Rover 200 BRM - 1.8 K-Series turbo project
Discussion
Vickers_VC10 said:
It's been a while since I've read this thread, so apologies, but what are you expecting this engine to produce, horsepower wise once it has been remapped?
This turbo would probably be good for 400bhp. However I still have the 660cc injectors on standard 3 bar fuel pressure so they might max out before the turbo does. The Borg & Beck clutch is a potentially limiting factor - they supposedly cope with 300lbft, but we shall see. I didn't want to change it for something harsher as its so nice to drive. I can change it later if I need to, or just limit the torque. Realistically, I'll be happy with 350bhp on high boost. It'll be hard enough to drive at that power I expect!RumbleOfThunder said:
Regarding the flat shifter, if it's liable to hammer the clutch and will only to be used sparingly, would it not be best to just flat shift? 
Perhaps. I just wanted to get it working for the hell of it. Didn't get around to starting today. I'm converting to Evans waterless coolant and 5l prep fluid wasn't enough to fill up. Doh! So it'll have to wait for now. She's literally ready to turn the key now. I put together a base map for the Emerald based off previous builds and had my buddy (who designed these Omega pistons) look it over and make a few tweeks.
C2Red said:
Why Evans; just curious as it’s lower heat transfer properties than water, and combustible I’ve heard from a couple of YouTube videos
Purely to address the corrosion issues some of us have seen with the ductile iron liners we all use. Even guys running oat coolant have seen unusually heavy corrosion of the liners in only a few months. I'm not too concerned about thermal transfer as my rad is enormous and heat control has never been an issue with my setup. Combustibility is a concern.
Having just read your entire thread I am astounded. You have a serious level of dedication to this BRM and it’s very admirable. I would have thrown the towel in at the first engine rebuild. Let alone that bore score. So fair play to you and your dedication. It’s certainly paid off.
I remember my old deputy head at secondary school bought one of these new, it was grounds for continued mocking “because it had a strange orange grill” but as I’ve grown older they have certainly grown on me and I am a fan. Don’t these have a pretty fancy gearbox? Or some sought after diff or something compared to a standard model?
I will follow with continued interest. You appear to be localish to me so I will be sure to keep an eye out. Don’t see many of these now.
I remember my old deputy head at secondary school bought one of these new, it was grounds for continued mocking “because it had a strange orange grill” but as I’ve grown older they have certainly grown on me and I am a fan. Don’t these have a pretty fancy gearbox? Or some sought after diff or something compared to a standard model?
I will follow with continued interest. You appear to be localish to me so I will be sure to keep an eye out. Don’t see many of these now.
Big Tomm said:
Having just read your entire thread I am astounded. You have a serious level of dedication to this BRM and it’s very admirable. I would have thrown the towel in at the first engine rebuild. Let alone that bore score. So fair play to you and your dedication. It’s certainly paid off.
I remember my old deputy head at secondary school bought one of these new, it was grounds for continued mocking “because it had a strange orange grill” but as I’ve grown older they have certainly grown on me and I am a fan. Don’t these have a pretty fancy gearbox? Or some sought after diff or something compared to a standard model?
I will follow with continued interest. You appear to be localish to me so I will be sure to keep an eye out. Don’t see many of these now.
Thanks. Glad you enjoyed reading about my journey with this car!I remember my old deputy head at secondary school bought one of these new, it was grounds for continued mocking “because it had a strange orange grill” but as I’ve grown older they have certainly grown on me and I am a fan. Don’t these have a pretty fancy gearbox? Or some sought after diff or something compared to a standard model?
I will follow with continued interest. You appear to be localish to me so I will be sure to keep an eye out. Don’t see many of these now.
The gearbox is a close ratio version of the Rover PG-1 and it has a Torsen limited slip differential. The Lotus Elise S1 boys pay big money for them!
Stuballs said:
Bright Halo said:
Any luck getting it started?
Yup got her started at the weekend. Ran up to temp and no major issues. Just insured her this morning so planning a jaunt to the end of my road and back to make sure nothing falls off. Then mapping! Bet you are pleased.
Bright Halo said:
Excellent!
Bet you are pleased.
Yes very relieved. Just need to make sure she moves under her own power and then she's all sorted for the mapping. Bet you are pleased.
Decided to refresh the fuel system and upgrade the 190lph pump to a 255lph. My non-return valve was no longer holding pressure so swapped that too, and whacked in a new filter. Used the opportunity to drain out the year-old (or more!) fuel and fill with fresh v power.
Unfortunately I've discovered an issue with my KW coilovers. Initially noticed the bottom of the strut fouls the cv boot and was wearing the rubber away. Investigating the ride height adjustment (to try to gain clearance) has revealed they don't lower the car nearly as much as they are supposed to. So that's something I'll have to sort after the mapping.
BRM is mapped! It was a very tense day which didn't get off to the best start when the transport let me down and I had to drive the unmapped car with the fresh-built forged engine to the mapper 60 miles away! Luckily I had prepared for this and I made it there OK (aside from the gear linkage detaching itself 5 miles from the mapper requiring a roadside repair which involved robbing bolts and washers from elsewhere on the car).
Spoke to mapper upon arrival and filled him in on the spec and my goals. And so the mapping began. Mapper worked his way through the map as usual and before long we were ready for a power run. Started out with making 196bhp at 5psi. Things were looking good and the rings were mostly bedded in at this point. Time to turn it up. When we upped the boost, a few issues started occurring. Firstly the new Iacv self-destructed - probably from the heat. I had the old one with me so we swapped that in and it worked.
The Zeitronix wideband controller also had a hissy fit and turned itself off at the same time the Iacv died. At the time, I didn't know these were the issues. The mapper switched the engine off, exited the car looking concerned, switched the giant fan off then declared to me "I've broken it". My heart sank and I feared the worst. Thankfully he was just being dramatic. Git. We let things cool down and the wideband came back to life.
So with those issues resolved we soldiered on. Then we hit a really big issue as boost climbed above 14 psi - the fuel pressure would suddenly drop off and things would lean out in the top of the rpm range. Very, very bad, obviously. But luckily no apparent damage. We had a look at the swirl pot setup and there was no obvious problem aside from the fuel being quite hot in the pot. This will need further investigation and I have a few ideas as to what happened. I actually want to swap to an alloy fuel rail going forward anyway as I don't trust the plastic fuel rail with 5 bar fuel pressure!
So, the fuelling issue called time on the fun. We dialled boost back to 12psi and left it there. Didn't actually do another power run at this level. On the last power run when it leaned out up top, it made 312bhp at 19psi. With the correct fuelling it would have been more. The mapper reckoned 400bhp is on the cards.
Other learnings: I need to refit the oil cooler. On the rollers the oil temp was hovering between 100 and 110 degrees under load and even on the road it sits up near 100. I need to change my prt thermostat. It should have the 82 degree stat but once warm the coolant never drops below 90. I have a new 78 degree unit so that will be going on. I run Evans waterless coolant which is less efficiency at transferring heat. The oil cooler should help things. If likes the setup to run cooler overall - this is a K-series after all!
Main takeaway is the engine is strong and smooth. Quietest K-series I've ever heard actually. Big thanks to Vara Technik near Heathrow. Lovely bunch of guys!
Spoke to mapper upon arrival and filled him in on the spec and my goals. And so the mapping began. Mapper worked his way through the map as usual and before long we were ready for a power run. Started out with making 196bhp at 5psi. Things were looking good and the rings were mostly bedded in at this point. Time to turn it up. When we upped the boost, a few issues started occurring. Firstly the new Iacv self-destructed - probably from the heat. I had the old one with me so we swapped that in and it worked.
The Zeitronix wideband controller also had a hissy fit and turned itself off at the same time the Iacv died. At the time, I didn't know these were the issues. The mapper switched the engine off, exited the car looking concerned, switched the giant fan off then declared to me "I've broken it". My heart sank and I feared the worst. Thankfully he was just being dramatic. Git. We let things cool down and the wideband came back to life.
So with those issues resolved we soldiered on. Then we hit a really big issue as boost climbed above 14 psi - the fuel pressure would suddenly drop off and things would lean out in the top of the rpm range. Very, very bad, obviously. But luckily no apparent damage. We had a look at the swirl pot setup and there was no obvious problem aside from the fuel being quite hot in the pot. This will need further investigation and I have a few ideas as to what happened. I actually want to swap to an alloy fuel rail going forward anyway as I don't trust the plastic fuel rail with 5 bar fuel pressure!
So, the fuelling issue called time on the fun. We dialled boost back to 12psi and left it there. Didn't actually do another power run at this level. On the last power run when it leaned out up top, it made 312bhp at 19psi. With the correct fuelling it would have been more. The mapper reckoned 400bhp is on the cards.
Other learnings: I need to refit the oil cooler. On the rollers the oil temp was hovering between 100 and 110 degrees under load and even on the road it sits up near 100. I need to change my prt thermostat. It should have the 82 degree stat but once warm the coolant never drops below 90. I have a new 78 degree unit so that will be going on. I run Evans waterless coolant which is less efficiency at transferring heat. The oil cooler should help things. If likes the setup to run cooler overall - this is a K-series after all!
Main takeaway is the engine is strong and smooth. Quietest K-series I've ever heard actually. Big thanks to Vara Technik near Heathrow. Lovely bunch of guys!
Brilliant stuff! Well worth all the effort to build such a unique car!
I have to say though, don't get hung up on "Big numbers" even a genuine 300 bhp in a little lightcar like a 25 is plenty of power, realistically how much more could you use? Once you start pushing boost where the ignition numbers take a dive like the stock market recently, really all you are doing is pushing air and fuel through your engine for little gain, and a lot of risk :-)
I have to say though, don't get hung up on "Big numbers" even a genuine 300 bhp in a little lightcar like a 25 is plenty of power, realistically how much more could you use? Once you start pushing boost where the ignition numbers take a dive like the stock market recently, really all you are doing is pushing air and fuel through your engine for little gain, and a lot of risk :-)
Max_Torque said:
Brilliant stuff! Well worth all the effort to build such a unique car!
I have to say though, don't get hung up on "Big numbers" even a genuine 300 bhp in a little lightcar like a 25 is plenty of power, realistically how much more could you use? Once you start pushing boost where the ignition numbers take a dive like the stock market recently, really all you are doing is pushing air and fuel through your engine for little gain, and a lot of risk :-)
Very good point. If I do get more power out of it I'll probably reserve that for a high power map I'll rarely use, if ever - perhaps the occasional drag run.I have to say though, don't get hung up on "Big numbers" even a genuine 300 bhp in a little lightcar like a 25 is plenty of power, realistically how much more could you use? Once you start pushing boost where the ignition numbers take a dive like the stock market recently, really all you are doing is pushing air and fuel through your engine for little gain, and a lot of risk :-)
At the moment it's hard to tell what it will drive like because we didn't bother spending any time on bringing the boost in earlier. As we left it the torque rises very slowly with peak around 5,500rpm!
I actually won't drive it again until I've got the fuelling and cooling where I want it to be. Then it'll go back for mapping and we'll see what happens.
Great to hear - congratulations! Been following from the start, imagine if BRMs came out of the factory like this!
The fixes seem to be easily within your comfort zone given the build thus far, I suppose the next question is what to choose for maps on 'road' vs high speed runs/drag racing.
Good stuff.
The fixes seem to be easily within your comfort zone given the build thus far, I suppose the next question is what to choose for maps on 'road' vs high speed runs/drag racing.
Good stuff.
Good to hear and can't wait to see it do the 400 or close.
Are you sure you want to run that Evans stuff, it seems an easy win to chuck normal coolant in if you have concerns over temps, the head will run cooler in particular.
The other thing I don't like about that stuff is that it's rather flammable..
I tried it in my race car and whilst it's not supposed pressurise as much it does expand a lot, assuming because it's much thicker fluid and my header tank just wasn't big enough to cope with it, it actually managed to damage the oil to water cooler because of this... User error I suppose more than Evans fault, I just assumed it would need the same kind of fill capacity as normal coolant.
Are you sure you want to run that Evans stuff, it seems an easy win to chuck normal coolant in if you have concerns over temps, the head will run cooler in particular.
The other thing I don't like about that stuff is that it's rather flammable..
I tried it in my race car and whilst it's not supposed pressurise as much it does expand a lot, assuming because it's much thicker fluid and my header tank just wasn't big enough to cope with it, it actually managed to damage the oil to water cooler because of this... User error I suppose more than Evans fault, I just assumed it would need the same kind of fill capacity as normal coolant.
Edited by Yazza54 on Monday 25th May 14:36
Mikeeb said:
Doesn’t sound to me like you have oil temp problems at all.
110 degrees under load is well within normal temp ranges.
You're probably right, and on any of my other cars I wouldn't be worried. Although I am conscious this is a K-series with a head and block that's very easy to soften if things get too hot. So I'd prefer a little more head room from that point of view. I wonder if when the running-in is done and it has some nice synthetic oil in there it might run slightly cooler anyway with the lower friction. Obviously it's good to have the oil hot enough to boil away water and contaminants. I'll see if running the coolant closer to 80, combined with post-run-in synthetic oil has things running cooler overall. If it does I may not bother with an oil cooler - I didn't leave myself much room to fit one anyway! 110 degrees under load is well within normal temp ranges.
On the dyno I was a little worried when it hit 117 degrees but mostly because it's filled with running in oil which is much less tolerant of high temperatures. Oil pressure stayed solid though so that's the main thing I guess. When I got back from the mapping I changed the oil while it was warm for fresh running in, in case I do drive it before fixing the issues. I'd like to put a few hundred miles on it before switching to synthetic oil.
Yazza54 said:
Good to hear and can't wait to see it do the 400 or close.
Are you sure you want to run that Evans stuff, it seems an easy win to chuck normal coolant in if you have concerns over temps, the head will run cooler in particular.
The other thing I don't like about that stuff is that it's rather flammable..
I tried it in my race car and whilst it's not supposed pressurise as much it does expand a lot, assuming because it's much thicker fluid and my header tank just wasn't big enough to cope with it, it actually managed to damage the oil to water cooler because of this... User error I suppose more than Evans fault, I just assumed it would need the same kind of fill capacity as normal coolant.
Are you sure you want to run that Evans stuff, it seems an easy win to chuck normal coolant in if you have concerns over temps, the head will run cooler in particular.
The other thing I don't like about that stuff is that it's rather flammable..
I tried it in my race car and whilst it's not supposed pressurise as much it does expand a lot, assuming because it's much thicker fluid and my header tank just wasn't big enough to cope with it, it actually managed to damage the oil to water cooler because of this... User error I suppose more than Evans fault, I just assumed it would need the same kind of fill capacity as normal coolant.
Edited by Yazza54 on Monday 25th May 14:36
Thanks. I'm still undecided and may yet ditch it. I used it purely because of the knarly corrosion some of us have seen with Westwood ductile liners. Interesting about the expansion. I found the level stayed pretty much on the full line the whole time on the dyno. If I have any further issues with it I will bin it. For now I will change the thermostat and see what effect that has.
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