Saab 9-5 Aero - Hybrid Turbo and 9000 Bottom End - 350 bhp
Discussion
Robatr0n said:
If you don't mind me asking, how much was the Maptun clutch?
£258 inc VAT m8, seems robust, bit of hard work to begin with but works well now: http://www.neobrothers.co.uk/maptun-performance-sp...HybridAero said:
Which graph are you referring to?
This is what it's mapped for:
I can assure you it's very driveable with a broad spread of torque; Karl really knows how to map a car.
60-125: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKBcEpyvmPA
30-90ish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UGi8QcAmJ8
Because even that graph shows that you've got max torque at what 3.1k-ish rpm and all your power is done by 5.9k-ish. For that late torque and boost threshold I'd want the power to be holding all the way to 7k+rpm, area under the graph is what makes a car fast. And a 2800rpm powerband is a bit pants really, even a diesel have better powerbands than thatThis is what it's mapped for:
I can assure you it's very driveable with a broad spread of torque; Karl really knows how to map a car.
60-125: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKBcEpyvmPA
30-90ish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UGi8QcAmJ8
HedgeyGedgey said:
Because even that graph shows that you've got max torque at what 3.1k-ish rpm and all your power is done by 5.9k-ish. For that late torque and boost threshold I'd want the power to be holding all the way to 7k+rpm, area under the graph is what makes a car fast. And a 2800rpm powerband is a bit pants really, even a diesel have better powerbands than that
325 NM at 1400 rpm, peaking at 540 NM and dropping to 400 NM by 6000 rpm isn't what I'd call a narrow powerband. Also, remember these Saabs have very long gearing.HedgeyGedgey said:
Because even that graph shows that you've got max torque at what 3.1k-ish rpm and all your power is done by 5.9k-ish. For that late torque and boost threshold I'd want the power to be holding all the way to 7k+rpm, area under the graph is what makes a car fast. And a 2800rpm powerband is a bit pants really, even a diesel have better powerbands than that
HybridAero said:
£258 inc VAT m8, seems robust, bit of hard work to begin with but works well now: http://www.neobrothers.co.uk/maptun-performance-sp...
Thanks for that. 
It's amazing that you would say that the graph posted earlier was good. I'll stand by what I said, it doesn't hold its power and the powerband is very narrow with the torque coming in late and not holding onto it particularly well. An example of another 4 cylinder turbo 
See how it hold the power, this is still a 2.0 and spools roughly the same time as yours but is making 150+bhp at its peak and holding onto it right till over 7k+. Think the limiter is set the standard to 7606rpm on this. That's almost a 5000rpm powerband. Now, compare that with the powerband of less than 3k for the Saab and the saab is making a lot less power at every single point on a smaller turbo (which should make so much more low down power than what it has) makes more sense now doesn't it
See how it hold the power, this is still a 2.0 and spools roughly the same time as yours but is making 150+bhp at its peak and holding onto it right till over 7k+. Think the limiter is set the standard to 7606rpm on this. That's almost a 5000rpm powerband. Now, compare that with the powerband of less than 3k for the Saab and the saab is making a lot less power at every single point on a smaller turbo (which should make so much more low down power than what it has) makes more sense now doesn't it
HedgeyGedgey said:
Because even that graph shows that you've got max torque at what 3.1k-ish rpm and all your power is done by 5.9k-ish. For that late torque and boost threshold I'd want the power to be holding all the way to 7k+rpm, area under the graph is what makes a car fast. And a 2800rpm powerband is a bit pants really, even a diesel have better powerbands than that
HedgeyGedgey said:
It's amazing that you would say that the graph posted earlier was good. I'll stand by what I said, it doesn't hold its power and the powerband is very narrow with the torque coming in late and not holding onto it particularly well. An example of another 4 cylinder turbo
See how it hold the power, this is still a 2.0 and spools roughly the same time as yours but is making 150+bhp at its peak and holding onto it right till over 7k+. Think the limiter is set the standard to 7606rpm on this. That's almost a 5000rpm powerband. Now, compare that with the powerband of less than 3k for the Saab and the saab is making a lot less power at every single point on a smaller turbo (which should make so much more low down power than what it has) makes more sense now doesn't it
But by your 'definition' that's a 3k rpm powerband. Troll?See how it hold the power, this is still a 2.0 and spools roughly the same time as yours but is making 150+bhp at its peak and holding onto it right till over 7k+. Think the limiter is set the standard to 7606rpm on this. That's almost a 5000rpm powerband. Now, compare that with the powerband of less than 3k for the Saab and the saab is making a lot less power at every single point on a smaller turbo (which should make so much more low down power than what it has) makes more sense now doesn't it
HybridAero said:
But by your 'definition' that's a 3k rpm powerband. Troll?
If you read my post you'd see I said that the std rev limiter is 7606rpm, I'm certain that the limiter is 8k on this one. Even then the Saab by the end of the dyno your power is dropping off hugely. The one I posted is still making a decent amount and spools around the same time. We dyno in 3rd (short gearing on, these about 85mph-ish) so on the road in 5th the boost and therfore torque would come in about 500rpm earlier. And convert my numbers to NM like yours and you will see how different the powerbands are. The Saab has a rubbish powerband, factThe car I posted was an Evo 9 with a td05 20g billet wheel on some rather aggressive 272 cams on 1.8bar boost I believe. Yes but if you look your torque is done by 4k-ish and is dropping off hugely with your dyno graph finishing at 6k. This takes 600-ish more rpm to spool, thanks to the cams fitted to get to the 500 uptop. Is still making power at 7250rpm when the operator backs off, limiter on a standard map is at 7606 on these so max torque at what 3800ish and pulling all the way to 7600. Saab max torque at 3k and is dead past 5800! And as I said this dyno was done in 3rd, at a guess yours was 4th with the long gearing of the Saab
HedgeyGedgey said:
The car I posted was an Evo 9 with a td05 20g billet wheel on some rather aggressive 272 cams on 1.8bar boost I believe. Yes but if you look your torque is done by 4k-ish and is dropping off hugely with your dyno graph finishing at 6k. This takes 600-ish more rpm to spool, thanks to the cams fitted to get to the 500 uptop. Is still making power at 7250rpm when the operator backs off, limiter on a standard map is at 7606 on these so max torque at what 3800ish and pulling all the way to 7600. Saab max torque at 3k and is dead past 5800! And as I said this dyno was done in 3rd, at a guess yours was 4th with the long gearing of the Saab
Have a day off Hedgey. You're s
tting on a good thread.RumbleOfThunder said:
HedgeyGedgey said:
The car I posted was an Evo 9 with a td05 20g billet wheel on some rather aggressive 272 cams on 1.8bar boost I believe. Yes but if you look your torque is done by 4k-ish and is dropping off hugely with your dyno graph finishing at 6k. This takes 600-ish more rpm to spool, thanks to the cams fitted to get to the 500 uptop. Is still making power at 7250rpm when the operator backs off, limiter on a standard map is at 7606 on these so max torque at what 3800ish and pulling all the way to 7600. Saab max torque at 3k and is dead past 5800! And as I said this dyno was done in 3rd, at a guess yours was 4th with the long gearing of the Saab
Have a day off Hedgey. You're stting on a good thread.wormus said:
+1 many of us can post dyno graphs that make yours look pathetic. Saabs have great in-gear acceleration where it counts and it's pointless comparing the power delivery of an Evo with that of executive saloon. They aren't built to do the same thing.
All I'm saying is 3k max torque and power being dead after 5.8k is a bit rubbish. Each to their own, the Saab graph is very diesel like and I don't like that, I came from a Vauxhall background and never again. That delivery just doesn't appeal to me where you get the short powerband in a petrol engine, if I wanted that Id play with diesels and get better economy. The graph I posted wasn't mine, nor is it the best on the 4g63 I posted it because it was the first one in my gallery. Area under the graph is what makes a road car fast, so having the power and torque dropping off like that in the Saab let's it down. And dyno graphs shouldn't be compared anyway for numbers (see how they cross differently, measure in different ways as ours always cross at 5250rpm on a DD) they're a tuning tool and that's it. Im not a complete spaz, the smaller turbo of the Saab will spool quicker but at maxboost 3k and boost tailing off at 5.5k ish isn't something I would strive to achieve personally. Bit each to their ownI still don't get why you've popped up on this thread to tell him his graph is rubbish and then attempt to compare it to 510bhp Evo that presents an entirely different driving proposition. They're two completely different cars and are not even comparable.
Saabs are pretty long geared and the 19T doesn't have much lag at all. It's a lovely match and whilst not rapid, it's very usable.
Post your dyno graphs up for the OP to st all over.
Edited to add - you do realise that the Saab red lines at just a fraction over 6000rpm, right?
Saabs are pretty long geared and the 19T doesn't have much lag at all. It's a lovely match and whilst not rapid, it's very usable.
Post your dyno graphs up for the OP to s
t all over.Edited to add - you do realise that the Saab red lines at just a fraction over 6000rpm, right?
HedgeyGedgey said:
All I'm saying is 3k max torque and power being dead after 5.8k is a bit rubbish. Each to their own, the Saab graph is very diesel like and I don't like that, I came from a Vauxhall background and never again. That delivery just doesn't appeal to me where you get the short powerband in a petrol engine, if I wanted that Id play with diesels and get better economy. The graph I posted wasn't mine, nor is it the best on the 4g63 I posted it because it was the first one in my gallery. Area under the graph is what makes a road car fast, so having the power and torque dropping off like that in the Saab let's it down. And dyno graphs shouldn't be compared anyway for numbers (see how they cross differently, measure in different ways as ours always cross at 5250rpm on a DD) they're a tuning tool and that's it. Im not a complete spaz, the smaller turbo of the Saab will spool quicker but at maxboost 3k and boost tailing off at 5.5k ish isn't something I would strive to achieve personally. Bit each to their own
I can see where you're coming from but you can't have it all. I bet that Evo would be a nightmare to drive round town and would need 4k revs on board before any action. I guess it depends what you're looking for. All things considered, a Garrett GTX2871r or GT28rs would be perfect for this Saab as not only would it retain the 19T's low down tractability, but the turbo would keep pumping most of the way to the redline. The 19T will just overspin with any more fuel/boost. The fuel economy isn't great but I only do about 10k miles annually; any more and I'd probably apply for a company car or get a 205 DTurbo and run it on chip oil (which I am seriously considering as a sidekick to the Saab).Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff