1992 Peugeot 106 XSi - Strip, Respray, Rebuild OEM+
Discussion
Really hard to find a running XSi, especially one in good condition. I wanted 'a spare' for donor parts but even solid non-runners go for a couple of grand now and I probably see <5 a year.
Part of me still thinks I should have found a low mile, flat arch, S1 and dropped a Honda K20 in it... probably would have cost less and been a cracking sleeper
Could do with some help on this one to be honest but I shall persevere, at least until lockdown is over and then see what is left! At that point, may see who is about to help. Maybe 2021 might be a better deadline.
Just reading up on looms etc. Doesn't seem toooooo hard (he says)!
Part of me still thinks I should have found a low mile, flat arch, S1 and dropped a Honda K20 in it... probably would have cost less and been a cracking sleeper
Could do with some help on this one to be honest but I shall persevere, at least until lockdown is over and then see what is left! At that point, may see who is about to help. Maybe 2021 might be a better deadline.
Just reading up on looms etc. Doesn't seem toooooo hard (he says)!
Some more progress today. Decided to strip the inlet back off. Gives me access to the loom and the steering rack.
A bit up and down today. On the positive - the wiring loom doesn't look too daunting and there aren't too many broken plugs.
Downsides are multiple...
Decided to have a look under the cam cover after it first ran last week. There seemed to be some water and mayo around but the 'standing liquid' you see is (at least mostly) clean oil from when it was filled:
Mayo on head bolt:
Cam cover appears to have already developed some rust inside and there was condensation:
So, is that 4yrs of being outside, condensation, etc boiling off or is the engine hiding something else? Are the liners not seated correctly, could the block be cracked somewhere or the head? Or perhaps it's nothing. Cleaned it up a bit and put the cam cover back on. The sooner it is running, the sooner I can work all this stuff out.
Manifold on the bench (as well as the radiator fan mount for refurb):
Annoyingly - the stripping of the manifold for cleaning etc was going well and then one of the throttle body bolts and one of the accelerator cable mount bolts started spinning their rivnuts in the plastic manifold - grrrrrrr.
Decided to take a spare manifold of yet another spare XSi engine I have. Found a very odd throttle plate on it's TB:
Is that off another model where they tried to limit the power, something like a Quickie?
The TB on that manifold is also damaged... at this point I realised that if I can't get the TB and accelerator cable mount off the original manifold then I wasn't going to be able to build this one up. Groan.
So, moved onto some other things like taking a look at the idle air valve, which looked grotty. Thankfully I bought a new one, all those years back:
Also decided to pull the blue/green XSi injectors for refurb and also a set of brown Rallye injectors that came on the "Cup" engine. That was easy enough but it then got a bit weird when I took a look at the FPRs in each fuel rail.
According to a thread on the 106 Rallye Forum:
XSi Injectors - Bosch 703 (blue/green) 149.2cc at 3bar
Rallye Injectors - Weber iw 052 (brown) 140cc at 3bar
However, the 1.4 xsi apparently uses a 2.5bar FPR, which gives approximately 124.3cc. So, less flowrate (despite the bigger injector) than the slightly more powerful Rallye. Makes sense.
Now, I have a new 2.5bar FPR in a box, which is good... But on the XSi fuel rail there was a 3bar FPR and on the "Cup" (Rallye head) fuel rail, there was a 2.5bar FPR. So, is the poor running, or some of it, the fact that the engine was probably over-fueling the old, small valve roller head? Could it be over-fueling the new head?
Either way - the brand new 2.5bar FPR will go back in with the refurbed XSi injectors and the refurbed Rallye injectors and spare 3bar FPR will be kept in drawer for if/when we look at more power with the high lift cam... also in that drawer.
Another reason for poor running could be the wiring. Perhaps not as bad as I thought. The ambient air temp sensor plug is hanging on for dear life:
The crank sensor plug has certainly seen better days:
the engine bay fuse wiring looks interesting. A spaded red wire of about 1in long slipped over a terminal and the heavy gauge yellow wire going somewhere on its own:
I can also now try and trace this mystery yellow wire (what is it with these yellow wires?) that was hanging to the back in the engine bay, kind of tied-up to the TPV.
The only thing I can think of, without doing the tracing, is something to do with the oil temp sensor that should be in the XSi sump, which I don't have on this engine.
The rest of the wiring looks pretty good to be fair. Even the crank sensor looks like it would do the job. Could that ambient air temp sensor be shorting and causing poor running? Maybe I will try and de/re-pin that one.
All thoughts/ideas welcome!
A bit up and down today. On the positive - the wiring loom doesn't look too daunting and there aren't too many broken plugs.
Downsides are multiple...
Decided to have a look under the cam cover after it first ran last week. There seemed to be some water and mayo around but the 'standing liquid' you see is (at least mostly) clean oil from when it was filled:
Mayo on head bolt:
Cam cover appears to have already developed some rust inside and there was condensation:
So, is that 4yrs of being outside, condensation, etc boiling off or is the engine hiding something else? Are the liners not seated correctly, could the block be cracked somewhere or the head? Or perhaps it's nothing. Cleaned it up a bit and put the cam cover back on. The sooner it is running, the sooner I can work all this stuff out.
Manifold on the bench (as well as the radiator fan mount for refurb):
Annoyingly - the stripping of the manifold for cleaning etc was going well and then one of the throttle body bolts and one of the accelerator cable mount bolts started spinning their rivnuts in the plastic manifold - grrrrrrr.
Decided to take a spare manifold of yet another spare XSi engine I have. Found a very odd throttle plate on it's TB:
Is that off another model where they tried to limit the power, something like a Quickie?
The TB on that manifold is also damaged... at this point I realised that if I can't get the TB and accelerator cable mount off the original manifold then I wasn't going to be able to build this one up. Groan.
So, moved onto some other things like taking a look at the idle air valve, which looked grotty. Thankfully I bought a new one, all those years back:
Also decided to pull the blue/green XSi injectors for refurb and also a set of brown Rallye injectors that came on the "Cup" engine. That was easy enough but it then got a bit weird when I took a look at the FPRs in each fuel rail.
According to a thread on the 106 Rallye Forum:
XSi Injectors - Bosch 703 (blue/green) 149.2cc at 3bar
Rallye Injectors - Weber iw 052 (brown) 140cc at 3bar
However, the 1.4 xsi apparently uses a 2.5bar FPR, which gives approximately 124.3cc. So, less flowrate (despite the bigger injector) than the slightly more powerful Rallye. Makes sense.
Now, I have a new 2.5bar FPR in a box, which is good... But on the XSi fuel rail there was a 3bar FPR and on the "Cup" (Rallye head) fuel rail, there was a 2.5bar FPR. So, is the poor running, or some of it, the fact that the engine was probably over-fueling the old, small valve roller head? Could it be over-fueling the new head?
Either way - the brand new 2.5bar FPR will go back in with the refurbed XSi injectors and the refurbed Rallye injectors and spare 3bar FPR will be kept in drawer for if/when we look at more power with the high lift cam... also in that drawer.
Another reason for poor running could be the wiring. Perhaps not as bad as I thought. The ambient air temp sensor plug is hanging on for dear life:
The crank sensor plug has certainly seen better days:
the engine bay fuse wiring looks interesting. A spaded red wire of about 1in long slipped over a terminal and the heavy gauge yellow wire going somewhere on its own:
I can also now try and trace this mystery yellow wire (what is it with these yellow wires?) that was hanging to the back in the engine bay, kind of tied-up to the TPV.
The only thing I can think of, without doing the tracing, is something to do with the oil temp sensor that should be in the XSi sump, which I don't have on this engine.
The rest of the wiring looks pretty good to be fair. Even the crank sensor looks like it would do the job. Could that ambient air temp sensor be shorting and causing poor running? Maybe I will try and de/re-pin that one.
All thoughts/ideas welcome!
Edited by dom9 on Saturday 2nd May 18:24
Ltjonmclane said:
Only just found this thread, looking forward to seeing it up and running! I’ve had two rallye’s, the Rallye Register forum is an absolute font of knowledge if you haven’t been on there already. Every combination of block, head, inlets, exhausts, gearboxes etc has been tried and tested on there, but that was maybe 7-8 years ago, so not sure who’s still on the site, definitely worth a dig around on there.
Thank you 
I've spent a fair amount of time searching the Rallye forum. It's where I found the spare engines (I think - so long ago now). I do find it good for engine stuff but it is very quiet these days. The site seemed to be down yesterday so need to check today.So, pic heavy progress for Friday and Saturday...
Thought I would start putting the inlet manifold back together, after our fight last time, with the new idle air valve and some new sensors like the ambient air temp and rad fan switch. Also added some new fuel lines, FPR, etc and gave things a bit of a clean while I wait for the refurbished fuel injectors to return:
Also decided to tackle that ambient air temp. sensor plug. Picked it apart using a rusty Stanley knife and went at it with shaky hangover hands and a soldering iron (online wine tasting last night - weird).
It'll do for now (hopefully) but a new Bosch JPT mini timer plug in grey has been ordered with the crimp connections etc to do it 'properly'. But if that doesn't turn up before the injectors - I needed to do 'something' to satisfy me it wasn't that plug causing running issues, for the next fire up:
I then decided to have a go at some aesthetics. Was tired of the red cam cover. Don't think it fitted in really. So, attacked another red spare with some paint stripper and grey high temp. paint - quite happy with the results really. Excuse oily hand prints when it's on the car:
So, a box turned up from Germany (I think). Some of you may remember I just couldn't get the steering rod end off the pass. side and the new drivers side had died in the last 4 years so I decided that, since I have the new fast rack to fit, I might as well just pull the whole steering rack off.
It wasn't too bad a job. The column pinch connection fought me a bit but the 3 torx bolts holding the rack to the shell came out surprisingly easily. Not relishing getting it back in on my own but I'll worry about that once it has been rebuilt:
So far, so good... I don't want to tempt fate but things do seem to be going a bit smoother now but we shall see... usually something decides to bite me when I think I am making progress.
Might attack the fuel filter tomorrow and maybe even the exhaust as I have the Pugsport on the shelf and have the outrageous hope that the engine will fire and run nicely with the new sensor plug, FPR and injectors!
If not... the inlet is coming off again and I really, really will pull the wiring loom off this time and run through it. Loom tape is in the ether somewhere along with a few other bits and bobs.
Edited by dom9 on Saturday 9th May 16:43
-01SQ- said:
This is great,
My first car was a 1.1 N reg Escapade ( even had the 5 speed box ) No rev counter but a big clock on the dash. absolutely loved it ! then came the MR2 so got rid of it... wish i never had though to be honest.
Great build and thread!
My first car was a 1.1 N reg Escapade ( even had the 5 speed box ) No rev counter but a big clock on the dash. absolutely loved it ! then came the MR2 so got rid of it... wish i never had though to be honest.
Great build and thread!
Ltjonmclane said:
Some great progress there, keep it up!
Thanks guys! No progress today as I just didn't fancy crawling under the car in the slightly strange weather we have this afternoon.Still waiting on some odds and sods to turn up. Feels strangely close to being MOT-able... well, brakes and lighting to sort first... and that's if the engine runs ok. So, maybe not then
Ltjonmclane said:
Have you managed to change the fuel filter yet? That caused a few weird running issues on mine when it was parked in the garage for a while.
No but that's next on the list and is one of my suspects... that and the fuel pump. The weird thing was that it revved so well without the vacuum attached to the FPR. I think idle could be accounted for with some of those sensors but when it stopped revving up, it felt like a fuel delivery issue. Looks like the weather is improving so this weekend will be the fuel filter, bolt the inlet back on, some more fresh fuel and test fire again. If that goes well, will re-tape the loom and get on with the steering rack. I need to lower the rear beam... may just be easier to buy a refurbished one already set up as they're pretty cheap (<£200) really.
If/when we ever go back to work - there shouldn't be too much to do for MOT so I may just drop it at a garage to ensure it gets done. I don't have Brake pipe flaring tools for example.
[spoiler] It runs!! Once fuel had circulated; it idled and loved to rev!! [spoiler]
So, bit of a quiet week while I waited on the injectors to return, which they did. Good service by EFI Parts during COVID.
All injectors look well matched for flowrate and functioning nicely. The Rallye ones needed the service, by the looks of things. Wonder if that's why the supposedly new liners in the spare 'Cup' engine look so black and sooty and the engine wasn't in a car? The injectors weren't fueling correctly and were stuck open, perhaps. Or closed but soot suggests too much fuel.
Rallye - Weber iw 052 (brown) 140cc at 3bar:
XSi - Bosch 703 (blue/green) 149.2cc at 3bar (the ones in the car):
All injectors tend to be a couple of cc/min over book spec (~+2%) but that's no issue at all and probably within the flowrate measurement error.
Fuel rail going back together:
So, how we started the day:
Progress:
Buttoned back up:
Now, that should have probably been 30-60mins work but... something always has to go wrong!
The old fuel filter hose ('top'/out end) really, really didn't want to be parted from the fuel filter. Destroyed about 10mm of the hose to get it off but there was just about enough left with enough access to get the new filter tightened onto a 'good bit'. I'd obviously replace that section of hose in it's entirety but laying on the floor, with the car on jacks - I just didn't have the access or visibility. No leaks though and clearly the V-Power is flowing nicely.
New battery has still not arrived so some jump leads were thrown over to the Q3 and the engine spun over a few times without the ECU connected to make sure everything was behaving as it should. No issues there at all so I decided to throw the ECU on and see what happened...
Considering the fuel system had been depressurised for a week and the system was 'empty', it actually started pretty quickly and idled quite nicely. A little low but that can be easily sorted I suspect. Now, we had an ok idle last time out so the big test was whether it would idle AND rev.
It revs like a beast! Loves to rev! Whips round to the rev limiter much quicker than expected. I did wonder if this engine might be a bit low compression as it has flat top pistons and I should have measured the head height (got too excited and forgot, will get the compression measured/right for engine 2) before it went back on... but then the 'Cup' engine had flat top pistons so perhaps this head had a heavy skim to get the CR up?
At least the timing seems good or not obviously wrong. I have a vernier pulley but, again, maybe that will be saved for engine 2 and my lumpy cam.
Now, it did cut out after a few trips up the rev counter as it seemed to want to go back to an even lower idle but the radiator wasn't in (no cooling beyond oil - wasn't run long) so who knows what the temp sensors etc thought and it was idling low when cold anyway (maybe not a surprise if it was set up for the old roller head).
So, what was the problem last week? I am not sure we will find out as I swapped so much out but I did find another loom plug (green oil temp sensor, side of the head, but could be water) that was a bit worn and may have been shorting, so applied some loom tape.
Still tempted to pull the whole engine loom off and go through it wire-by-wire but with no obvious issues today I doubt there is a major electrical issue hiding.
Parts fixed/changed since last fire up:
Next job is to get a radiator in and see if it continues running nicely or even better. I might actually circulate some water without the top hose connected to make sure all that white 'stuff' from when the HG went has been flushed out. I don't want to block a new radiator or leave it in there to sit in the thermostat or elsewhere.
After that... The inlet comes back off yet again! Need to get the access to the steering rack back.
In the meantime, I'll see if I can find some complete headlight looms etc to try and sort those rat's nests out. I'll then rebuild the rack with the Quaife quick rack kit and get it all back together.
Once that is done... we're 'close' to final touches and getting it on the road. At that point it will be a rolling restoration, I think. I have learned from this that unless a project has a good size garage - you have to keep 'em moving and running and do updates/repairs when the weather is good!
So, bit of a quiet week while I waited on the injectors to return, which they did. Good service by EFI Parts during COVID.
All injectors look well matched for flowrate and functioning nicely. The Rallye ones needed the service, by the looks of things. Wonder if that's why the supposedly new liners in the spare 'Cup' engine look so black and sooty and the engine wasn't in a car? The injectors weren't fueling correctly and were stuck open, perhaps. Or closed but soot suggests too much fuel.
Rallye - Weber iw 052 (brown) 140cc at 3bar:
XSi - Bosch 703 (blue/green) 149.2cc at 3bar (the ones in the car):
All injectors tend to be a couple of cc/min over book spec (~+2%) but that's no issue at all and probably within the flowrate measurement error.
Fuel rail going back together:
So, how we started the day:
Progress:
Buttoned back up:
Now, that should have probably been 30-60mins work but... something always has to go wrong!
The old fuel filter hose ('top'/out end) really, really didn't want to be parted from the fuel filter. Destroyed about 10mm of the hose to get it off but there was just about enough left with enough access to get the new filter tightened onto a 'good bit'. I'd obviously replace that section of hose in it's entirety but laying on the floor, with the car on jacks - I just didn't have the access or visibility. No leaks though and clearly the V-Power is flowing nicely.
New battery has still not arrived so some jump leads were thrown over to the Q3 and the engine spun over a few times without the ECU connected to make sure everything was behaving as it should. No issues there at all so I decided to throw the ECU on and see what happened...
Considering the fuel system had been depressurised for a week and the system was 'empty', it actually started pretty quickly and idled quite nicely. A little low but that can be easily sorted I suspect. Now, we had an ok idle last time out so the big test was whether it would idle AND rev.
It revs like a beast! Loves to rev! Whips round to the rev limiter much quicker than expected. I did wonder if this engine might be a bit low compression as it has flat top pistons and I should have measured the head height (got too excited and forgot, will get the compression measured/right for engine 2) before it went back on... but then the 'Cup' engine had flat top pistons so perhaps this head had a heavy skim to get the CR up?
At least the timing seems good or not obviously wrong. I have a vernier pulley but, again, maybe that will be saved for engine 2 and my lumpy cam.
Now, it did cut out after a few trips up the rev counter as it seemed to want to go back to an even lower idle but the radiator wasn't in (no cooling beyond oil - wasn't run long) so who knows what the temp sensors etc thought and it was idling low when cold anyway (maybe not a surprise if it was set up for the old roller head).
So, what was the problem last week? I am not sure we will find out as I swapped so much out but I did find another loom plug (green oil temp sensor, side of the head, but could be water) that was a bit worn and may have been shorting, so applied some loom tape.
Still tempted to pull the whole engine loom off and go through it wire-by-wire but with no obvious issues today I doubt there is a major electrical issue hiding.
Parts fixed/changed since last fire up:
- New fuel filter - old one looked nasty and the car seemed to be struggling to get fuel
- New 2.5bar fuel pressure regulator (FPR) - old one was found to be 3bar
- New sections of fuel hose - they were ugly
- 4 x refurbished fuel injectors - also looked a bit ugly and may have been a fueling problem
- 2 x fixed engine loom sensor plugs - worn through, possibly shorting or not reading correctly
- New ambient air temp sensor - looked old, might as well for <£10
- New idle control valve - looked minging, found one years ago for a reasonable price (they're not cheap)
- Spare airbox with a standard filter in it - the old one didn't have the airbox and the top section clips were broken with a Piper-X zip-tied in
- Cleaned breather hoses - they were a bit skanky
Next job is to get a radiator in and see if it continues running nicely or even better. I might actually circulate some water without the top hose connected to make sure all that white 'stuff' from when the HG went has been flushed out. I don't want to block a new radiator or leave it in there to sit in the thermostat or elsewhere.
After that... The inlet comes back off yet again! Need to get the access to the steering rack back.
In the meantime, I'll see if I can find some complete headlight looms etc to try and sort those rat's nests out. I'll then rebuild the rack with the Quaife quick rack kit and get it all back together.
Once that is done... we're 'close' to final touches and getting it on the road. At that point it will be a rolling restoration, I think. I have learned from this that unless a project has a good size garage - you have to keep 'em moving and running and do updates/repairs when the weather is good!
Thanks chaps - all hijacks welcome!
So... Bad times!
Gave the engine block a flush through with water, with no thermostat, until it ran clear, plumbed the radiator in and fired it. Settled into a reasonable idle and revved like a beast again. Thermostat back in at this point.
Sadly, it was still cutting out after being revved and would struggle to hold a hot idle. Unplugged the water temp sensor and the revs raised a little and then dropped, so it seemed to be reading from there ok.
Unplugged the idle control valve and the revs raised to 4k-ish and then drop to 2k-ish and just kept doing that, so plugged it back in, where it struggled to hold 500rpm or so. That's definitely doing 'something'.
Decided some new/more V-Power was in order as the fuel gauge was still barely moving. No dice.
Then I noticed the cam cover started getting oily water droplets on it. Weird. Where could they be coming from?
Anyway - long idle, thermostat opens and it dies after some throttle again so pulled the radiator cap off and it chucks a load of water out. Pulled the oil cap off and lots of mayo and ugly looking oil:
Not good. No white or otherwise smoke from the exhaust though.
But back to the cam cover getting droplet, on revving they were coming out of the coil pack bolt hole, to the top in this pic. Yes, I need some bolts in there but how/why is that happening??? Crack in the head somewhere? Bolt overtightened and let the water into the cam seal/oil gallery?
Can see where I've wiped the cover and a load of oily water between the coil pack and the cam cover:
So, that head is coming back off. Very frustrating.
Is it simply a warped head or bad seal? Did I damage the gasket or not clean the faces well? Or is there something more sinister at play like a cracked liner or even cracked head. Possibly the latter with the weird leak at the coil pack.
Lucky I have a spare, 3rd engine, I guess! Maybe some machine shops are open now and could skim one (or two) and check 'em over. Clearly having a spare ready to go isn't going to be a bad thing, even if it's the small bearing roller head.
A waste of head bolts and gasket but better to know now before I think it's "done" .
Will pull the head back off tomorrow and see if there is anything to be seen. Might chuck it in the ultrasonic cleaner as that may make it easier to spot a crack, if it's oil and carbon free.
This "cup" engine has been nothing but trouble. I guess it's the perils of buying 2nd hand and not seeing and hearing them run.
Fingers crossed the head on the iron block/3rd engine is good but I have low hopes at this stage! Will consider pulling the whole thing and throwing it at a pro after the next go. At least then I can get the domed XSi pistons in and some sort of confirmation it's good to go.
Gaaaaaaaaaaah.
So... Bad times!
Gave the engine block a flush through with water, with no thermostat, until it ran clear, plumbed the radiator in and fired it. Settled into a reasonable idle and revved like a beast again. Thermostat back in at this point.
Sadly, it was still cutting out after being revved and would struggle to hold a hot idle. Unplugged the water temp sensor and the revs raised a little and then dropped, so it seemed to be reading from there ok.
Unplugged the idle control valve and the revs raised to 4k-ish and then drop to 2k-ish and just kept doing that, so plugged it back in, where it struggled to hold 500rpm or so. That's definitely doing 'something'.
Decided some new/more V-Power was in order as the fuel gauge was still barely moving. No dice.
Then I noticed the cam cover started getting oily water droplets on it. Weird. Where could they be coming from?
Anyway - long idle, thermostat opens and it dies after some throttle again so pulled the radiator cap off and it chucks a load of water out. Pulled the oil cap off and lots of mayo and ugly looking oil:
Not good. No white or otherwise smoke from the exhaust though.
But back to the cam cover getting droplet, on revving they were coming out of the coil pack bolt hole, to the top in this pic. Yes, I need some bolts in there but how/why is that happening??? Crack in the head somewhere? Bolt overtightened and let the water into the cam seal/oil gallery?
Can see where I've wiped the cover and a load of oily water between the coil pack and the cam cover:
So, that head is coming back off. Very frustrating.
Is it simply a warped head or bad seal? Did I damage the gasket or not clean the faces well? Or is there something more sinister at play like a cracked liner or even cracked head. Possibly the latter with the weird leak at the coil pack.
Lucky I have a spare, 3rd engine, I guess! Maybe some machine shops are open now and could skim one (or two) and check 'em over. Clearly having a spare ready to go isn't going to be a bad thing, even if it's the small bearing roller head.
A waste of head bolts and gasket but better to know now before I think it's "done" .
Will pull the head back off tomorrow and see if there is anything to be seen. Might chuck it in the ultrasonic cleaner as that may make it easier to spot a crack, if it's oil and carbon free.
This "cup" engine has been nothing but trouble. I guess it's the perils of buying 2nd hand and not seeing and hearing them run.
Fingers crossed the head on the iron block/3rd engine is good but I have low hopes at this stage! Will consider pulling the whole thing and throwing it at a pro after the next go. At least then I can get the domed XSi pistons in and some sort of confirmation it's good to go.
Gaaaaaaaaaaah.
Hey Baz - great to hear from you! Must be 11yrs since the 996 was built as I moved to Singapore and then Houston in 2010/2012! Time flies when you're having fun. Well, wasn't always fun but home since 2014, which is good!
A yellow GTi? Lovely! Definitely get after it! I'm not sure this thread will be providing much inspiration at the moment but once you've taken it apart and put it back together a dozen times; tasks are less daunting and it moves quite quickly.
Although I have the garage, it serves as a workshop so everything done on the car is done outside and I'd be too embarrassed to post what it looks like at the moment! Let's just say we have a lot of trees here!
I think tomorrow may be the day to whip the head back off. The back is a little sore and I can see SWMBO has gardening on the mind. Also don't want to leave a head off the car for days while I decide what to do or work out what's wrong. I guess I could drop the roller head back on to keep it 'sealed'.
A yellow GTi? Lovely! Definitely get after it! I'm not sure this thread will be providing much inspiration at the moment but once you've taken it apart and put it back together a dozen times; tasks are less daunting and it moves quite quickly.
Although I have the garage, it serves as a workshop so everything done on the car is done outside and I'd be too embarrassed to post what it looks like at the moment! Let's just say we have a lot of trees here!
I think tomorrow may be the day to whip the head back off. The back is a little sore and I can see SWMBO has gardening on the mind. Also don't want to leave a head off the car for days while I decide what to do or work out what's wrong. I guess I could drop the roller head back on to keep it 'sealed'.
73 Duchess said:
Dom, it must be 11 years, where does time go? I've got great gen from your thread. The first thing is give it a good oil service etc before tackling the hard bits. Delighted I stumbled upon this.
Baz
I want to say that the 996 was finished in '09/'10... a long time ago! Many cars have come and gone in that time... even a period without any cars! I'll keep going with this but it does seem like there's a fair chance this engine is scrap. An 8v built on a 1.6 16v bottom end sounds fun… I don't know why I love the idea of an 8v head so much, a 16v conversion is probably less painful than this!Baz
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
if you are interested about 8v engine specs, my race engine was built by TI motorsport near Reading and there is a blog of the build including pics. I am not going to link it here, but it is relatively findable via google. 138 hp was the end result, on a 1600 S2 rallye block with S1 inlet manifold and MBE ecu.
As for your idling /rev's/ gunk problems have you checked that the block is not warped? It may not be the head that is the issue, or it may be both ...
138bhp is a good result without TBs I'd say. Will have a Google for that - thank you. I do have an iron block (original XSi) here, in case of warping, but it may be missing a few bits that may be hard to come by. Was really bought for the head, rods and pistons. As for your idling /rev's/ gunk problems have you checked that the block is not warped? It may not be the head that is the issue, or it may be both ...
Every chance the block in the car is warped as it had been run dry before I got it and I guess these blocks can be known for it. Perhaps the "Cup" block is ok and it would actually be my saviour but I have low hopes, with the state it was in internally.
Tempted to find a low miles 1.4 alloy block engine from maybe a later 206 and rebuild it with the XSi internals and spare head - can anyone remember when the bolt pattern changed back to 106 style? Or I assume a Quicksilver has the right bellhousing bolt pattern...?
A '92 1.4 XSi was on eBay for breaking with a few bits listed, including headlight looms... started talking to the seller to get a package together... and someone else buys the looms BIN and apparently will take the rest. He also had a running engine with it's loom etc, which i'd have taken for backup, which is why we were discussing it and I didn't hit the button.
Lesson learned - if there's something you need - hit BIN. Don't ask questions, just BIN. If they arrive f
ked, like at least one of my engines, chalk it up to experience. Oh well... only another few years to wait for parts to appear.
Lesson learned - if there's something you need - hit BIN. Don't ask questions, just BIN. If they arrive f
ked, like at least one of my engines, chalk it up to experience. Oh well... only another few years to wait for parts to appear.Kitchski said:
I'm glad to see it moving on again, but one thing......the fuel hose. NOOOOOO! That's the dodgy stuff (by the look of it!)
Talk to me, fella - replaced like for like, marked up correctly, etc. Will replace if a bad idea but much more robust than what came off.Could do without finishing it... and then it burning down and it's all coming apart again anyway...
Who am I kidding? It's never getting finished at this rate
Need to pull the head back off but have a big loss of enthusiasm at the moment
The drop links and rod ends themselves seem fine (obviously, the car hasn't moved) but the perishing rubber is crazy!
Good advice on the fuel hose - thank you. It's only those short-ish lengths that have been replaced for now, so easily replaced again.
Have you got any ideas on the head - how the hell could it be spraying oily water from a coil pack bolt hole? Cylinder 1 seems to be the problem child.
Mild enthusiasm has returned after the eBay disappointment... So, will pull that head off the car, pull the 2nd spare XSi head off the spare iron block engine and strip and clean all 3 (incl. the roller head) in the ultrasonic bath, over the next few days, and see what I can see. Pics to come.
I had a bad feeling about this head when it went on. Tempted to then get all 3 skimmed/checked, build a new engine with the best one and put the others away (if the machine shop confirms they're good) for when the inevitable happens in the future.
I'll check to see if the liners are slightly proud of the block, when the head is off the car, and look for HG damage. Need to get to the source of the problem so I can avoid it next time.
There is a low miles 8v TU5 1.6 engine on eBay and another on FB marketplace... I am getting bad ideas if I am starting the engine build from scratch. Rallye S2+ engine spec may be nice...
Good advice on the fuel hose - thank you. It's only those short-ish lengths that have been replaced for now, so easily replaced again.
Have you got any ideas on the head - how the hell could it be spraying oily water from a coil pack bolt hole? Cylinder 1 seems to be the problem child.
Mild enthusiasm has returned after the eBay disappointment... So, will pull that head off the car, pull the 2nd spare XSi head off the spare iron block engine and strip and clean all 3 (incl. the roller head) in the ultrasonic bath, over the next few days, and see what I can see. Pics to come.
I had a bad feeling about this head when it went on. Tempted to then get all 3 skimmed/checked, build a new engine with the best one and put the others away (if the machine shop confirms they're good) for when the inevitable happens in the future.
I'll check to see if the liners are slightly proud of the block, when the head is off the car, and look for HG damage. Need to get to the source of the problem so I can avoid it next time.
There is a low miles 8v TU5 1.6 engine on eBay and another on FB marketplace... I am getting bad ideas if I am starting the engine build from scratch. Rallye S2+ engine spec may be nice...
Ltjonmclane said:
Keep the faith! It’ll be worth it in the end. If it helps, you and this thread have given me the kick up the arse to start looking for a lock up to start a 106 build. House moves, work moves, life etc have all meant it’s been put to the back of the queue. Rallye and Gti values mean I’m going to start with the most solid boggo one I can find unless I stumble on an xsi cheap enough.
Well, if this inspires others to get a few on the road - it can't be a bad thing Right, this afternoon was practice head strip down - the old 'roller' head that was on the car when I got it, the 'Z04'.
Here is how we started the afternoon:
|https://thumbsnap.com/7umD8Lfj[/url]The plugs were first out... looking pretty sorry for themselves:
[url]Had a look down the "Cup" engine bores, since that's where the head had been resting. They look far from 'new':
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/xJ585zN5[/url][url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/1RcNxy87[/url]Z04 roller followers:
Cam oil cover thing - we can now see why oil might squirt out of that coil pack mounting hole. It needs a bolt in - it goes through the casting!
Thermostat cover you're probably sick of seeing by now:
Going quite smoothly until this point and then... bolt snapped! And I can't get it out at all!
How it looked stripped and then in the ultrasonic cleaner for a bit:
Pulled it out and thought I'd look at the size of the ports (they look tiny) Vs. an inlet gasket.
Lots of meat showing here (Z04 'roller' head):
Held the rubber gasket up to an XSi head, which has comparatively massive inlet ports:
So, good head stripping practice for an XSi head and now I have got some spare thermostat/oil covers.
The 'roller' head just needs go in the bin, I think. No real value to it for me with its tiny ports and roller cam. They're ten a penny second hand.
Other than the snapped bolt, which I guess may have been cross-threaded by a previous owner or from the factory... It wasn't too hard to strip down, thus - we move onto an XSi head, which I'll get skimmed once clean.
I also put the Clio V6 on charge... so not a wasted day! And I found out my valve spring compressor won't work for this head, so I need another!
Will re-write the response. This is very odd.
Not a problem at all - can't expect to have my hand held on a forum
I was quite pleased about finding that coil pack bolt hole goes through the casting (and is meant to), in some ways. But what squirted out was definitely not just oil, which you would expect. Need to order some more bolts of the right size. No wonder everyone rounds them - they must have some serious loctite.
The roller head will basically go in the bin...what has been seen cannot be unseen. I couldn't live with those tiny ports.
No oil/water heat exchanger, that I know of. I thought that was just a 16v rad top hose thing. Well, I say none but I guess I need to check the back of the block in case there is something like a 3-way split radiator hose lurking on the back side of the block.
I could just use the iron block motor (in the inlet port pic) in it's entirety (after a strip, check and any necessary refurb) but I am missing some annoying parts like the bolt on water inlet (outlet?) on the back of the block where the bottom radiator hose would connect (I presume - only have ally engines for reference). On that basis, an iron block from a 1.6 does tempt me if I am adding the weight anyway and I would buy one 'complete' after these lessons and add a refurbed XSi head.
Else, the simplest thing (unless I pull the head off the iron block and find that engine is internally good) is to steal the rods and pistons, get new liners for the "cup" engine and bench build that with new bearings etc. People seem to have run a similar combo without issue before. Saves aggressively skimming the XSi heads, which are not now very common, to get by with flat top pistons.
If I fail on my next efforts... Will probably farm it out anyway. If the engine never runs well... the project is failed!
I must say though - although I think the hot idle issue is compression related - it does seem odd I wasn't getting any steam out the exhaust. The oil is fully 'wet' so it could be a faulty gasket between an oil gallery hole and coolant hole but that's got to be unusual with a brand new gasket and those areas are not under much strain. I could have damaged it on installation though. The radiator did pressure up a little but I'd expect that as it probably wasn't fully bled, being the first fire up.
I don't think the oil level has changed much (i.e. all the water isn't hiding in there) and when I drained the rad yesterday, a lot of water came out, which says to me that the cylinder liner rubber seals are not leaking and the water didn't look oily, albeit it may be hard to tell. I'll the check the level again.
I think this all screams some sort of HG issue which is affecting compression and water/oil mixing. Or, is that a warped head/block maybe stopping the HG sealing. A head skim and iron block would probably cure all these things but it's more work for me
Dave Baker would tell me not to keep persevering with the ally block!
Hope that works... apologies if it reads oddly - was done with quote formatting etc.
Not a problem at all - can't expect to have my hand held on a forum
I was quite pleased about finding that coil pack bolt hole goes through the casting (and is meant to), in some ways. But what squirted out was definitely not just oil, which you would expect. Need to order some more bolts of the right size. No wonder everyone rounds them - they must have some serious loctite.
The roller head will basically go in the bin...what has been seen cannot be unseen. I couldn't live with those tiny ports.
No oil/water heat exchanger, that I know of. I thought that was just a 16v rad top hose thing. Well, I say none but I guess I need to check the back of the block in case there is something like a 3-way split radiator hose lurking on the back side of the block.
I could just use the iron block motor (in the inlet port pic) in it's entirety (after a strip, check and any necessary refurb) but I am missing some annoying parts like the bolt on water inlet (outlet?) on the back of the block where the bottom radiator hose would connect (I presume - only have ally engines for reference). On that basis, an iron block from a 1.6 does tempt me if I am adding the weight anyway and I would buy one 'complete' after these lessons and add a refurbed XSi head.
Else, the simplest thing (unless I pull the head off the iron block and find that engine is internally good) is to steal the rods and pistons, get new liners for the "cup" engine and bench build that with new bearings etc. People seem to have run a similar combo without issue before. Saves aggressively skimming the XSi heads, which are not now very common, to get by with flat top pistons.
If I fail on my next efforts... Will probably farm it out anyway. If the engine never runs well... the project is failed!
I must say though - although I think the hot idle issue is compression related - it does seem odd I wasn't getting any steam out the exhaust. The oil is fully 'wet' so it could be a faulty gasket between an oil gallery hole and coolant hole but that's got to be unusual with a brand new gasket and those areas are not under much strain. I could have damaged it on installation though. The radiator did pressure up a little but I'd expect that as it probably wasn't fully bled, being the first fire up.
I don't think the oil level has changed much (i.e. all the water isn't hiding in there) and when I drained the rad yesterday, a lot of water came out, which says to me that the cylinder liner rubber seals are not leaking and the water didn't look oily, albeit it may be hard to tell. I'll the check the level again.
I think this all screams some sort of HG issue which is affecting compression and water/oil mixing. Or, is that a warped head/block maybe stopping the HG sealing. A head skim and iron block would probably cure all these things but it's more work for me
Dave Baker would tell me not to keep persevering with the ally block!
Hope that works... apologies if it reads oddly - was done with quote formatting etc.
thiscocks said:
Unless I've missed something I'd personally just stick with the oe iron block xsi engine- atleast you know what you've got then. Hopefully the bores will be good then you can just get some new rings maybe do the crank bearings ect and maybe polish the head up and get new valve seals ect and it should go a treat! I spent loads on my old Rallye S1 engine on custom management ect but although it was good when it worked, the oem spec engine was just as nice in use and probably better on the road.
The engine in the car is an ally block (probably 306 75hp spec), so the difficulty is lifting/dropping it and getting it out of there. The 'spare' iron block isn't original to that car, but another of unknown provenance. Supposedly rebuilt but when I pull the head, we shall see. Let's face it - I have not had the best of luck with these engines. If I rebuild one from scratch (which is fine) then I'll get a crane in. The iron block is bloody heavy though. Can pick an aluminium engine up and put it on the bench myself... An iron block - no way! I can remember picking up a Pinto boat anchor when I built my first engine at 18... I was in better shape 23yrs ago!
The more I write, the more I think going back to the iron block is the way forward, except I am missing some of the ancillary bits like the block->rad connection. I'd probably still want another iron block engine (even a £150 FB marketplace special) to make sure I have all the bits. It's worth it to me. The XSi engine I thought I would get from eBay, but lost out on, was only £200 including the ancillaries and loom
OEM is best but I did like the idea of a lighter nose i.e. ally block. But Dave Baker (the guru of us Peugeot fiends, in my 205 days, 15yrs ago) did tell me to stick with the iron block. I didn't ignore him, per se, but when the car came with an ally block... it was just a lot less work. Or looked it.
Custom management would be cool, as things have more than moved on in almost 30yrs but I'll make sure the engine is solid engine first!
If I go iron block... I fancy going 1.6 for the torque bump. Would make me feel better for the weight penalty. There is a 23k motor on Facebook Marketplace
To be fair... probably a worse advert for my skills! 
I never saw that engine! I don't use saxo search terms! Looks like a good deal. I'd think getting a pro to put one back together with my best parts and new rings, bearings, machining, gaskets, etc would cost that!
I don't want to think about it but I'm probably not far off that in 'wasted' parts... gulp!
It'll get there. Let's see what Engine 3 has hidden. My luck is due to turn and I did rather throw that last head on... if in doubt; build the engine in its entirety yourself on the bench and then you know it's good.
The more I think about it... the more I fancy a TU5 8v block... or is that giving up too soon?
Always wanted some bike carbs. Bought some blackbird carbs back in 2004 or something. Think they even came to America with me when I moved there... Think they disappeared in a house move way back when!
I never saw that engine! I don't use saxo search terms! Looks like a good deal. I'd think getting a pro to put one back together with my best parts and new rings, bearings, machining, gaskets, etc would cost that!
I don't want to think about it but I'm probably not far off that in 'wasted' parts... gulp!
It'll get there. Let's see what Engine 3 has hidden. My luck is due to turn and I did rather throw that last head on... if in doubt; build the engine in its entirety yourself on the bench and then you know it's good.
The more I think about it... the more I fancy a TU5 8v block... or is that giving up too soon?
Always wanted some bike carbs. Bought some blackbird carbs back in 2004 or something. Think they even came to America with me when I moved there... Think they disappeared in a house move way back when!
roosie said:
Brilliant thread,
The engine about with the ITB's was out of my old race car i raced in stock hatch in 2009-10 but owner had changed a lot of the spec by then.
I am racing again in the 106 Xsi this year if the season ever gets back, and love following this build. to get the proven best power out of the Tu5 you need
saxo mk3 Bottom end with the raised pistons and short skirt along with a mk1 early saxo , s1 or s2 , xsi head and J Cam from the rallye, a good aftermarket ecu and exhaust will see easy 130-135bhp with a s1 inlet.
can i ask if you haven many spares from the xsi, im after a induction pipework that goes to the airbox?
Thanks for the nice comment... but I suspect this could have gone smoother and been more inspiring!The engine about with the ITB's was out of my old race car i raced in stock hatch in 2009-10 but owner had changed a lot of the spec by then.
I am racing again in the 106 Xsi this year if the season ever gets back, and love following this build. to get the proven best power out of the Tu5 you need
saxo mk3 Bottom end with the raised pistons and short skirt along with a mk1 early saxo , s1 or s2 , xsi head and J Cam from the rallye, a good aftermarket ecu and exhaust will see easy 130-135bhp with a s1 inlet.
can i ask if you haven many spares from the xsi, im after a induction pipework that goes to the airbox?
Ah ha - You're the guy who is asking on Facebook, when I do my XSi parts search
I do think I have that pipe and almost messaged you on there... but I don't know if I am going to use it yet, so didn't want to speak too soon.
Induction was to come after the engine was running and although I am sticking with the standard airbox; I do have one of those closed, fake carbon induction kits I was considering piping up (without the weird, little filter, hence keeping the standard box). The connection to the airbox though is annoyingly oval. If I can find a suitable 'link' solution - it's yours. But, like I say; it could be a while!
If you have a Saxo Mk.3 bottom end - swap?
All jokes aside - assume that is a late Saxo VTR then? Do you have a model year or, better yet, point me to a link for what I might want?
I still think it would be a bit of a waste not building an engine from what I have as, if nothing needs a lot of machining, it would be cheap and clears the garage of engines!
2 x XSi heads, 2 x J (or Z, need to check) cams, 1 x Piper cam, 2 x ally blocks, 1 x iron block, all manner of engine mounts, alternators, brackets, etc, etc. An XSi gearbox, a 1.1 gearbox (in the car), blah, blah, blah. If no (or minimal) machining was required; I'm a couple of sets of bearings and piston rings from two full engines.
Sorry chaps (and/or chapesses)... not ignoring you!
6hrs straight on a call between Milan and Venezuela and writing a document until now... the car and PH has not been at the forefront of my mind!
It looks like it'll be the weekend before the next progress is made. With the weather turning, that may be pulling the head off the iron block in the garage, before I attack the car with the ratchet again!
I am glad to inspire;p, but if (mostly when in my case) it all goes wrong... I wasn't here, right!
6hrs straight on a call between Milan and Venezuela and writing a document until now... the car and PH has not been at the forefront of my mind!
It looks like it'll be the weekend before the next progress is made. With the weather turning, that may be pulling the head off the iron block in the garage, before I attack the car with the ratchet again!
I am glad to inspire;p, but if (mostly when in my case) it all goes wrong... I wasn't here, right!
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