Citroen AX GT.......no idea what it's like!
Discussion
'So' (you may ask), 'How did changing the valve stem seals and the steering rack end up with the car looking like this?':
Well.......
....erm......
So, anyway, the valve stem seals! How was that going? Pretty well, thanks very much. The head was removed and taken over to my bench, where I had a chance to strip it down and send it off to be cleaned and refaced:
The original valve stem seals - the suspected cause of the late-night-Ch5-movies-tinted smoke, were indeed, pretty worn. I mean, like plastic. You wouldn't have known they were rubber!:
The valves too, were pretty gunky. Since mile zero, the only major(ish) jobs the car has had done are a new gearbox (because the MA is made of cheese) and a head gasket change. I'm guessing during said head gasket change (which I like to imagine being carried out in some ratty old French hut with shutters over the windows and dead flowers in the baskets) the head was not 'de-coked', so there is a slight build up of crud on them. Amazing that it was making good power (89bhp was the highest it did, and averaged 86bhp if memory serves) when the inlet ports were restricted by carbon! I set about cleaning them, while muttering to myself that "You never know, it might gain power!":
The valves and guides themselves were in pretty good condition. If I was going for a full-on rebuild of the entire engine I'd probably have gone all belt & braces, and had new guides and valves fitted, but I chose the more sensible option; If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They were, so I didn't.
I did get the head back, however, and set about installing freshly cleaned valves:
I also measured the camshaft lobes, and found differences of less than 0.008mm across all the lobes. A Rover V8 with about 100k on it can vary with 0.8mm, sometimes more! And yet, the Rover V8 goes down in folklore, and the AX is a s
tty old French car. Logic......
This is the point where I began looking at the front of the AX. I've never liked the front panel. I'm told the car had a front corner tap in Portugal way back when, and the front panel is a reminder of this. There's a part of me that wants to preserve the history and story of the car, but there's also the part that's not odd, and knows that one day I'll have to sell it and that the next owner may not want the damage. (They may even want the bodywork polished too!)
One of the issues with the front end, was that the front panel looked a bit 'home-made' on the O/S corner. Some people love 'home-made', whether it's cakes, cookies or mince pies. Me? I think Mr Kipling is way better at baking cakes than anyone I know who bakes them at home, and for that matter, Citroen are much better at making AX front panels than Sofianne in a shed. So it started like this, by removing the front bumper etc:
The home-made bit:
Versus the other side:
Something had to be done! Luckily, something could be done; Those of you sporting a strong memory game may remember that I do actually own ANOTHER white AX GT. This one is pretty rotten, sadly, not being privvy to a barn in southern France for the majority of its life. I had actually begun to break it for spares as no one wanted to take it on as a project, and in doing so had removed the front panel to use with this AX. So, I had the front panel I needed, all I needed to do was unbolt the old one and bolt the new one on!
Err, no. They're welded.
So, out came the drill and off came the panel:
[insert picture from the top here]
Which moved me on (again) to another evolution of the job - the inner wings. This is a very common rust spot on any AX. water gets trapped in the bumper mount underneath, and the panel rots out from the underside. You see lots of cars sporting patches welded over the top, but that's not cricket. I wanted to do it properly! Plus, the damage from the Portuguese 'tap' was still evident on said inner wing. Pierre/Sofianne/stereotypical French name had done a job straightening the panel in his shed/workshop/château, but the ripples and buckles were still there, and though it's not structural, there were little holes where the metal had been crimped. Well, it's structural in the event of a crash, but if you have a crash in an AX GT, you also become structural.
So, the wings as I found them:
Then I found something that surprised me - rust! As in, a hole! Even this car, possibly one of the best GT shells around, had not escaped the normal AX area! The nearside had no damage, it was purely the rust issue:
A better view of the crease on the offside:
So it was time to get the grinder out and get cutting!:
I can spend some time redressing the rest of the panel, but I don't want to go too mad cutting untidy metal out, as fabricating panels with some of those curves would be harder than making those panels look better!
I mad a new panel to weld in:
Slight problem. The inner wings are curved inwardly (which is easy to replicate) and are corrugated slightly, which is no doubt there to allow the metal to crumple in a certain manner in the event of a shunt. I'm not fussed about the shunt aspect (structural driver, waiver form signed each time you drive it), but I am fussed about it looking original. Now, I'm not going to be able to get it looking completely OE, as I don't have a brand new inner wing, or the tooling to make one.
What I do have is a bar. A bar, and a hammer. And a vice:
First attempt:
Then followed swearing and anger. Eventually:
And then came primer:
All that primer would have to come off again, as you need white primer with Citroen Alpine white (which looks beige compared with most whites). More tidying was done after the primer went on, and eventually it was ready for some paint. One coat of Citroen Alpine white, and another of Audi Amalfi White (because they only had one can of Citroen Alpine white, and the Audi looked (and turned out to be) identical).
Et voila - ready for the replacement front panel to go back on!
Well.......
....erm......
So, anyway, the valve stem seals! How was that going? Pretty well, thanks very much. The head was removed and taken over to my bench, where I had a chance to strip it down and send it off to be cleaned and refaced:
The original valve stem seals - the suspected cause of the late-night-Ch5-movies-tinted smoke, were indeed, pretty worn. I mean, like plastic. You wouldn't have known they were rubber!:
The valves too, were pretty gunky. Since mile zero, the only major(ish) jobs the car has had done are a new gearbox (because the MA is made of cheese) and a head gasket change. I'm guessing during said head gasket change (which I like to imagine being carried out in some ratty old French hut with shutters over the windows and dead flowers in the baskets) the head was not 'de-coked', so there is a slight build up of crud on them. Amazing that it was making good power (89bhp was the highest it did, and averaged 86bhp if memory serves) when the inlet ports were restricted by carbon! I set about cleaning them, while muttering to myself that "You never know, it might gain power!":
The valves and guides themselves were in pretty good condition. If I was going for a full-on rebuild of the entire engine I'd probably have gone all belt & braces, and had new guides and valves fitted, but I chose the more sensible option; If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They were, so I didn't.
I did get the head back, however, and set about installing freshly cleaned valves:
I also measured the camshaft lobes, and found differences of less than 0.008mm across all the lobes. A Rover V8 with about 100k on it can vary with 0.8mm, sometimes more! And yet, the Rover V8 goes down in folklore, and the AX is a s
tty old French car. Logic......This is the point where I began looking at the front of the AX. I've never liked the front panel. I'm told the car had a front corner tap in Portugal way back when, and the front panel is a reminder of this. There's a part of me that wants to preserve the history and story of the car, but there's also the part that's not odd, and knows that one day I'll have to sell it and that the next owner may not want the damage. (They may even want the bodywork polished too!)
One of the issues with the front end, was that the front panel looked a bit 'home-made' on the O/S corner. Some people love 'home-made', whether it's cakes, cookies or mince pies. Me? I think Mr Kipling is way better at baking cakes than anyone I know who bakes them at home, and for that matter, Citroen are much better at making AX front panels than Sofianne in a shed. So it started like this, by removing the front bumper etc:
The home-made bit:
Versus the other side:
Something had to be done! Luckily, something could be done; Those of you sporting a strong memory game may remember that I do actually own ANOTHER white AX GT. This one is pretty rotten, sadly, not being privvy to a barn in southern France for the majority of its life. I had actually begun to break it for spares as no one wanted to take it on as a project, and in doing so had removed the front panel to use with this AX. So, I had the front panel I needed, all I needed to do was unbolt the old one and bolt the new one on!
Err, no. They're welded.
So, out came the drill and off came the panel:
[insert picture from the top here]
Which moved me on (again) to another evolution of the job - the inner wings. This is a very common rust spot on any AX. water gets trapped in the bumper mount underneath, and the panel rots out from the underside. You see lots of cars sporting patches welded over the top, but that's not cricket. I wanted to do it properly! Plus, the damage from the Portuguese 'tap' was still evident on said inner wing. Pierre/Sofianne/stereotypical French name had done a job straightening the panel in his shed/workshop/château, but the ripples and buckles were still there, and though it's not structural, there were little holes where the metal had been crimped. Well, it's structural in the event of a crash, but if you have a crash in an AX GT, you also become structural.
So, the wings as I found them:
Then I found something that surprised me - rust! As in, a hole! Even this car, possibly one of the best GT shells around, had not escaped the normal AX area! The nearside had no damage, it was purely the rust issue:
A better view of the crease on the offside:
So it was time to get the grinder out and get cutting!:
I can spend some time redressing the rest of the panel, but I don't want to go too mad cutting untidy metal out, as fabricating panels with some of those curves would be harder than making those panels look better!
I mad a new panel to weld in:
Slight problem. The inner wings are curved inwardly (which is easy to replicate) and are corrugated slightly, which is no doubt there to allow the metal to crumple in a certain manner in the event of a shunt. I'm not fussed about the shunt aspect (structural driver, waiver form signed each time you drive it), but I am fussed about it looking original. Now, I'm not going to be able to get it looking completely OE, as I don't have a brand new inner wing, or the tooling to make one.
What I do have is a bar. A bar, and a hammer. And a vice:
First attempt:
Then followed swearing and anger. Eventually:
And then came primer:
All that primer would have to come off again, as you need white primer with Citroen Alpine white (which looks beige compared with most whites). More tidying was done after the primer went on, and eventually it was ready for some paint. One coat of Citroen Alpine white, and another of Audi Amalfi White (because they only had one can of Citroen Alpine white, and the Audi looked (and turned out to be) identical).
Et voila - ready for the replacement front panel to go back on!
dom9 said:
Great stuff! Want to finish my XSi for me?
I have no time with work at the moment and my back has been playing up!
Love this thread
Ha! Always happy to work on some proper cars. Sick of all the TVRs and Ultimas I have no time with work at the moment and my back has been playing up!
Love this thread
Shadow R1 said:
Great stuff.
Be interesting to run it on the dyno again once its back together, see if a few more ponies have been found.
I'm not actually expecting it to be any different in terms of peak power to be honest. I think it should run sweeter still though (it was pretty good before!) but you never know.Be interesting to run it on the dyno again once its back together, see if a few more ponies have been found.
Sillyhatday said:
Super, One of my favourite threads. Should run even better now
Cheers. Be nice if it did, but it ran well anyway. I want it to drive even better more than anything, as I think the steering was letting the side down.
Kitchski said:
Drop us a line when you get back, and let me know what needs doing etc. Worst I can say is no 
Pretty busy at the moment but should be able to accommodate it.
It's not like there is a deadline... Which was last summer! Pretty busy at the moment but should be able to accommodate it.Would be good to have it sorted by the time we move house again in April!
Anyway, back to the awesome thread; I'll take this to PM next week!
dom9 said:
It's not like there is a deadline... Which was last summer!
Would be good to have it sorted by the time we move house again in April!
Anyway, back to the awesome thread; I'll take this to PM next week!
Ah yes, deadlines...........Would be good to have it sorted by the time we move house again in April!
Anyway, back to the awesome thread; I'll take this to PM next week!
.....erm.......
I swear I've got some other cars somewhere that i haven't finished....
Well, I'm sitting here scoffing a piece of millionaire's shortbread from the Co-Op, having just removed the gearbox. The mystic clue of '2CA84' will mean nothing to anyone with a life, but to AX (and 106, 205, Saxo et al.) enthuiasts, it means one thing; Too tall. No, not me. I'm only 5ft8in (roughly). I'd never be classed as too tall.
Nope, too tall refers to the ratios. I've mentioned that though I love the car, something just isn't *clicking* for me with it. It's not as fun as I remember. Why could that be? It could just be a case of the fact I am now 33yrs old, and before I was 17yrs old. And, when you're 17yrs old, 120bhp/ton is enough to provoke a change in your personality, that makes you act like the big dick in front of your friends. At 17yrs old, 120bhp/ton isn't too bad at all. This just doesn't feel like that though. I mean, yeah, it goes quite well for a small engine, and it hauls itself out of bends like no-one's business, but it's just not as frantic as I remember. I've mentioned things like the boot being full of tools, the steering rack being knackered, the column had play too....even a woolly gear linkage can let the side down. And yet, I knew all that, and still something was amiss.
So, while I was doing the front panel, I started thinking. I remember the guy-from-the-UK-but-who-lived-in-France-and-was-one-half-of-the-couple-who-gave-me-the-car was very proud of the fact that, despite the mileage, it had only had one clutch change, one head gasket change, and a replacement gearbox, as the old one let go.
And then, I began to cast my mind back to the day I put it on the rolling road. I remember being very happy with the engine's output, but I also immensely enjoy being a complete geek, and comparing cars in all manner of ways. One of the pleasures of being able to access a dyno at any time (unless there's an old decaying BX sat on it) is that I can play numbers. So, once the AX's runs had been printed off, I began to upload previous runs with a Saxo VTR, Saxo VTS, 106 Rallye, and anything else with a TU engine fitted that I had dyno'd. I even added my Hillman Imp into the mix. The beauty of this was that I could overlay the power runs, and compare them all in terms of torque, power and revs/wheel speed, both at the flywheel and at the wheels.
That's where a doubt was cast into my head. The Saxo VTS' run carried on miles past all the other cars. It climbed higher, and further. That's mainly because it makes its power higher up the rev range, being a 16v, and so it was doing 7000rpm or so, where some of the others were only revving to 6000rpm. The 106 Rallye S1 revved even higher than the Saxo, but had such short gearing that its terminal speed was about the same as the majority of cars there. Makes sense - you gear a car for its engine and weight, and the 1300 lump in that gear didn't have a lot of grunt!
So, you'd expect the AX to be roughly in the same mix. But no, it wasn't. It was miles away, up with the Saxo, despite the engine spinning over at around 1000rpm less. Strange.
Remember the trip to 'Up North' and then through London on the way back? AX did 46mpg on the that trip. FORTY-SIX! It's a hot(shush!) hatch! 46mpg is obscene.
Well, now I know why. It's running a regular, non-sport gearset version of the MA gearbox. The replacement gearbox currently fitted is a regular 1400 version, designed for economy and light driving. Citroen/Peugeot only really do two gearsets on the conventional TU-engine'd cars (by conventional I mean not including diesels, 4-speeds etc.) Sport, and non-sport. For example, the AX GT has the same gear ratios as a Saxo VTS, or a 106 Rallye. The difference is the final drive, which is adjusted to suit whichever engine the box is for. It's not an absolute thing, and there are lots of variations of the same box, but in basic principle, the GT should have short gearing. And it doesn't. It has long gearing.
Solution? Rip gearbox out this morning:
You can't really see the code for this gearbox, but it was 2CA84:
That puts the ratios at (and the road speed @ 6000rpm):
1st: 3.41 (29.2mph)
2nd: 1.80 (55.4mph)
3rd: 1.28 (78.5mph)
4th: 0.97 (102.7mph)
5th 0.77 (127.8mph)
F/D: 3.93
I've had AX GTs at 6000rpm in 5th gear before. None have been ANYWHERE NEAR 125mph, even on the clock, let alone in true speed!
However, salvation is here! In the way of:
A 2CA63 gearbox. I was unsure at first whether this was also the right box, as I always though AX GT's used 2CA28, but having done my research it turns out a 2CA63 is just a newer version of a 2CA28. The ratios are identical, thus:
1st: 3.41 (28.3mph)
2nd: 1.95 (49.5mph)
3rd: 1.36 (70.9mph)
4th: 1.05 (91.9mph)
5th 0.85 (113.5mph)
F/D: 4.06
It's actually an ideal box, because some GTs were fitted with a 3.93 final drive, so it's the shortest AX GT box it could be. And, the best bit is I know it's a good box, because it's off my other white car. A white car of identical age, original....even colour. It's probably the spec of box this car left Aulnay with back on 8th December, 1989. I'm now massively excited at the prospect of getting this car back on the road, however! I'm thinking January dawn-raids in the South Downs at the moment!
Sadly, a white car now certainly set to depart this mortal coil, and the HowManyLeftWebsite's estimated number of AX GT's left in the UK will decrease by one. It's too rusted, too far gone and this car needed too many spares.
RIP G313 XRX!
XRX's death is far from in vain though. Another part needed was the wiper mechanism. There was more play in the original 250k mechanism than......well, insert your own Katie Price euphemism there. So, it was binned in favour of XRX's, which gave me a chance to also clean out the scuttle tray:
Being only a single wiper has its benefits!:
Et voila:
Course, when I put the scuttle trim back on, you won't be able to see any of that. But I'll know it's there, all minty and clean.
Right, back to work. Can't put the 2CA63 box back on yet, as like a plank, I only ordered a new clutch yesterday (seems daft not to change the clutch), so that's not here until Monday. I'll continue cleaning stuff up for now, and taking bits from XRX to put on sale.
Nope, too tall refers to the ratios. I've mentioned that though I love the car, something just isn't *clicking* for me with it. It's not as fun as I remember. Why could that be? It could just be a case of the fact I am now 33yrs old, and before I was 17yrs old. And, when you're 17yrs old, 120bhp/ton is enough to provoke a change in your personality, that makes you act like the big dick in front of your friends. At 17yrs old, 120bhp/ton isn't too bad at all. This just doesn't feel like that though. I mean, yeah, it goes quite well for a small engine, and it hauls itself out of bends like no-one's business, but it's just not as frantic as I remember. I've mentioned things like the boot being full of tools, the steering rack being knackered, the column had play too....even a woolly gear linkage can let the side down. And yet, I knew all that, and still something was amiss.
So, while I was doing the front panel, I started thinking. I remember the guy-from-the-UK-but-who-lived-in-France-and-was-one-half-of-the-couple-who-gave-me-the-car was very proud of the fact that, despite the mileage, it had only had one clutch change, one head gasket change, and a replacement gearbox, as the old one let go.
And then, I began to cast my mind back to the day I put it on the rolling road. I remember being very happy with the engine's output, but I also immensely enjoy being a complete geek, and comparing cars in all manner of ways. One of the pleasures of being able to access a dyno at any time (unless there's an old decaying BX sat on it) is that I can play numbers. So, once the AX's runs had been printed off, I began to upload previous runs with a Saxo VTR, Saxo VTS, 106 Rallye, and anything else with a TU engine fitted that I had dyno'd. I even added my Hillman Imp into the mix. The beauty of this was that I could overlay the power runs, and compare them all in terms of torque, power and revs/wheel speed, both at the flywheel and at the wheels.
That's where a doubt was cast into my head. The Saxo VTS' run carried on miles past all the other cars. It climbed higher, and further. That's mainly because it makes its power higher up the rev range, being a 16v, and so it was doing 7000rpm or so, where some of the others were only revving to 6000rpm. The 106 Rallye S1 revved even higher than the Saxo, but had such short gearing that its terminal speed was about the same as the majority of cars there. Makes sense - you gear a car for its engine and weight, and the 1300 lump in that gear didn't have a lot of grunt!
So, you'd expect the AX to be roughly in the same mix. But no, it wasn't. It was miles away, up with the Saxo, despite the engine spinning over at around 1000rpm less. Strange.
Remember the trip to 'Up North' and then through London on the way back? AX did 46mpg on the that trip. FORTY-SIX! It's a hot(shush!) hatch! 46mpg is obscene.
Well, now I know why. It's running a regular, non-sport gearset version of the MA gearbox. The replacement gearbox currently fitted is a regular 1400 version, designed for economy and light driving. Citroen/Peugeot only really do two gearsets on the conventional TU-engine'd cars (by conventional I mean not including diesels, 4-speeds etc.) Sport, and non-sport. For example, the AX GT has the same gear ratios as a Saxo VTS, or a 106 Rallye. The difference is the final drive, which is adjusted to suit whichever engine the box is for. It's not an absolute thing, and there are lots of variations of the same box, but in basic principle, the GT should have short gearing. And it doesn't. It has long gearing.
Solution? Rip gearbox out this morning:
You can't really see the code for this gearbox, but it was 2CA84:
That puts the ratios at (and the road speed @ 6000rpm):
1st: 3.41 (29.2mph)
2nd: 1.80 (55.4mph)
3rd: 1.28 (78.5mph)
4th: 0.97 (102.7mph)
5th 0.77 (127.8mph)
F/D: 3.93
I've had AX GTs at 6000rpm in 5th gear before. None have been ANYWHERE NEAR 125mph, even on the clock, let alone in true speed!
However, salvation is here! In the way of:
A 2CA63 gearbox. I was unsure at first whether this was also the right box, as I always though AX GT's used 2CA28, but having done my research it turns out a 2CA63 is just a newer version of a 2CA28. The ratios are identical, thus:
1st: 3.41 (28.3mph)
2nd: 1.95 (49.5mph)
3rd: 1.36 (70.9mph)
4th: 1.05 (91.9mph)
5th 0.85 (113.5mph)
F/D: 4.06
It's actually an ideal box, because some GTs were fitted with a 3.93 final drive, so it's the shortest AX GT box it could be. And, the best bit is I know it's a good box, because it's off my other white car. A white car of identical age, original....even colour. It's probably the spec of box this car left Aulnay with back on 8th December, 1989. I'm now massively excited at the prospect of getting this car back on the road, however! I'm thinking January dawn-raids in the South Downs at the moment!
Sadly, a white car now certainly set to depart this mortal coil, and the HowManyLeftWebsite's estimated number of AX GT's left in the UK will decrease by one. It's too rusted, too far gone and this car needed too many spares.
RIP G313 XRX!
XRX's death is far from in vain though. Another part needed was the wiper mechanism. There was more play in the original 250k mechanism than......well, insert your own Katie Price euphemism there. So, it was binned in favour of XRX's, which gave me a chance to also clean out the scuttle tray:
Being only a single wiper has its benefits!:
Et voila:
Course, when I put the scuttle trim back on, you won't be able to see any of that. But I'll know it's there, all minty and clean.
Right, back to work. Can't put the 2CA63 box back on yet, as like a plank, I only ordered a new clutch yesterday (seems daft not to change the clutch), so that's not here until Monday. I'll continue cleaning stuff up for now, and taking bits from XRX to put on sale.
Edited by Kitchski on Saturday 17th December 14:22
This has reminded me of my axgt. Wonderfully fun car I had at 18. I had a very nasty crash in mine and scrapped it.
I've got a new front wing and some other bits and pieces in my dads garage, pretty sure it's a genuine part. Happy to send it over to you if you think it may be of use.
I've got a new front wing and some other bits and pieces in my dads garage, pretty sure it's a genuine part. Happy to send it over to you if you think it may be of use.
PixelpeepS3 said:
Never owned one but a friend of mine back in the mid 90's had one that was stupidly low. he had to crawl over speed bumps and bumping up a kerb was impossible.
thing looked awesome. Wonder if the 306 GTI-6/mi-16 lump would fit?
It does but engine mounts need work.thing looked awesome. Wonder if the 306 GTI-6/mi-16 lump would fit?
Love this thread! How's the BX fairing?
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