Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 V6
Discussion
Before the next trackday I wanted to improve engine breathing.
When I had my Clio 172, I experimented with many differnt setups, various airbox designs, and size/location of air feed pipes. ITG oil type filters are ok but they are messy and a pain to clean and maintain as they get clogged, the K&N cotton filters great when new but again a pain to release the dirt (I didnt find the sprays that effective). I found that the standard paper element filters allowed for just as much free flowing air, and can be thrown in the bin when dirty and cheap to replace. I also learnt the filter must not suck in warm air from engine bay and ideally the air should be as cool and have a short route as possible to the filter.
The filter element in the car looked quite restrictive (the pink one shown below). I replaced it with another better designed free flowing paper element filter from eurocarparts for £5.98.
The Clio 172 has its airbox on the top of the engine bay, I routed bigger twin air feed pipes to the grilles under the headlights, this worked very well and due to the position of the grilles did not let any water in.
I wanted to do something similar for the 156, however the airbox is located at the bottom of the engine bay on n/s in front of the wheelarch, its not a bad location as its a cool area of the bay. Its let down by the air feed pipe that bends and changes direction as it routes up at an angle to headlight level by acting as a kind of water snorkel due to low location. It also constantly changes diameter, starts at 80mm, and goes down to 55mm in places.
I will try running with this pipe removed on the next run, there is some cold indirect air flow going to the box from the grill next to the foglight, and also directly through the main grille to the front closed area of the filter as my car is missing some plastic trim next to the radiator.
This setup will be dangerous in the wet!! So watch this space for a winter solution.
When I had my Clio 172, I experimented with many differnt setups, various airbox designs, and size/location of air feed pipes. ITG oil type filters are ok but they are messy and a pain to clean and maintain as they get clogged, the K&N cotton filters great when new but again a pain to release the dirt (I didnt find the sprays that effective). I found that the standard paper element filters allowed for just as much free flowing air, and can be thrown in the bin when dirty and cheap to replace. I also learnt the filter must not suck in warm air from engine bay and ideally the air should be as cool and have a short route as possible to the filter.
The filter element in the car looked quite restrictive (the pink one shown below). I replaced it with another better designed free flowing paper element filter from eurocarparts for £5.98.
The Clio 172 has its airbox on the top of the engine bay, I routed bigger twin air feed pipes to the grilles under the headlights, this worked very well and due to the position of the grilles did not let any water in.
I wanted to do something similar for the 156, however the airbox is located at the bottom of the engine bay on n/s in front of the wheelarch, its not a bad location as its a cool area of the bay. Its let down by the air feed pipe that bends and changes direction as it routes up at an angle to headlight level by acting as a kind of water snorkel due to low location. It also constantly changes diameter, starts at 80mm, and goes down to 55mm in places.
I will try running with this pipe removed on the next run, there is some cold indirect air flow going to the box from the grill next to the foglight, and also directly through the main grille to the front closed area of the filter as my car is missing some plastic trim next to the radiator.
This setup will be dangerous in the wet!! So watch this space for a winter solution.
I went to Rockingham to put the car through its paces. First trackday where I thought what the hell and was really pushing the car to the end of its limits. I struggled with the chicane onto the banked curve, it was only in the last few mins of the day I realised its better to take it wide and head to the top of the wall and then turn left. I loved running up onto the armcos, but on some of the corners I found gearing was an issue, in 2nd Id hit the limiter, but in 3rd it seemed too low revs to get any power down, which was the opposite to when I did Mallory as the gearing really suited that track. The brakes were performing well, engine temps all behaved, although the heat was getting to me this time I came off every 15-20mins as was sweating like a pig too much in the warm summers evening!! One of the less forgiving issues with the early 156s is poor ventilation, the blowers are rubbish, even with the aircon on max fan speed you cant feel much air through the vents.
The rear roll bar has made a notable difference, hard cornering is improved in general, and coming out of corners under power is much better. The surface at Rockingham is very abrasive, on the last session I could smell burning rubber, my front tyres were starting to fall apart, there was melted rubber in my wheel arch and stuck to back wheels. I did a quick inspection before driving home, tyres were on approx 2mm, I didnt realise until I got home the inside tread on the o/s front was gone and on the n/s parts of the tread had flew off!!
To continue with fast track use, the car will need better lower, stiffer suspension. As you can see from the pics the car dives and leans too much now grip has improved. Also Im pretty sure the body flexes under extreme hard cornering (you can hear the doors creak on the rubber seals!). I think a strut brace at the top of the rear suspension turrets will help a lot. But firstly Im going to source some new tyres/spare wheels to get back on the road!
The rear roll bar has made a notable difference, hard cornering is improved in general, and coming out of corners under power is much better. The surface at Rockingham is very abrasive, on the last session I could smell burning rubber, my front tyres were starting to fall apart, there was melted rubber in my wheel arch and stuck to back wheels. I did a quick inspection before driving home, tyres were on approx 2mm, I didnt realise until I got home the inside tread on the o/s front was gone and on the n/s parts of the tread had flew off!!
To continue with fast track use, the car will need better lower, stiffer suspension. As you can see from the pics the car dives and leans too much now grip has improved. Also Im pretty sure the body flexes under extreme hard cornering (you can hear the doors creak on the rubber seals!). I think a strut brace at the top of the rear suspension turrets will help a lot. But firstly Im going to source some new tyres/spare wheels to get back on the road!
Called into my local rolling road last night as was curious what power I was getting running completely standard and wanted an indicator how healthy the engine was at 88k miles before considering any further modifications. My 2.5 is the later 4X mini cat 192hp cf3 version, only mods was the temp removal of the airbox intake pipe.
The others were getting pretty accurate figures, I got an impressive 204bhp 167ft on the 2nd run. Has anyone else put theirs on a rolling road, do they produce a bit more power than they are supposed to? Maybe it was overeading slightly or mine has been remapped?
The others were getting pretty accurate figures, I got an impressive 204bhp 167ft on the 2nd run. Has anyone else put theirs on a rolling road, do they produce a bit more power than they are supposed to? Maybe it was overeading slightly or mine has been remapped?
Edited by davebem on Saturday 17th September 12:36
Thanks for all the comments.
AlanV6 said:
nice work 
i see you use her like it's supposed to be used.
Did you see my thread, maybe you find some useful tips there http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I remember your original thread on alfa156.net, it helped me decide a 156 would be a suitable track car. I did not forsee that I would get so attached to the car road handling and originality wise, else I would be doing some very similar mods to yours!i see you use her like it's supposed to be used.
Did you see my thread, maybe you find some useful tips there http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Had a close look today, both front side members upto front suspension towers are pushed to right, so the radiator, crossmembers and engine etc is all off centred to right. The engine and radiators are all still ok, it starts but im not running it as one of the pulleys is rubbing on bodywork. The gearbox appears to be ok, but stuck in neutral because the cables have become detached.
Subframe, floor and all suspension ok, steers, all wheels tracking true. All the doors open, infact everything still works!! Oh and the drivers seat the back of it is twisted.
Subframe, floor and all suspension ok, steers, all wheels tracking true. All the doors open, infact everything still works!! Oh and the drivers seat the back of it is twisted.
OpulentBob said:
Would it be vulgar to ask what happened? Looks hefty.
Id love to stick the engine in a Stratos replica, the prices soon tally up though for all the bits!!
Theres a vid of my crash in my mates blog here: https://youtu.be/sBQ8xsljYGg @ 09:45
Pics below show the frontal damage, with the bent side members. Its only bent in front of the strut towers/subframe. The front cross members are actually untouched but approx 25mm off centre!
Theres a vid of my crash in my mates blog here: https://youtu.be/sBQ8xsljYGg @ 09:45
Pics below show the frontal damage, with the bent side members. Its only bent in front of the strut towers/subframe. The front cross members are actually untouched but approx 25mm off centre!
Ive started to dismantle the car. Im going to drop the whole front as 1 piece (subframe, suspension, engine, gearbox) onto a pallet by lifting the body up and over the engine. Strip out the interior and then scrap the body.
It looks like any petrol CF3 (euro3 spec) 156 will be suitable body donor, the early CF2 cars appear to have a different wiring setups and fuel pump.
or
Find another V6 156 and sell my spare engine and stock of parts.
It looks like any petrol CF3 (euro3 spec) 156 will be suitable body donor, the early CF2 cars appear to have a different wiring setups and fuel pump.
or
Find another V6 156 and sell my spare engine and stock of parts.
Ive just driven this down from Preston, ex Alfa press car and has had some interesting previous owners.
A 2.0 Twinspark on 49k, with complementing 10 service stamps (roughly serviced every 5k!) with tan leather and nearly all the options ticked including electric sunroof, alpine cassette player with 8 speakers and cd changer, climate etc. Oddly it doesnt have a front arm rest or rear centre headrest though, and only has a lap belt in the middle.
The twinny handles rather well and obviously isnt as nose heavy as the V6, it also sounds pretty good for a 4 pot, its raspy and has an old school feel and character to it, and its rev happy. I think this one has a cable throttle as its very responsive, when hitting 3000revs it sort of does a pronounced long fart that pushes it further at decent pace. Its not going to win any drag races with a modern diesel, but it feels fast-ish and is very engaging to drive.
The exhaust is knackered and on the drivers side rear floorpan there is some rust where a couple of the vents have turned into holes that will need welding, but the sills and jacking points are all mint. One of the doors has had a bad spray job from some parking damage, but its the same colour code as the other one so hopefully the paint on my 1 good door is a good match to this one.
Ive already replaced a cracked foglight and put new badges on.
Ive got wood.....
A 2.0 Twinspark on 49k, with complementing 10 service stamps (roughly serviced every 5k!) with tan leather and nearly all the options ticked including electric sunroof, alpine cassette player with 8 speakers and cd changer, climate etc. Oddly it doesnt have a front arm rest or rear centre headrest though, and only has a lap belt in the middle.
The twinny handles rather well and obviously isnt as nose heavy as the V6, it also sounds pretty good for a 4 pot, its raspy and has an old school feel and character to it, and its rev happy. I think this one has a cable throttle as its very responsive, when hitting 3000revs it sort of does a pronounced long fart that pushes it further at decent pace. Its not going to win any drag races with a modern diesel, but it feels fast-ish and is very engaging to drive.
The exhaust is knackered and on the drivers side rear floorpan there is some rust where a couple of the vents have turned into holes that will need welding, but the sills and jacking points are all mint. One of the doors has had a bad spray job from some parking damage, but its the same colour code as the other one so hopefully the paint on my 1 good door is a good match to this one.
Ive already replaced a cracked foglight and put new badges on.
Ive got wood.....
Edited by davebem on Sunday 27th November 20:58
Thought Id update this thread with progress, I had both cars in garage over christmas and didnt really get any chances to spend time in the garage. Last weekend I put the twinny on the drive under a cover and finally started dismantling the V6.
The interior is out, exhaust off, fuel drained. Everything is disconnected from the engine which was very straight forward, and the body is on stands while the engine, subframe assembly etc is resting on a pallett.
Im just waiting to borrow a engine hoist from a mate, and need to hire a pallet truck. Im not sure how Im going to get the subframe-less car back out the garage yet....any suggestions?
All that will be left will be the bodyshell, as she is rust free Im also going to cut out the floor sections as these maybe of some use for repairing the donor.
Broken left hand side engine mount:
As above a couple of parts in engine bay were broken, the airbox was smashed to bits, already have a spare one of those, but I need:
- Left hand engine mount (the existing one is bent)
- Plastic oil breather fitting from front bank - hard to get as nobody wants to break a whole engine.
- Coolant tank
Also while everything is off I might as well consider the following:
- Cat-less CF2 manifolds
- Upgrade Anti roll bar mounts
- Replace/upgrade oil cooler.
- Check condition of cambelt (it was only done in sep 2015).
The interior is out, exhaust off, fuel drained. Everything is disconnected from the engine which was very straight forward, and the body is on stands while the engine, subframe assembly etc is resting on a pallett.
Im just waiting to borrow a engine hoist from a mate, and need to hire a pallet truck. Im not sure how Im going to get the subframe-less car back out the garage yet....any suggestions?
All that will be left will be the bodyshell, as she is rust free Im also going to cut out the floor sections as these maybe of some use for repairing the donor.
Broken left hand side engine mount:
As above a couple of parts in engine bay were broken, the airbox was smashed to bits, already have a spare one of those, but I need:
- Left hand engine mount (the existing one is bent)
- Plastic oil breather fitting from front bank - hard to get as nobody wants to break a whole engine.
- Coolant tank
Also while everything is off I might as well consider the following:
- Cat-less CF2 manifolds
- Upgrade Anti roll bar mounts
- Replace/upgrade oil cooler.
- Check condition of cambelt (it was only done in sep 2015).
^ thanks, the wiring loom is the only thing bothering me. Im hoping the body wiring loom for the donor is compatable with the engine loom for the V6. I havnt got behind the dash yet to see whats different. Despite my own advice earlier in this thread the donor is a CF2 and my V6 is a CF3. Theres also a couple of other differences, the CF3s appear to have a different key system, they also have a fuel cut off switch linked to fuel pump, fly-by wire throttle and different ecu location. I guess ill need to transfer the dash clocks, lock barrels and central locking module too.
The engine is now out, didnt need a hoist in the end, I just supported the front on various stands and blocks of wood, then borrowed a pallet truck and slid the engine along with the subframe and suspension all forward.
I also used the pallet truck to move the body out of the garage and onto my drive. It only fell off once.
While my garage was free, I had to replace the front wishbones on my wifes 500, why cant the Italians ever get suspension bushes right?
...couldnt help but think that this would make a much more interesting project!
Engine and car meet for first time:
Incase you ever wandered what the back of a Alfa v6 looks like
I think I should have marked the position the rack was to the steering column?
I also used the pallet truck to move the body out of the garage and onto my drive. It only fell off once.
While my garage was free, I had to replace the front wishbones on my wifes 500, why cant the Italians ever get suspension bushes right?
...couldnt help but think that this would make a much more interesting project!
Engine and car meet for first time:
Incase you ever wandered what the back of a Alfa v6 looks like
I think I should have marked the position the rack was to the steering column?
Zombie said:
Neither the rack or the column are "keyed" on the 156, only the 147 / GT. So if the wheel is in the wrong position all you have to do is take it off and reposition it. As it's a T reg it won't have stability control which means you also won't have to reset the steering angle sensor - It doesn't have one.
I'd fit the rack first BTW. Before anything else.
Thanks Ill make a note of that. I think I may have to replace the whole loom, Ive started labelling the connectors, I havnt had the dash off yet to see if the engine loom is separate to the body loom. The ecu's are in a different position, the V6 has a bosch one on the top plenum. The twinnys doesnt appear to be in the engine bay, havnt found it yet!...I'd fit the rack first BTW. Before anything else.
The twinny has knackered exhaust, suspension, running gear and radiator, but the engine is is very strong and runs as sweet as a nut, its really growing on me, hadnt counted on that!! Im almost at a dilema, but I checked around and nobody really wants the 2.5 V6 engine on its own as the 3.0 or 3.2 is more desirable. Ive looked at loads of 2.5 156s for sale and they are all knackered, such a shame, a 2.5 with a sunroof and all the extras the twinny has is the ultimate 156 for me. I think id have a better chance of selling a Twinny engine on its own, its a very strong one, only on 50k.
PS good point about the brake lines, I know they rust where they bend round the bottom of the side members, it doesnt help that the scuttle panel drainage channels drip water on them all day long! Luckily the braking systems between the 2 cars are identical.
Edited by davebem on Sunday 5th February 18:25
I think Ive figured out the wiring after spending nearly all day wresting with the dash. The 156 has an impressive amount of sound deadening! Theres 3 or 4 different looms:
The engine bay loom comes in through the bulkhead near the brake master cylinder, most of the connections go to the fusebox, theres also a couple of connections to the dash(ignition) and a branch over to the other side for something.
There is a seperate body loom which goes down the drivers side, all around the rear and back round the other side which serves all the doors, interior lighting and rear lights.
The dash has its own loom and theres an airbag ecu and loom too.
They all intersect into the fusebox on the drivers side. Hopefully the Twinny should have the same setup?
The engine bay loom comes in through the bulkhead near the brake master cylinder, most of the connections go to the fusebox, theres also a couple of connections to the dash(ignition) and a branch over to the other side for something.
There is a seperate body loom which goes down the drivers side, all around the rear and back round the other side which serves all the doors, interior lighting and rear lights.
The dash has its own loom and theres an airbag ecu and loom too.
They all intersect into the fusebox on the drivers side. Hopefully the Twinny should have the same setup?
Ive finally started to make progress after a busy winter/spring (working on my house).
Ive removed the twinspark engine. Ive also bought some bargain Eibach springs, some new track rod ends and (another) new coolant bottle. Im also trying to justify or offset somewhere the funds for some wizard catless manifolds, and the downpipes need replacing too really to do a proper job.
The twinny will be strapped to the pallet and will be going up for sale soon. Im probably going to sell the red leather too, as the tan has really grown on me!
Before the V6 is fitted, the paint in the engine bay has blistered on the top of the side members and slam panel causing surface rust....Ive not seen this before on a 156, Im currently in the process of rubbing it down, applying a zinc undercoat and respraying.
Other engine bay preperation involves:
- Rust proofing bottom of side members and potentially check if any repairs needed.
- Fitting the V6 air con pipes and coolant pipes.
- Fitting the bracket for the V6 vacuum and fuel vapour pipes.
- I need to fit a heatshield on the bulkhead to protect the loom from the V6 rear bank manifold.
- Fit the V6 fuel vapour canister (the V6 one has some sort of valve on it, the twinnes doesnt).
- Fit the V6 engine bay loom.
Unfortunately the twinny loom is routed differently on the passenger side and goes under the abs pump, through one of the bulkhead to shock tower strut supports, I havnt figured out how they did this in the factory or how Im going to remove it without cutting it!!
Ive removed the twinspark engine. Ive also bought some bargain Eibach springs, some new track rod ends and (another) new coolant bottle. Im also trying to justify or offset somewhere the funds for some wizard catless manifolds, and the downpipes need replacing too really to do a proper job.
The twinny will be strapped to the pallet and will be going up for sale soon. Im probably going to sell the red leather too, as the tan has really grown on me!
Before the V6 is fitted, the paint in the engine bay has blistered on the top of the side members and slam panel causing surface rust....Ive not seen this before on a 156, Im currently in the process of rubbing it down, applying a zinc undercoat and respraying.
Other engine bay preperation involves:
- Rust proofing bottom of side members and potentially check if any repairs needed.
- Fitting the V6 air con pipes and coolant pipes.
- Fitting the bracket for the V6 vacuum and fuel vapour pipes.
- I need to fit a heatshield on the bulkhead to protect the loom from the V6 rear bank manifold.
- Fit the V6 fuel vapour canister (the V6 one has some sort of valve on it, the twinnes doesnt).
- Fit the V6 engine bay loom.
Unfortunately the twinny loom is routed differently on the passenger side and goes under the abs pump, through one of the bulkhead to shock tower strut supports, I havnt figured out how they did this in the factory or how Im going to remove it without cutting it!!
Rust update: One of the main problems with the 156 is rust. The outer body panels were galvanised (except maybe the roof) and the lower body and underfloor had a thick layer of underseal applied (although the quality of application of this varies through different years). However the bodyshells themselves had poor preperation and some of the methods used in the factory are flawed (which I will come onto in another post when I get to the rear floor pans), in certain areas the underseal doesnt take to the body and water gets behind it and it starts rusting away and peeling.
My original V6 didnt have any issues, for some reason the 51 plate cars Ive seen are the best, if you are looking for a 156 go for the late 2001 cars. Most of the others including later cars have issues. After inspection of the front, the sills, jacking points, and front floor pans are fine, including the wing bottoms, however the bottoms of the side members look like I have just got to them in time.
Theres heavy suface rust, Ive chopped off the underseal until clean metal is found, I will then apply some bilthamber rust converter and re-apply some seal. Im quite lucky because Ive seen a few go in this area and normally the brackets holding the abs wires end up falling off, but these are still solid.
A plus point is the brake lines are mint! Another common issue on the older cars.
Finally the front wing/horn and cooler mounts were badly corroded, I already had a newish one on my original V6 (although a bit twisted from the crash, but got it straigtened out), I sourced the other side cheaply from the German ebay.
My original V6 didnt have any issues, for some reason the 51 plate cars Ive seen are the best, if you are looking for a 156 go for the late 2001 cars. Most of the others including later cars have issues. After inspection of the front, the sills, jacking points, and front floor pans are fine, including the wing bottoms, however the bottoms of the side members look like I have just got to them in time.
Theres heavy suface rust, Ive chopped off the underseal until clean metal is found, I will then apply some bilthamber rust converter and re-apply some seal. Im quite lucky because Ive seen a few go in this area and normally the brackets holding the abs wires end up falling off, but these are still solid.
A plus point is the brake lines are mint! Another common issue on the older cars.
Finally the front wing/horn and cooler mounts were badly corroded, I already had a newish one on my original V6 (although a bit twisted from the crash, but got it straigtened out), I sourced the other side cheaply from the German ebay.
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