Rover 200 BRM - 1.8 K-Series turbo project
Discussion
Even a strong oat/water mix seems not to prevent the corrosion happening at the top of the liner. Tried non-oat and same problem. It's very strange and only seems to be a problem with ductile iron liners. It may be localised boiling (something Evans doesn't do). Either way, the Evans has been seen to prevent it.
Little update. Quite a lot has been going on in the background over the last few months.
1. Fixed the fuelling issue - removed the swirl pot and external pump setup in favour of a conventional in-tank pump (Walbro 255). It was a lot of work to make it fit properly but it's much more suitable.
2. Ditched the prt thermostat in favor of a simpler conventional stat mounted in the rad top hose. Totally stable coolant temps now. Evans waterless coolant is working well.
3. Fitted an oil cooler
4. Replaced the 52mm throttle body, which was leaking at the spindle, with a 56mm Rover T-series throttle body (from a 220 coupe, I think). In doing so I also removed the Iacv (they don't like boost and I always end up having idle issues). So idle is now controlled by the throttle stop and ignition timing.
So with all that done I went back for more mapping. Decided to go a bit further afield to use EFI Parts in Runcorn - a 500 mile round trip! Chris at EFI has mapped a few of these engines, including my friend Lee's who worked with Omega to design these pistons.
To say I was nervous would be an understatement. Mostly because I was so far from home if anything went wrong. The drive up there was uneventful, albeit the last mapper had not dialled in part-throttle and the closed loop was not quite able to keep afr at 14.7:1 and it kept going lean. So halfway there I plugged in the laptop and put some more fuel in.
Started out at wastegate pressure which saw 200bhp at 5psi. Expected. Started winding the boost in. By 24psi it was obvious exhaust back pressure was going to be the limit. Fueling would need backing off right at the top. Lee had the same issue when he used stock valve springs on a similar sized turbine, so we sort of knew this might happen. More than around 20psi would require changes to the setup.
So at 20psi she made 323bhp and 294lbft torque.
Whilst that is less than this turbo is capable of, and much less than the bottom end is capable of, I'm happy with that. It's a light fwd car and it's quite quick. The torque comes in earlier than before and its just really nice to drive now.
I have three maps. The full power map has boost by gear, so first gear just gives you actuator pressure at 5psi. Second gear gives around 10psi, which is about 250bhp. Third upwards gives 20psi. This configuration helps massively with traction and torque steer, although it could probably take a bit more in second. It's an odd sensation doing a WOT pull from second when you change up to third and it accelerates even harder. The second map just gives actuator pressure in all gears. The third map is mot friendly with an afr that should pass emissions.
This wide range of boost is made possible with a turbosmart dual port internal wastegate actuator controlled by a 4-port boost controller. These can be difficult to control and Chris made a face when he saw it but with such a low base pressure (7psi and minimal preload meaning base pressure is actually more like 5psi) it worked really well.
If I want more power, it will need stiffer exhaust valves springs and a 0.86 turbine housing. If I have to take the head off for any reason, I'll probably do it, but for now I'm happy!
1. Fixed the fuelling issue - removed the swirl pot and external pump setup in favour of a conventional in-tank pump (Walbro 255). It was a lot of work to make it fit properly but it's much more suitable.
2. Ditched the prt thermostat in favor of a simpler conventional stat mounted in the rad top hose. Totally stable coolant temps now. Evans waterless coolant is working well.
3. Fitted an oil cooler
4. Replaced the 52mm throttle body, which was leaking at the spindle, with a 56mm Rover T-series throttle body (from a 220 coupe, I think). In doing so I also removed the Iacv (they don't like boost and I always end up having idle issues). So idle is now controlled by the throttle stop and ignition timing.
So with all that done I went back for more mapping. Decided to go a bit further afield to use EFI Parts in Runcorn - a 500 mile round trip! Chris at EFI has mapped a few of these engines, including my friend Lee's who worked with Omega to design these pistons.
To say I was nervous would be an understatement. Mostly because I was so far from home if anything went wrong. The drive up there was uneventful, albeit the last mapper had not dialled in part-throttle and the closed loop was not quite able to keep afr at 14.7:1 and it kept going lean. So halfway there I plugged in the laptop and put some more fuel in.
Started out at wastegate pressure which saw 200bhp at 5psi. Expected. Started winding the boost in. By 24psi it was obvious exhaust back pressure was going to be the limit. Fueling would need backing off right at the top. Lee had the same issue when he used stock valve springs on a similar sized turbine, so we sort of knew this might happen. More than around 20psi would require changes to the setup.
So at 20psi she made 323bhp and 294lbft torque.
Whilst that is less than this turbo is capable of, and much less than the bottom end is capable of, I'm happy with that. It's a light fwd car and it's quite quick. The torque comes in earlier than before and its just really nice to drive now.
I have three maps. The full power map has boost by gear, so first gear just gives you actuator pressure at 5psi. Second gear gives around 10psi, which is about 250bhp. Third upwards gives 20psi. This configuration helps massively with traction and torque steer, although it could probably take a bit more in second. It's an odd sensation doing a WOT pull from second when you change up to third and it accelerates even harder. The second map just gives actuator pressure in all gears. The third map is mot friendly with an afr that should pass emissions.
This wide range of boost is made possible with a turbosmart dual port internal wastegate actuator controlled by a 4-port boost controller. These can be difficult to control and Chris made a face when he saw it but with such a low base pressure (7psi and minimal preload meaning base pressure is actually more like 5psi) it worked really well.
If I want more power, it will need stiffer exhaust valves springs and a 0.86 turbine housing. If I have to take the head off for any reason, I'll probably do it, but for now I'm happy!
ts itself??Been a year since I posted here so quick little update.
With things being as they are, I've not managed to get the BRM to many shows - displayed at Tunerfest South (Brands) up in a field miles from anywhere and that's about it. Actually hardly driven it at all to be honest. Went for a spin yesterday up to Brands Hatch for the Festival Italia and had a blast.
The engine is still sweet as a nut and sounds epic at full attack. The boost-by-gear works well and I think it could take a bit more boost in second gear (once the handling is sorted).
The handling is actually what let's the car down, which is not good on a car with this much power at the front wheels. I've never been happy with the KW variant 2 coilovers. When I found they were fouling the CV boots at the front, and the rears had play in the bottom mount, I contacted KW who were completely unhelpful. I decided at that point to ditch them in favour of something else. Only other option really is GAZ and that will be a job for next year. I think perhaps the heavy aftermarket wheels are not helping. I may change them for some OZ Ultralegerra at some point, but that's gettign into silly money for something I barely drive!
The other thing I'm not happy with is the paint. The finish is not holding up well at all despite being garaged and handled with extreme care. The main problem is the paint is just so soft and any contact scratches it. Stones chips cover the front even though the car is barely used. At some point it will need a respray but, again, I can't justify that when I barely use it. I might get away with a blow-over and some hard clear coat.
I've also decided I don't like the bonnet vents so they'll go if I ever do repaint.
Quick pic after a clean:
With things being as they are, I've not managed to get the BRM to many shows - displayed at Tunerfest South (Brands) up in a field miles from anywhere and that's about it. Actually hardly driven it at all to be honest. Went for a spin yesterday up to Brands Hatch for the Festival Italia and had a blast.
The engine is still sweet as a nut and sounds epic at full attack. The boost-by-gear works well and I think it could take a bit more boost in second gear (once the handling is sorted).
The handling is actually what let's the car down, which is not good on a car with this much power at the front wheels. I've never been happy with the KW variant 2 coilovers. When I found they were fouling the CV boots at the front, and the rears had play in the bottom mount, I contacted KW who were completely unhelpful. I decided at that point to ditch them in favour of something else. Only other option really is GAZ and that will be a job for next year. I think perhaps the heavy aftermarket wheels are not helping. I may change them for some OZ Ultralegerra at some point, but that's gettign into silly money for something I barely drive!
The other thing I'm not happy with is the paint. The finish is not holding up well at all despite being garaged and handled with extreme care. The main problem is the paint is just so soft and any contact scratches it. Stones chips cover the front even though the car is barely used. At some point it will need a respray but, again, I can't justify that when I barely use it. I might get away with a blow-over and some hard clear coat.
I've also decided I don't like the bonnet vents so they'll go if I ever do repaint.
Quick pic after a clean:
Been following your build, certainly some ups & downs.
Many congrats for following your dreams & getting the car built so well.
Any more updates ?
The VVC turbo route appeals, just trying to decide that or Duratec / Ecoboost route...
As there were a few things that didn't work out as you expected, could you confirm your top-tips "If I were to do it all again I'd...."
Thanks :-)
Many congrats for following your dreams & getting the car built so well.
Any more updates ?
The VVC turbo route appeals, just trying to decide that or Duratec / Ecoboost route...
As there were a few things that didn't work out as you expected, could you confirm your top-tips "If I were to do it all again I'd...."
Thanks :-)
cain-it said:
Been following your build, certainly some ups & downs.
Many congrats for following your dreams & getting the car built so well.
Any more updates ?
The VVC turbo route appeals, just trying to decide that or Duratec / Ecoboost route...
As there were a few things that didn't work out as you expected, could you confirm your top-tips "If I were to do it all again I'd...."
Thanks :-)
Thanks. Not much to update really. Had some issues with the vvc getting stuck on 275 degrees so wouldn't idle. Turned out to be two problems: 1. The cross-shaft that controls the vvc was too tight in the cam ladder so had to get creative with wet and dry to give it more clearance. 2. One of the solenoids that controls it was dead. I'm guessing it was burned out from being energised 100% of the time trying to force the hcu to reduce timing. All this happened a week before the mot which was annoying! Many congrats for following your dreams & getting the car built so well.
Any more updates ?
The VVC turbo route appeals, just trying to decide that or Duratec / Ecoboost route...
As there were a few things that didn't work out as you expected, could you confirm your top-tips "If I were to do it all again I'd...."
Thanks :-)
The only thing left to sort out is the handling. The KW coilovers foul the cv joint boots and at the rear there is play in the bottom mount. They've also never really felt right. Kw offered to look at them but had already said they conform to spec so don't expect anything to come of it and so I never bothered. I'm just going to replace them with Gaz Golds. Then it needs proper setting up by someone that knows what they are doing.
For now she's tucked up for winter. I'll see if funds permit any further fettling next year, but my impreza is just about to go in for a 2.1 forged stroker build with a new turbo and tune.
If I had to do it again I would probably not do it if I'm honest. Or I would have used a more well-known engine and tried to implement some solution to control the torque steer like equal length driveshafts. The vvc offers no benefit to a turbocharged application. I only kept it because it was a brand new head and I didn't want to mess around with sourcing and fitting solid cams. If you're serious about turbo'ing the K-series let me know and I'll put you in touch with the guy who developed these pistons with Omega - they can only be bought through him.
It's been a very fun process and I'm glad I did it, but the end product is wacky in the extreme. It doesn't really fit in anywhere and is just a bit sad and unpopular - like the weird kid at school who ate dirt you know? I wanted to do car shows in it but the most i've achieved is a remote spot with the individual exhibits somewhere - you know that spot at every car show between the disabled parking and back of the catering vans that no-one goes to? I don't have the time to commit to a car club and that scene's not really for me anyway. Tried to enter show and shine at a few events but no luck there either. Covid hasn't helped. I'll take it to the Fast Show at Santa Pod next year and no doubt there will be a few more mg rover meets I can jump on.
Stuballs said:
Thanks. Not much to update really. Had some issues with the vvc getting stuck on 275 degrees so wouldn't idle. Turned out to be two problems: 1. The cross-shaft that controls the vvc was too tight in the cam ladder so had to get creative with wet and dry to give it more clearance. 2. One of the solenoids that controls it was dead. I'm guessing it was burned out from being energised 100% of the time trying to force the hcu to reduce timing. All this happened a week before the mot which was annoying!
The only thing left to sort out is the handling. The KW coilovers foul the cv joint boots and at the rear there is play in the bottom mount. They've also never really felt right. Kw offered to look at them but had already said they conform to spec so don't expect anything to come of it and so I never bothered. I'm just going to replace them with Gaz Golds. Then it needs proper setting up by someone that knows what they are doing.
For now she's tucked up for winter. I'll see if funds permit any further fettling next year, but my impreza is just about to go in for a 2.1 forged stroker build with a new turbo and tune.
If I had to do it again I would probably not do it if I'm honest. Or I would have used a more well-known engine and tried to implement some solution to control the torque steer like equal length driveshafts. The vvc offers no benefit to a turbocharged application. I only kept it because it was a brand new head and I didn't want to mess around with sourcing and fitting solid cams. If you're serious about turbo'ing the K-series let me know and I'll put you in touch with the guy who developed these pistons with Omega - they can only be bought through him.
It's been a very fun process and I'm glad I did it, but the end product is wacky in the extreme. It doesn't really fit in anywhere and is just a bit sad and unpopular - like the weird kid at school who ate dirt you know? I wanted to do car shows in it but the most i've achieved is a remote spot with the individual exhibits somewhere - you know that spot at every car show between the disabled parking and back of the catering vans that no-one goes to? I don't have the time to commit to a car club and that scene's not really for me anyway. Tried to enter show and shine at a few events but no luck there either. Covid hasn't helped. I'll take it to the Fast Show at Santa Pod next year and no doubt there will be a few more mg rover meets I can jump on.
It's a shame you have some reservations over it, but I understand. If it's any consolation the only reason I and others have enjoyed following this build is precisely BECAUSE it's "sad" and "unpopular". Although there are more obvious and excellent alternatives, they aren't half as interesting as the BRM.The only thing left to sort out is the handling. The KW coilovers foul the cv joint boots and at the rear there is play in the bottom mount. They've also never really felt right. Kw offered to look at them but had already said they conform to spec so don't expect anything to come of it and so I never bothered. I'm just going to replace them with Gaz Golds. Then it needs proper setting up by someone that knows what they are doing.
For now she's tucked up for winter. I'll see if funds permit any further fettling next year, but my impreza is just about to go in for a 2.1 forged stroker build with a new turbo and tune.
If I had to do it again I would probably not do it if I'm honest. Or I would have used a more well-known engine and tried to implement some solution to control the torque steer like equal length driveshafts. The vvc offers no benefit to a turbocharged application. I only kept it because it was a brand new head and I didn't want to mess around with sourcing and fitting solid cams. If you're serious about turbo'ing the K-series let me know and I'll put you in touch with the guy who developed these pistons with Omega - they can only be bought through him.
It's been a very fun process and I'm glad I did it, but the end product is wacky in the extreme. It doesn't really fit in anywhere and is just a bit sad and unpopular - like the weird kid at school who ate dirt you know? I wanted to do car shows in it but the most i've achieved is a remote spot with the individual exhibits somewhere - you know that spot at every car show between the disabled parking and back of the catering vans that no-one goes to? I don't have the time to commit to a car club and that scene's not really for me anyway. Tried to enter show and shine at a few events but no luck there either. Covid hasn't helped. I'll take it to the Fast Show at Santa Pod next year and no doubt there will be a few more mg rover meets I can jump on.
Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff