A V8 at last - my BMW 645Ci
Discussion
McSam said:
Hmm. Several obvious problems there. One would presume water damage. Sure enough, the lamp worked perfectly with all its old hardware and the ballast unit from the working side. Naturally, the only component to have failed would be the one that costs around £100 even on eBay. Anyone got a spare?!
Don't be tempted to buy the non genuine (Bosch I think) parts, I got a cheap one as a stop gap for my old 330's and it made the new pair of bulbs I'd fit not long previous different colours! and they switched on at different rates.When I fit the proper part all was good again.
parabolica said:
My headlights have suddenly misted up in the past week. Is it possible to check/clear the vent holes with everything in place? I don't really have the means or space to dismantle the front of my car at the moment.
Honestly, I'm not sure - I can't visualise the location of the vent pipes on the back of the lamps and I don't have a photo, but I can tell you that mine were clear so not the cause of my condensation. I had some condensation in the right-hand lamp too, despite it having all its covers in place, but it hasn't returned since I had it off the car and thoroughly dried out. The disassembly isn't too bad, I did it on the driveway in perhaps an hour. I'll see if the vents are accessible next time I'm in there.philmots said:
It's bizarre, I was made aware of it from the E61 bearding thread months back, I've just done it again.. £232 for oil and filter, air filter, micro filters and spark plugs!
The offers still stands now, one of the guys had it done IIRC. I really want to get mine done but it's not due while October so seems a waste to get it done now, specially as I'm selling March/April 2017.. I'd rather sell it Having had a recent major service.
Bizarre indeed! If I hadn't already done everything but the oil and filter, I might consider it, but as it is I may as well do that myself now.The offers still stands now, one of the guys had it done IIRC. I really want to get mine done but it's not due while October so seems a waste to get it done now, specially as I'm selling March/April 2017.. I'd rather sell it Having had a recent major service.
Stupidly I didn't note down the part number of the ballast when I had it off the car, but AL 1 307 329 072 01 seems to be the one. Definitely don't want to go down the aftermarket replacement route, only heard bad things about those, but trying my luck with a few cars that are being broken before taking the plunge on a new one.
Ah, nice one. You may want to leave it off entirely, I've heard of people drilling holes in the bottom of the lamps to improve ventilation and all sorts. I think there's very little chance of water ingress through that vent hole, and with the sealing not quite what it should be, they need all the help they can get to dry out.
I noticed someone mentioned contacting ZF on another forum - possibly a Land Rover one, the 6HP26 makes its way into many and varied cars, from the DB9 to the Discovery! - and I thought that would be a nice reliable way to find out which of my gearbox's little foibles were normal. So I found their technical enquiry section, sent them a few questions, and the next day received an excellent and very complete response. I was impressed! For the sake of completeness, roughly reproduced below:
SM: At a cold start (from overnight), the lockup clutch does not seem to engage for the approximately the first 5km or five minutes. At a constant speed and moderate engine load, engine speed is higher than it would usually be for the selected gear, and can drop below the "normal" locked-up speed when engine load is removed. After 5km / five minutes driving, normal lockup behaviour is resumed. Is this a warmup strategy?
ZF: The extended shift points/ delayed upshift and change in converter lock up regulation are all part of the warm-up shift program. This is done to help speed up engine warm up and normal in this application.
SM: At all operating temperatures, reverse gear is selected quite slowly, taking 2-3 seconds to engage. As an example, if stationary in D with the brakes applied, if one selects R and immediately releases the brakes, the car will roll forward for a short time before reverse actually engages. I have been advised this could indicate a low oil level causing slow solenoid operation?
ZF: Boxes being slow to engage reverse i.e. taking a couple of seconds can be normal, depending on the shift system. However if the box is low on oil then it can cause issues.
SM: When stationary in D with the brakes applied, the driveline always “pulls” against the brakes, no matter how long the car is stationary for – the gearbox does not disengage. I understand some variants of the 6HP26 have a “transmission idle control” function that reduces load when stationary in D. Should my application have this function, or is this behaviour correct?
ZF: NIC or Neutral Idle Control, the decoupling of the box while stationary. This is common on newer transmissions. It was used on some of the 6HP transmissions but I’m not sure when it was brought in for BMW. It may even be the case that the vehicle had it but it was coded out with a software update. To find out if it was relevant you would have to speak with a BMW dealer.
SM: Particularly when in manual mode, 3-4 shift under load is not smooth. There are no bangs or apparent movement in the driveline, but 4th gear engages with a jerk that is not felt with other upshifts at any load. I have not heard about this issue on any other 6HP26 vehicles. This occurs even at quite gentle acceleration.
ZF: If you are concerned about the shift quality 3-4 then I would advise getting the adaption values for clutch fill pressures checked. If there are no abnormal pressures and no fault codes then it may be appropriate to carry out and oil and filter changes. Low oil level can also impact shift quality.
If there are abnormal readings then it may be an indication of and internal issue with one of the clutches involved in the 3-4 shift.
SM: Possibly related, lockup performance at moderate load in 3rd and 4th gears does not seem to be correct: when moderate acceleration is demanded from 1500-2000rpm in M3 or M4, engine speed rises to ~3000rpm and holds there until vehicle speed matches, then lockup appears to be achieved. This behaviour does not occur in any other gears, only 3rd and 4th. Please note this does not appear to be a kickdown behaviour, occurring with less than half throttle and giving a constant engine speed rather than revving out in a lower gear.
ZF: This is a bit more difficult. When you depress the accelerator the lock up clutch will open. Once the slip across the converter has stabilised it will start to regulate again. The function isn’t a straight on/off function, rather it is a regulated slip.
You also can’t compare lock up in a 1st generation 6 speed to lock up in a 2nd generation 6 speed or an 8 speed. The transmissions are very sensitive to slip. If there was an issue this would log a DTC.
If there are no recorded DTCs or abnormal adaptions then transmissions do normally respond well to an oil change. Life guard fluid 6 is the correct oil for the transmission. We don't support or recommend anything other than life guard fluid 6. In fact we would advise against any other oil as it can damage the transmission and often results in worse shift quality than the old oil.
If you are changing the oil then the adaptions should be re-set once the new oil is in. This will trigger the adaptions to relearn. Ideally a specific adaption drive should be carried out, however this isn’t always easy to do on public roads.
So it seems most of what it's doing is normal, and the rest should be cured by an oil and filter change and re-learning all the adaptions. I'll make sure to read the adaptions and check they all seem reasonable before they're cleared, in case there's indication of a problem, but with any luck it could be in reasonable shape
I'm particularly interested to see about enabling that "neutral idle control" function. The response suggests that some E63s might have had it - has anyone noticed on their car? If the dragging against the brakes isn't apparent, knocking the selector to neutral would be your best test. In my car, there is a noticeable drop in engine load when taking it out of D. If it was used on any E63, it should be possible to enable it for others.
SM: At a cold start (from overnight), the lockup clutch does not seem to engage for the approximately the first 5km or five minutes. At a constant speed and moderate engine load, engine speed is higher than it would usually be for the selected gear, and can drop below the "normal" locked-up speed when engine load is removed. After 5km / five minutes driving, normal lockup behaviour is resumed. Is this a warmup strategy?
ZF: The extended shift points/ delayed upshift and change in converter lock up regulation are all part of the warm-up shift program. This is done to help speed up engine warm up and normal in this application.
SM: At all operating temperatures, reverse gear is selected quite slowly, taking 2-3 seconds to engage. As an example, if stationary in D with the brakes applied, if one selects R and immediately releases the brakes, the car will roll forward for a short time before reverse actually engages. I have been advised this could indicate a low oil level causing slow solenoid operation?
ZF: Boxes being slow to engage reverse i.e. taking a couple of seconds can be normal, depending on the shift system. However if the box is low on oil then it can cause issues.
SM: When stationary in D with the brakes applied, the driveline always “pulls” against the brakes, no matter how long the car is stationary for – the gearbox does not disengage. I understand some variants of the 6HP26 have a “transmission idle control” function that reduces load when stationary in D. Should my application have this function, or is this behaviour correct?
ZF: NIC or Neutral Idle Control, the decoupling of the box while stationary. This is common on newer transmissions. It was used on some of the 6HP transmissions but I’m not sure when it was brought in for BMW. It may even be the case that the vehicle had it but it was coded out with a software update. To find out if it was relevant you would have to speak with a BMW dealer.
SM: Particularly when in manual mode, 3-4 shift under load is not smooth. There are no bangs or apparent movement in the driveline, but 4th gear engages with a jerk that is not felt with other upshifts at any load. I have not heard about this issue on any other 6HP26 vehicles. This occurs even at quite gentle acceleration.
ZF: If you are concerned about the shift quality 3-4 then I would advise getting the adaption values for clutch fill pressures checked. If there are no abnormal pressures and no fault codes then it may be appropriate to carry out and oil and filter changes. Low oil level can also impact shift quality.
If there are abnormal readings then it may be an indication of and internal issue with one of the clutches involved in the 3-4 shift.
SM: Possibly related, lockup performance at moderate load in 3rd and 4th gears does not seem to be correct: when moderate acceleration is demanded from 1500-2000rpm in M3 or M4, engine speed rises to ~3000rpm and holds there until vehicle speed matches, then lockup appears to be achieved. This behaviour does not occur in any other gears, only 3rd and 4th. Please note this does not appear to be a kickdown behaviour, occurring with less than half throttle and giving a constant engine speed rather than revving out in a lower gear.
ZF: This is a bit more difficult. When you depress the accelerator the lock up clutch will open. Once the slip across the converter has stabilised it will start to regulate again. The function isn’t a straight on/off function, rather it is a regulated slip.
You also can’t compare lock up in a 1st generation 6 speed to lock up in a 2nd generation 6 speed or an 8 speed. The transmissions are very sensitive to slip. If there was an issue this would log a DTC.
If there are no recorded DTCs or abnormal adaptions then transmissions do normally respond well to an oil change. Life guard fluid 6 is the correct oil for the transmission. We don't support or recommend anything other than life guard fluid 6. In fact we would advise against any other oil as it can damage the transmission and often results in worse shift quality than the old oil.
If you are changing the oil then the adaptions should be re-set once the new oil is in. This will trigger the adaptions to relearn. Ideally a specific adaption drive should be carried out, however this isn’t always easy to do on public roads.
So it seems most of what it's doing is normal, and the rest should be cured by an oil and filter change and re-learning all the adaptions. I'll make sure to read the adaptions and check they all seem reasonable before they're cleared, in case there's indication of a problem, but with any luck it could be in reasonable shape
I'm particularly interested to see about enabling that "neutral idle control" function. The response suggests that some E63s might have had it - has anyone noticed on their car? If the dragging against the brakes isn't apparent, knocking the selector to neutral would be your best test. In my car, there is a noticeable drop in engine load when taking it out of D. If it was used on any E63, it should be possible to enable it for others.
Edited by McSam on Monday 18th January 21:54
The drag in D at idle you're describing is completely normal in all autos I've ever owned or driven.
It's called 'creep' and is what makes them so easy in traffic as they'll just roll on at tickover and you just need to cover the brake. When you come to a stop that motion gets lost in the torque converter.
I always leave mine in ad at the lights etc, just with foot on brake.
The idle speed thing you're talking about is probably on newer cars for emissions etc, I'd imagine in normal operation you'd not be aware it's happening.
It's called 'creep' and is what makes them so easy in traffic as they'll just roll on at tickover and you just need to cover the brake. When you come to a stop that motion gets lost in the torque converter.
I always leave mine in ad at the lights etc, just with foot on brake.
The idle speed thing you're talking about is probably on newer cars for emissions etc, I'd imagine in normal operation you'd not be aware it's happening.
In the two auto cars I've had, the transmission dis-engages when you have the brake pedal fully pressed, then you can feel it re-engage when you're releasing the brakes as the pedal comes towards the top of the travel.
Admittedly one of those cars was a twin clutch box where I think it has to do that, but still. I know what Sam is talking about though, you can feel the load on the engine change as it dis-engages and re-engages.
That's a super impressive answer from ZF, I'm very happy to see a company provide a detailed answer as opposed to just saying 'visit your dealer, not our problem'.
Admittedly one of those cars was a twin clutch box where I think it has to do that, but still. I know what Sam is talking about though, you can feel the load on the engine change as it dis-engages and re-engages.
That's a super impressive answer from ZF, I'm very happy to see a company provide a detailed answer as opposed to just saying 'visit your dealer, not our problem'.
philmots said:
I've never driven a TC auto that's disconnected drive, whilst on the brakes in drive, the new ones may do this though.. But Sams is behaving normally.
The 6HP26 is capable of that, I work for an OEM that uses it, hence asking ZF about it in this application! It's only recently become common, but it was possible with our gearbox years ago. You can feel it operating if you're paying attention, and it's clear that our cars don't do it, but the response to another question about it is that BMW would be the only ones to tell when/if it started being used on E63.RDMcG said:
Great cars...bought a manual one when they first came out...loved the sound of that V8......
Just the same as my interior, but with the sports seats and a funny stick with loads of markings on it in the middle! Looks lovely, and a manual V8 is a rare thing indeed, well done for speccing/finding that. In other news, I've just fitted my winter wheels and tyres and gone for a quick drive. Um.. wow. I can't begin to do justice to the transformation that's occured there. It's like driving a V8 cloud! The ride quality is incomparable, before you felt reasonably isolated but were still jerked around by anything but a tiny imperfection. Now, it absorbs everything without even bothering to tell you it's happening. Sharp bumps are blunted right off, and if there's a big dip in the road, the whole body has time to travel and soak it all up. Quite amazing. The road noise has been removed almost completely, before the Bridgestones (particularly the rears) were howling to the point of being irritating on the motorway, but these are so silent I heard wind noise for the first time ever in this car. I'd never noticed that it was completely drowned out by the tyres!
Dynamically it's somewhat interesting, with your turn-in having two stages: initial bite, and then a displacement downwards and out as the sidewalls settle! It sounds odd but feels quite natural and to be honest is quite endearing. Longitudinally, I haven't gone big on the brakes yet but I did find full throttle in second from low revs brought traction control intervention from 3500rpm upwards, and a little bit at the start of third as well. Previously, you wouldn't get any concern in the dry, but I do think the system is a little conservative and I never felt any actual slip, so I might try it again in the "Dynamic" mode to see what it does.
I've gone from non-runflat 19" Bridgestone RE050As to non-runflat 18" Dunlop Wintersport 5s. I shudder to think what the car must have been like on runflat 19s. If anyone's as geeky as me, you might be interested to know the mass effect:
8.0x18 Style 118 Dunlop Wintersport 5 245/45R18 25.7kg
8.5x19 Style 121 Bridgestone RE050A 245/40R19 29.4kg
9.0x19 Style 121 Bridgestone RE050A 275/35R19 29.4kg (weird, huh?!)
It's going to make my 250-mile trip this weekend a lot more pleasant, I can tell you that much!
McSam said:
ust the same as my interior, but with the sports seats and a funny stick with loads of markings on it in the middle! Looks lovely, and a manual V8 is a rare thing indeed, well done for speccing/finding that.
I've gone from non-runflat 19" Bridgestone RE050As to non-runflat 18" Dunlop Wintersport 5s. I shudder to think what the car must have been like on runflat 19s. If anyone's as geeky as me, you might be interested to know the mass effect:
It's going to make my 250-mile trip this weekend a lot more pleasant, I can tell you that much!
I had to order the manual and it was not at all a popular version, but I had had a string of BMWs at the time and liked their shifts. I've gone from non-runflat 19" Bridgestone RE050As to non-runflat 18" Dunlop Wintersport 5s. I shudder to think what the car must have been like on runflat 19s. If anyone's as geeky as me, you might be interested to know the mass effect:
8.0x18 Style 118 Dunlop Wintersport 5 245/45R18 25.7kg
8.5x19 Style 121 Bridgestone RE050A 245/40R19 29.4kg
9.0x19 Style 121 Bridgestone RE050A 275/35R19 29.4kg (weird, huh?!)
It's going to make my 250-mile trip this weekend a lot more pleasant, I can tell you that much!
As for runflats I hated them- they ruined the ride, so I threw on some Michelins and put a tire inflator in the car for emergencies . It was like getting a different, ( and vastly better) car.
carinaman said:
Interesting thread McSam.
Cheers!RDMcG said:
I had to order the manual and it was not at all a popular version, but I had had a string of BMWs at the time and liked their shifts.
As for runflats I hated them- they ruined the ride, so I threw on some Michelins and put a tire inflator in the car for emergencies . It was like getting a different, ( and vastly better) car.
I'm not surprised - on either point! It's interesting that the 650i I drove on 19" Bridgestone runflats didn't seem anywhere near as bad, but perhaps that's just because I didn't drive it long enough to get used to it. I've put just a hair under 1000 miles on this one already!As for runflats I hated them- they ruined the ride, so I threw on some Michelins and put a tire inflator in the car for emergencies . It was like getting a different, ( and vastly better) car.
Mikeeb said:
On the 645 the TC does de-couple, it's not 100% effective you get some drag, but it is better than not at all.
Interesting - I can't feel any effect on my car. It'll be reflashed to the latest software when the gearbox oil change is done, so I'll be keen to see if there's any change.My new (OEM) wheel centre caps arrived, so a quick photo - it was getting dark, the car's filthy and I was just using my phone but you get the idea. Thoughts? I quite like it.
McSam said:
nteresting - I can't feel any effect on my car. It'll be reflashed to the latest software when the gearbox oil change is done, so I'll be keen to see if there's any change.
I couldn't really feel mine either but when stationary on the flat it barely wanted to creep forward. I had mine updated and the oil changed when I bought it too. I didn't drive it much before that was done so I don't know if it changed anything. I think the 650 rpm idle helps with the creep, it certainly increases with the AC on as the idle raises to 800.Well after a month, I finally got to try out the journey I sort of bought this car for - a 110-mile run from my place in Warwickshire to my other half up in Chester. Half is on motorways and the other half on the A41, a nice, flowing road that's almost entirely single-carriageway. My E46 was good at this journey, but it really called for a bigger, more relaxed car that had much more serious overtaking punch.
As it turns out, I had judged this car perfectly. It was sublime. Quiet, refined and effortless on the motorway, and excellent at making serene but very significant progress on the open stretches of the A41. There are a few roundabouts dotted along it and I realised I was giggling a little bit at the thrust coming off them in third gear. Overtaking is a different ball game in this car, if there's anything that even looks like an opportunity, you can be out, past and back in again in half the time you expected. I have had to get out of the habit of going WOT in third before pulling out, though - if you cross the white lines with it fully lit, you're going to get a lot of traction intervention, and if it's remotely damp you're down to half throttle! I did test out the "dynamic" mode on the traction control and found it didn't really allow any more slip in a straight line (perhaps it does in corners), but turning it all off showed that it was indeed being a bit conservative and in the dry, there's only a little hint of slip high in second gear and nowhere else. The car remains totally stable, you can just sense a little overspeed at one of the rear wheels.
Performance aside, I can't think of an easier way to dispatch a journey like that, and I got out at the other end feeling like I'd barely done half an hour at the wheel. Such an enormously capable car - I've properly fallen for it now.
Oh, and the trip computer indicated a 35.7mpg average on that trip... I think it reads about 5% high, but that still makes 34, which is nothing short of absurd!
As it turns out, I had judged this car perfectly. It was sublime. Quiet, refined and effortless on the motorway, and excellent at making serene but very significant progress on the open stretches of the A41. There are a few roundabouts dotted along it and I realised I was giggling a little bit at the thrust coming off them in third gear. Overtaking is a different ball game in this car, if there's anything that even looks like an opportunity, you can be out, past and back in again in half the time you expected. I have had to get out of the habit of going WOT in third before pulling out, though - if you cross the white lines with it fully lit, you're going to get a lot of traction intervention, and if it's remotely damp you're down to half throttle! I did test out the "dynamic" mode on the traction control and found it didn't really allow any more slip in a straight line (perhaps it does in corners), but turning it all off showed that it was indeed being a bit conservative and in the dry, there's only a little hint of slip high in second gear and nowhere else. The car remains totally stable, you can just sense a little overspeed at one of the rear wheels.
Performance aside, I can't think of an easier way to dispatch a journey like that, and I got out at the other end feeling like I'd barely done half an hour at the wheel. Such an enormously capable car - I've properly fallen for it now.
Oh, and the trip computer indicated a 35.7mpg average on that trip... I think it reads about 5% high, but that still makes 34, which is nothing short of absurd!
Hi McSam, I have drunk bid on this and won! I am genuinely shocked by that MPG you've achieved as I will be going to London a few times a year from the wirral (via A41/M54) so hope I can get near your figure. I've been really enjoying the thread and can't wait to pick the car up next week.
Good update.
I had the latest software installed on my 550i when I had the whole car updated, didn't notice a difference at all. Still creeps. It does change if auto climate is on or not though as that changes the idle speed.
ETA - there was a big difference with the new software throughout, and the gearbox too, but it just didn't change anything to do with creep or disengaging drive etc.
I had the latest software installed on my 550i when I had the whole car updated, didn't notice a difference at all. Still creeps. It does change if auto climate is on or not though as that changes the idle speed.
ETA - there was a big difference with the new software throughout, and the gearbox too, but it just didn't change anything to do with creep or disengaging drive etc.
Edited by philmots on Monday 25th January 12:33
drewos said:
Hi McSam, I have drunk bid on this and won! I am genuinely shocked by that MPG you've achieved as I will be going to London a few times a year from the wirral (via A41/M54) so hope I can get near your figure. I've been really enjoying the thread and can't wait to pick the car up next week.
How much did you get that baby for? Considering hanging my 5 series for one but is double the price so quite a risk...Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff