot in the bay and kicks back through the gear stick.
-Finish sound deadening in the back and install the rest of the audio.
I'm setting 600 miles as the run-in period. By then I need to upgrade the fuel pump. Then I'll ditch the running-in oil in favour of more slippery semi-synthetic and go for a full power map at 16psi.
Somewhere in there I'll also upgrade the front brakes. I have a kit that will allow me to use brembo 4-pots. I just need the calipers.
Longer term I'm still looking into resprays. Spoke to a classic car restoration guy this morning and waiting for a quote. My favourite so far of all I've spoken to. He actually took the time to talk through the details of the job (like will we take the windows out and doors off!) and he wasn't concerned at all by the rust (he's used to far worse!). Expect it'll be the most expensive of the lot so far too!
So, to summarise, I'm incredibly happy. I set out to build a hopped-up version of the original car that would at least keep up with modern performance production cars, but still be driveable every day, as well as turn heads.
And the best thing about it? I built it myself!
problemchild1976 said:
Love it..... Love these cars
sorry i've only skimmed through and maybe already answered - was there a reason for turbo over supercharger?
JJ
Turbo was a relatively straightforward fit. Using the manifold and a couple of other bits from the standard 1.8 k-series turbo made it an easy job. As far as I know there's no bolt-on supercharger kit for the k-series so it would have required much more fabrication and expert input. I'm no engineer so turbo made more sense.sorry i've only skimmed through and maybe already answered - was there a reason for turbo over supercharger?
JJ
AWG said:
Great review Stu and glad you find the car drivable albeit at a lower boost than what is to come. May I ask what tyres you are currently running?
Tyres are Yokohama Parada Spec 2 but they came on the wheels and have seen better days. Given that this will be a dry weather only toy, I'll probably run something a bit more grip focused on the new wheels I'll eventually run.geeks said:
For your engine mounts I would recomend having a chat with these guys, we use them in the Compacts and they are superb!
http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/
Don't think they make anything for my car. I was going to use powerflex bushes, starting with the stabiliser mounts to see if that reduces the back and forth swing it's got! http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/
Ive said:
Stiffer mounts are definitely a good idea, I have them too in my SC Rover Elise.
Your Emerald ECU has boost control, too. So there is no need for a extra boost controller.
I t can do open loop, closed loop, temperature dependent boost and a few more things.
Do you remember out of your head if the JDM dyno piston'sd crown "rim" sticks out of the liner at TDC? If so, by how much?
I would like to estimate the squish gap.
Regards
Marko
Hi MarkoYour Emerald ECU has boost control, too. So there is no need for a extra boost controller.
I t can do open loop, closed loop, temperature dependent boost and a few more things.
Do you remember out of your head if the JDM dyno piston'sd crown "rim" sticks out of the liner at TDC? If so, by how much?
I would like to estimate the squish gap.
Regards
Marko
Yeah I'll use the Emerald to control the n75 solenoid valve I already have plumbed in.
The rim of the piston sits pretty much flush with the liner. I never actually measured it though.
Mini update and opportunity for more photo whoring...
The top end tapping was driving me nuts and getting worse. So I decided to whip the Piper "uprated" hydraulic followers out and put the standard VVC followers back in. Just gave them a light planishing on the top surface. All back together and so much better. Still a bit tappy but expect it will quieten down once I give it a proper run. I do wonder if the treacle-thick running in oil was part of the problem. Although looking at the piper followers after I removed them you could see that the centre plungers are all different heights. They are also rock solid and I don't remember the standard ones being like that. Will be sending them back.
Meanwhile gave the old girl a quick clean and tidied up the interior.
Next up is to stiffen up the engine mounts and fit a front upper strut brace.
The top end tapping was driving me nuts and getting worse. So I decided to whip the Piper "uprated" hydraulic followers out and put the standard VVC followers back in. Just gave them a light planishing on the top surface. All back together and so much better. Still a bit tappy but expect it will quieten down once I give it a proper run. I do wonder if the treacle-thick running in oil was part of the problem. Although looking at the piper followers after I removed them you could see that the centre plungers are all different heights. They are also rock solid and I don't remember the standard ones being like that. Will be sending them back.
Meanwhile gave the old girl a quick clean and tidied up the interior.
Next up is to stiffen up the engine mounts and fit a front upper strut brace.
Edited by Stuballs on Tuesday 1st March 11:21
Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff