Rover 200 BRM - 1.8 K-Series turbo project
Discussion
C2Red said:
Why Evans; just curious as it’s lower heat transfer properties than water, and combustible I’ve heard from a couple of YouTube videos
Purely to address the corrosion issues some of us have seen with the ductile iron liners we all use. Even guys running oat coolant have seen unusually heavy corrosion of the liners in only a few months. I'm not too concerned about thermal transfer as my rad is enormous and heat control has never been an issue with my setup. Combustibility is a concern.
Big Tomm said:
Having just read your entire thread I am astounded. You have a serious level of dedication to this BRM and it’s very admirable. I would have thrown the towel in at the first engine rebuild. Let alone that bore score. So fair play to you and your dedication. It’s certainly paid off.
I remember my old deputy head at secondary school bought one of these new, it was grounds for continued mocking “because it had a strange orange grill” but as I’ve grown older they have certainly grown on me and I am a fan. Don’t these have a pretty fancy gearbox? Or some sought after diff or something compared to a standard model?
I will follow with continued interest. You appear to be localish to me so I will be sure to keep an eye out. Don’t see many of these now.
Thanks. Glad you enjoyed reading about my journey with this car!I remember my old deputy head at secondary school bought one of these new, it was grounds for continued mocking “because it had a strange orange grill” but as I’ve grown older they have certainly grown on me and I am a fan. Don’t these have a pretty fancy gearbox? Or some sought after diff or something compared to a standard model?
I will follow with continued interest. You appear to be localish to me so I will be sure to keep an eye out. Don’t see many of these now.
The gearbox is a close ratio version of the Rover PG-1 and it has a Torsen limited slip differential. The Lotus Elise S1 boys pay big money for them!
Bright Halo said:
Excellent!
Bet you are pleased.
Yes very relieved. Just need to make sure she moves under her own power and then she's all sorted for the mapping. Bet you are pleased.
Decided to refresh the fuel system and upgrade the 190lph pump to a 255lph. My non-return valve was no longer holding pressure so swapped that too, and whacked in a new filter. Used the opportunity to drain out the year-old (or more!) fuel and fill with fresh v power.
Unfortunately I've discovered an issue with my KW coilovers. Initially noticed the bottom of the strut fouls the cv boot and was wearing the rubber away. Investigating the ride height adjustment (to try to gain clearance) has revealed they don't lower the car nearly as much as they are supposed to. So that's something I'll have to sort after the mapping.
BRM is mapped! It was a very tense day which didn't get off to the best start when the transport let me down and I had to drive the unmapped car with the fresh-built forged engine to the mapper 60 miles away! Luckily I had prepared for this and I made it there OK (aside from the gear linkage detaching itself 5 miles from the mapper requiring a roadside repair which involved robbing bolts and washers from elsewhere on the car).
Spoke to mapper upon arrival and filled him in on the spec and my goals. And so the mapping began. Mapper worked his way through the map as usual and before long we were ready for a power run. Started out with making 196bhp at 5psi. Things were looking good and the rings were mostly bedded in at this point. Time to turn it up. When we upped the boost, a few issues started occurring. Firstly the new Iacv self-destructed - probably from the heat. I had the old one with me so we swapped that in and it worked.
The Zeitronix wideband controller also had a hissy fit and turned itself off at the same time the Iacv died. At the time, I didn't know these were the issues. The mapper switched the engine off, exited the car looking concerned, switched the giant fan off then declared to me "I've broken it". My heart sank and I feared the worst. Thankfully he was just being dramatic. Git. We let things cool down and the wideband came back to life.
So with those issues resolved we soldiered on. Then we hit a really big issue as boost climbed above 14 psi - the fuel pressure would suddenly drop off and things would lean out in the top of the rpm range. Very, very bad, obviously. But luckily no apparent damage. We had a look at the swirl pot setup and there was no obvious problem aside from the fuel being quite hot in the pot. This will need further investigation and I have a few ideas as to what happened. I actually want to swap to an alloy fuel rail going forward anyway as I don't trust the plastic fuel rail with 5 bar fuel pressure!
So, the fuelling issue called time on the fun. We dialled boost back to 12psi and left it there. Didn't actually do another power run at this level. On the last power run when it leaned out up top, it made 312bhp at 19psi. With the correct fuelling it would have been more. The mapper reckoned 400bhp is on the cards.
Other learnings: I need to refit the oil cooler. On the rollers the oil temp was hovering between 100 and 110 degrees under load and even on the road it sits up near 100. I need to change my prt thermostat. It should have the 82 degree stat but once warm the coolant never drops below 90. I have a new 78 degree unit so that will be going on. I run Evans waterless coolant which is less efficiency at transferring heat. The oil cooler should help things. If likes the setup to run cooler overall - this is a K-series after all!
Main takeaway is the engine is strong and smooth. Quietest K-series I've ever heard actually. Big thanks to Vara Technik near Heathrow. Lovely bunch of guys!
Spoke to mapper upon arrival and filled him in on the spec and my goals. And so the mapping began. Mapper worked his way through the map as usual and before long we were ready for a power run. Started out with making 196bhp at 5psi. Things were looking good and the rings were mostly bedded in at this point. Time to turn it up. When we upped the boost, a few issues started occurring. Firstly the new Iacv self-destructed - probably from the heat. I had the old one with me so we swapped that in and it worked.
The Zeitronix wideband controller also had a hissy fit and turned itself off at the same time the Iacv died. At the time, I didn't know these were the issues. The mapper switched the engine off, exited the car looking concerned, switched the giant fan off then declared to me "I've broken it". My heart sank and I feared the worst. Thankfully he was just being dramatic. Git. We let things cool down and the wideband came back to life.
So with those issues resolved we soldiered on. Then we hit a really big issue as boost climbed above 14 psi - the fuel pressure would suddenly drop off and things would lean out in the top of the rpm range. Very, very bad, obviously. But luckily no apparent damage. We had a look at the swirl pot setup and there was no obvious problem aside from the fuel being quite hot in the pot. This will need further investigation and I have a few ideas as to what happened. I actually want to swap to an alloy fuel rail going forward anyway as I don't trust the plastic fuel rail with 5 bar fuel pressure!
So, the fuelling issue called time on the fun. We dialled boost back to 12psi and left it there. Didn't actually do another power run at this level. On the last power run when it leaned out up top, it made 312bhp at 19psi. With the correct fuelling it would have been more. The mapper reckoned 400bhp is on the cards.
Other learnings: I need to refit the oil cooler. On the rollers the oil temp was hovering between 100 and 110 degrees under load and even on the road it sits up near 100. I need to change my prt thermostat. It should have the 82 degree stat but once warm the coolant never drops below 90. I have a new 78 degree unit so that will be going on. I run Evans waterless coolant which is less efficiency at transferring heat. The oil cooler should help things. If likes the setup to run cooler overall - this is a K-series after all!
Main takeaway is the engine is strong and smooth. Quietest K-series I've ever heard actually. Big thanks to Vara Technik near Heathrow. Lovely bunch of guys!
Max_Torque said:
Brilliant stuff! Well worth all the effort to build such a unique car!
I have to say though, don't get hung up on "Big numbers" even a genuine 300 bhp in a little lightcar like a 25 is plenty of power, realistically how much more could you use? Once you start pushing boost where the ignition numbers take a dive like the stock market recently, really all you are doing is pushing air and fuel through your engine for little gain, and a lot of risk :-)
Very good point. If I do get more power out of it I'll probably reserve that for a high power map I'll rarely use, if ever - perhaps the occasional drag run.I have to say though, don't get hung up on "Big numbers" even a genuine 300 bhp in a little lightcar like a 25 is plenty of power, realistically how much more could you use? Once you start pushing boost where the ignition numbers take a dive like the stock market recently, really all you are doing is pushing air and fuel through your engine for little gain, and a lot of risk :-)
At the moment it's hard to tell what it will drive like because we didn't bother spending any time on bringing the boost in earlier. As we left it the torque rises very slowly with peak around 5,500rpm!
I actually won't drive it again until I've got the fuelling and cooling where I want it to be. Then it'll go back for mapping and we'll see what happens.
Mikeeb said:
Doesn’t sound to me like you have oil temp problems at all.
110 degrees under load is well within normal temp ranges.
You're probably right, and on any of my other cars I wouldn't be worried. Although I am conscious this is a K-series with a head and block that's very easy to soften if things get too hot. So I'd prefer a little more head room from that point of view. I wonder if when the running-in is done and it has some nice synthetic oil in there it might run slightly cooler anyway with the lower friction. Obviously it's good to have the oil hot enough to boil away water and contaminants. I'll see if running the coolant closer to 80, combined with post-run-in synthetic oil has things running cooler overall. If it does I may not bother with an oil cooler - I didn't leave myself much room to fit one anyway! 110 degrees under load is well within normal temp ranges.
On the dyno I was a little worried when it hit 117 degrees but mostly because it's filled with running in oil which is much less tolerant of high temperatures. Oil pressure stayed solid though so that's the main thing I guess. When I got back from the mapping I changed the oil while it was warm for fresh running in, in case I do drive it before fixing the issues. I'd like to put a few hundred miles on it before switching to synthetic oil.
Yazza54 said:
Good to hear and can't wait to see it do the 400 or close.
Are you sure you want to run that Evans stuff, it seems an easy win to chuck normal coolant in if you have concerns over temps, the head will run cooler in particular.
The other thing I don't like about that stuff is that it's rather flammable..
I tried it in my race car and whilst it's not supposed pressurise as much it does expand a lot, assuming because it's much thicker fluid and my header tank just wasn't big enough to cope with it, it actually managed to damage the oil to water cooler because of this... User error I suppose more than Evans fault, I just assumed it would need the same kind of fill capacity as normal coolant.
Are you sure you want to run that Evans stuff, it seems an easy win to chuck normal coolant in if you have concerns over temps, the head will run cooler in particular.
The other thing I don't like about that stuff is that it's rather flammable..
I tried it in my race car and whilst it's not supposed pressurise as much it does expand a lot, assuming because it's much thicker fluid and my header tank just wasn't big enough to cope with it, it actually managed to damage the oil to water cooler because of this... User error I suppose more than Evans fault, I just assumed it would need the same kind of fill capacity as normal coolant.
Edited by Yazza54 on Monday 25th May 14:36
Thanks. I'm still undecided and may yet ditch it. I used it purely because of the knarly corrosion some of us have seen with Westwood ductile liners. Interesting about the expansion. I found the level stayed pretty much on the full line the whole time on the dyno. If I have any further issues with it I will bin it. For now I will change the thermostat and see what effect that has.
Even a strong oat/water mix seems not to prevent the corrosion happening at the top of the liner. Tried non-oat and same problem. It's very strange and only seems to be a problem with ductile iron liners. It may be localised boiling (something Evans doesn't do). Either way, the Evans has been seen to prevent it.
Little update. Quite a lot has been going on in the background over the last few months.
1. Fixed the fuelling issue - removed the swirl pot and external pump setup in favour of a conventional in-tank pump (Walbro 255). It was a lot of work to make it fit properly but it's much more suitable.
2. Ditched the prt thermostat in favor of a simpler conventional stat mounted in the rad top hose. Totally stable coolant temps now. Evans waterless coolant is working well.
3. Fitted an oil cooler
4. Replaced the 52mm throttle body, which was leaking at the spindle, with a 56mm Rover T-series throttle body (from a 220 coupe, I think). In doing so I also removed the Iacv (they don't like boost and I always end up having idle issues). So idle is now controlled by the throttle stop and ignition timing.
So with all that done I went back for more mapping. Decided to go a bit further afield to use EFI Parts in Runcorn - a 500 mile round trip! Chris at EFI has mapped a few of these engines, including my friend Lee's who worked with Omega to design these pistons.
To say I was nervous would be an understatement. Mostly because I was so far from home if anything went wrong. The drive up there was uneventful, albeit the last mapper had not dialled in part-throttle and the closed loop was not quite able to keep afr at 14.7:1 and it kept going lean. So halfway there I plugged in the laptop and put some more fuel in.
Started out at wastegate pressure which saw 200bhp at 5psi. Expected. Started winding the boost in. By 24psi it was obvious exhaust back pressure was going to be the limit. Fueling would need backing off right at the top. Lee had the same issue when he used stock valve springs on a similar sized turbine, so we sort of knew this might happen. More than around 20psi would require changes to the setup.
So at 20psi she made 323bhp and 294lbft torque.
Whilst that is less than this turbo is capable of, and much less than the bottom end is capable of, I'm happy with that. It's a light fwd car and it's quite quick. The torque comes in earlier than before and its just really nice to drive now.
I have three maps. The full power map has boost by gear, so first gear just gives you actuator pressure at 5psi. Second gear gives around 10psi, which is about 250bhp. Third upwards gives 20psi. This configuration helps massively with traction and torque steer, although it could probably take a bit more in second. It's an odd sensation doing a WOT pull from second when you change up to third and it accelerates even harder. The second map just gives actuator pressure in all gears. The third map is mot friendly with an afr that should pass emissions.
This wide range of boost is made possible with a turbosmart dual port internal wastegate actuator controlled by a 4-port boost controller. These can be difficult to control and Chris made a face when he saw it but with such a low base pressure (7psi and minimal preload meaning base pressure is actually more like 5psi) it worked really well.
If I want more power, it will need stiffer exhaust valves springs and a 0.86 turbine housing. If I have to take the head off for any reason, I'll probably do it, but for now I'm happy!
1. Fixed the fuelling issue - removed the swirl pot and external pump setup in favour of a conventional in-tank pump (Walbro 255). It was a lot of work to make it fit properly but it's much more suitable.
2. Ditched the prt thermostat in favor of a simpler conventional stat mounted in the rad top hose. Totally stable coolant temps now. Evans waterless coolant is working well.
3. Fitted an oil cooler
4. Replaced the 52mm throttle body, which was leaking at the spindle, with a 56mm Rover T-series throttle body (from a 220 coupe, I think). In doing so I also removed the Iacv (they don't like boost and I always end up having idle issues). So idle is now controlled by the throttle stop and ignition timing.
So with all that done I went back for more mapping. Decided to go a bit further afield to use EFI Parts in Runcorn - a 500 mile round trip! Chris at EFI has mapped a few of these engines, including my friend Lee's who worked with Omega to design these pistons.
To say I was nervous would be an understatement. Mostly because I was so far from home if anything went wrong. The drive up there was uneventful, albeit the last mapper had not dialled in part-throttle and the closed loop was not quite able to keep afr at 14.7:1 and it kept going lean. So halfway there I plugged in the laptop and put some more fuel in.
Started out at wastegate pressure which saw 200bhp at 5psi. Expected. Started winding the boost in. By 24psi it was obvious exhaust back pressure was going to be the limit. Fueling would need backing off right at the top. Lee had the same issue when he used stock valve springs on a similar sized turbine, so we sort of knew this might happen. More than around 20psi would require changes to the setup.
So at 20psi she made 323bhp and 294lbft torque.
Whilst that is less than this turbo is capable of, and much less than the bottom end is capable of, I'm happy with that. It's a light fwd car and it's quite quick. The torque comes in earlier than before and its just really nice to drive now.
I have three maps. The full power map has boost by gear, so first gear just gives you actuator pressure at 5psi. Second gear gives around 10psi, which is about 250bhp. Third upwards gives 20psi. This configuration helps massively with traction and torque steer, although it could probably take a bit more in second. It's an odd sensation doing a WOT pull from second when you change up to third and it accelerates even harder. The second map just gives actuator pressure in all gears. The third map is mot friendly with an afr that should pass emissions.
This wide range of boost is made possible with a turbosmart dual port internal wastegate actuator controlled by a 4-port boost controller. These can be difficult to control and Chris made a face when he saw it but with such a low base pressure (7psi and minimal preload meaning base pressure is actually more like 5psi) it worked really well.
If I want more power, it will need stiffer exhaust valves springs and a 0.86 turbine housing. If I have to take the head off for any reason, I'll probably do it, but for now I'm happy!
Been a year since I posted here so quick little update.
With things being as they are, I've not managed to get the BRM to many shows - displayed at Tunerfest South (Brands) up in a field miles from anywhere and that's about it. Actually hardly driven it at all to be honest. Went for a spin yesterday up to Brands Hatch for the Festival Italia and had a blast.
The engine is still sweet as a nut and sounds epic at full attack. The boost-by-gear works well and I think it could take a bit more boost in second gear (once the handling is sorted).
The handling is actually what let's the car down, which is not good on a car with this much power at the front wheels. I've never been happy with the KW variant 2 coilovers. When I found they were fouling the CV boots at the front, and the rears had play in the bottom mount, I contacted KW who were completely unhelpful. I decided at that point to ditch them in favour of something else. Only other option really is GAZ and that will be a job for next year. I think perhaps the heavy aftermarket wheels are not helping. I may change them for some OZ Ultralegerra at some point, but that's gettign into silly money for something I barely drive!
The other thing I'm not happy with is the paint. The finish is not holding up well at all despite being garaged and handled with extreme care. The main problem is the paint is just so soft and any contact scratches it. Stones chips cover the front even though the car is barely used. At some point it will need a respray but, again, I can't justify that when I barely use it. I might get away with a blow-over and some hard clear coat.
I've also decided I don't like the bonnet vents so they'll go if I ever do repaint.
Quick pic after a clean:
With things being as they are, I've not managed to get the BRM to many shows - displayed at Tunerfest South (Brands) up in a field miles from anywhere and that's about it. Actually hardly driven it at all to be honest. Went for a spin yesterday up to Brands Hatch for the Festival Italia and had a blast.
The engine is still sweet as a nut and sounds epic at full attack. The boost-by-gear works well and I think it could take a bit more boost in second gear (once the handling is sorted).
The handling is actually what let's the car down, which is not good on a car with this much power at the front wheels. I've never been happy with the KW variant 2 coilovers. When I found they were fouling the CV boots at the front, and the rears had play in the bottom mount, I contacted KW who were completely unhelpful. I decided at that point to ditch them in favour of something else. Only other option really is GAZ and that will be a job for next year. I think perhaps the heavy aftermarket wheels are not helping. I may change them for some OZ Ultralegerra at some point, but that's gettign into silly money for something I barely drive!
The other thing I'm not happy with is the paint. The finish is not holding up well at all despite being garaged and handled with extreme care. The main problem is the paint is just so soft and any contact scratches it. Stones chips cover the front even though the car is barely used. At some point it will need a respray but, again, I can't justify that when I barely use it. I might get away with a blow-over and some hard clear coat.
I've also decided I don't like the bonnet vents so they'll go if I ever do repaint.
Quick pic after a clean:
cain-it said:
Been following your build, certainly some ups & downs.
Many congrats for following your dreams & getting the car built so well.
Any more updates ?
The VVC turbo route appeals, just trying to decide that or Duratec / Ecoboost route...
As there were a few things that didn't work out as you expected, could you confirm your top-tips "If I were to do it all again I'd...."
Thanks :-)
Thanks. Not much to update really. Had some issues with the vvc getting stuck on 275 degrees so wouldn't idle. Turned out to be two problems: 1. The cross-shaft that controls the vvc was too tight in the cam ladder so had to get creative with wet and dry to give it more clearance. 2. One of the solenoids that controls it was dead. I'm guessing it was burned out from being energised 100% of the time trying to force the hcu to reduce timing. All this happened a week before the mot which was annoying! Many congrats for following your dreams & getting the car built so well.
Any more updates ?
The VVC turbo route appeals, just trying to decide that or Duratec / Ecoboost route...
As there were a few things that didn't work out as you expected, could you confirm your top-tips "If I were to do it all again I'd...."
Thanks :-)
The only thing left to sort out is the handling. The KW coilovers foul the cv joint boots and at the rear there is play in the bottom mount. They've also never really felt right. Kw offered to look at them but had already said they conform to spec so don't expect anything to come of it and so I never bothered. I'm just going to replace them with Gaz Golds. Then it needs proper setting up by someone that knows what they are doing.
For now she's tucked up for winter. I'll see if funds permit any further fettling next year, but my impreza is just about to go in for a 2.1 forged stroker build with a new turbo and tune.
If I had to do it again I would probably not do it if I'm honest. Or I would have used a more well-known engine and tried to implement some solution to control the torque steer like equal length driveshafts. The vvc offers no benefit to a turbocharged application. I only kept it because it was a brand new head and I didn't want to mess around with sourcing and fitting solid cams. If you're serious about turbo'ing the K-series let me know and I'll put you in touch with the guy who developed these pistons with Omega - they can only be bought through him.
It's been a very fun process and I'm glad I did it, but the end product is wacky in the extreme. It doesn't really fit in anywhere and is just a bit sad and unpopular - like the weird kid at school who ate dirt you know? I wanted to do car shows in it but the most i've achieved is a remote spot with the individual exhibits somewhere - you know that spot at every car show between the disabled parking and back of the catering vans that no-one goes to? I don't have the time to commit to a car club and that scene's not really for me anyway. Tried to enter show and shine at a few events but no luck there either. Covid hasn't helped. I'll take it to the Fast Show at Santa Pod next year and no doubt there will be a few more mg rover meets I can jump on.
Little update. Been out and about a bit in the BRM this year. Pride of Longbridge, Bromley Motoring Pageant and most recently Tunerfest at Brands Hatch where I displayed with the individual exhibits.
At Tunerfest it was quite fun seeing the varying reactions. A lot of people don't know what it is (especially those under 35), but seem to appreciate the clean bodywork and engine bay (and big turbo). I've introduced further confusion with the ZR bodywork. Quite a few guys approached from the side saying something like "oooh a BRM" promptly followed by "oh jesus!" when they saw the engine bay.
The engine and gearbox are holding up well to a fair bit of abuse. Obviously I always warm it up before any big throttle inputs.
Quite enjoying the general craziness of this car at the moment. Every drive is an event with the whooshes, whistles and loud turbo flutter. I really need to find time and money to sort the handling out as it would make for a much better overall drive. That will be a winter job.
At Tunerfest it was quite fun seeing the varying reactions. A lot of people don't know what it is (especially those under 35), but seem to appreciate the clean bodywork and engine bay (and big turbo). I've introduced further confusion with the ZR bodywork. Quite a few guys approached from the side saying something like "oooh a BRM" promptly followed by "oh jesus!" when they saw the engine bay.
The engine and gearbox are holding up well to a fair bit of abuse. Obviously I always warm it up before any big throttle inputs.
Quite enjoying the general craziness of this car at the moment. Every drive is an event with the whooshes, whistles and loud turbo flutter. I really need to find time and money to sort the handling out as it would make for a much better overall drive. That will be a winter job.
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