Alfa GTA Sportwagon
Discussion
I think we’re all experienced car buying adults on this board. We know how it should be done.
1) You choose the chariot you want to buy, carefully evaluating criteria such as practicality, fuel economy and propensity to fall apart.
2) With this choice in mind you scour the market, carefully noting down the prices and condition of what is on sale.
3) You create a short list to view, and go and look at them. You are prepared to walk away until you find precisely the right car.
We know what you should not do is:
1) Read a post on Alfaowner.com with a title along the lines of “this car is so knackered I am thinking of scrapping it” and without even knowing what the car is, open the post with great interest. Not that you need a car, you have several already.
2) See a link to an ad on Pistonheads for a GTA Sportwagon that is firstly clearly sheddy, and secondly has accident damage.
3) Realise that the car is in the vague vicinity of where you will be working next week
4) Agree with the seller a price (having not seen the car)
5) Meet said seller in a shopping centre car park, in the dark, in Warrington
6) Neglect to even start the car before the seller has the money in his hands and is halfway across the car park.
No, of course none of us would buy this in such a manner. There is the “good” side:
And the less good side.
The car is a Cat C as a result of the accident because GTA wings cost about eleventy billion pounds from Alfa, if you can get them. The only mitigation to the whole story is that I know the seller, and he had to drive it 100 miles to Warrington. Surely it can’t be that bad? Can it?
So I settled myself into the driver’s seat for the first time. Seemed comfortable enough, I didn’t get a wet bottom and it didn’t smell. Score. The instruments can only be described as “faded” with several bulbs out. At least the speedo was illuminated. I dared to shut the smashed door, and it latched reasonably well. OK, time to start it …. and it burst into life with a noise reminiscent of a badly shot up Spitfire coming into land. I had been warned of a “blow” in the downpipes, on hearing it, I wondered if the downpipes had been included in the sale. A cautious 10 mile drive to my hotel followed. First impressions were that the engine worked well, the handling was good, but the various noises were pretty awful. Time for bed.
A little work on eBay had revealed a replacement door (standard 156 item) for sale in Wigan, 15 miles up the road, so I got up early, and went to fetch it before work. Apologies to all in the hotel who were woken up by the unsilenced Busso chorus. It was about -5 that morning, and the tyres immediately went on the fix list – they had all the traction of ice skates.
Picking up the door in Wigan:
At the end of the week I was faced with a 250 mile journey down south. Would the GTA make it? Well, yes it did, and with no problems at all, indeed it went like the clappers, handling nice and predictably at respectable speeds on motorways and A roads. The engine management light was coming on with increasing regularity, and eventually stayed on, but performance was unaffected. In fact performance was blistering, and other than the howling gale coming through the gaps in the driver’s door, it all seemed pretty good, though that may have been deafness caused by the exhaust.
Once home, I stashed it with the rest of the fleet in an attempt to hide it from the missus, a ruse which lasted all of, er, 2 hours. Ho hum.
At this point you will see that I am a serial Alfa offender:
On the left is a GT 3.2 that I got for £900 with an engine that was mostly in the boot, in pieces.
Behind that is a 156 V6 that I use for general commuting duties
Behind that is my brother in laws car that is, er, resting with us.
Behind that is a parts car, an incredibly valuable asset which literally combines the properties of a shed (you can store things in it) and a parts store (you just unscrew things when you need them)
Those of you on Alfaowner will recognise the story here, it is in the image lounge, but you can't access that without being a member, so I thought I'd post it here as well given the love this board seems to have for shed-tastic activities.
1) You choose the chariot you want to buy, carefully evaluating criteria such as practicality, fuel economy and propensity to fall apart.
2) With this choice in mind you scour the market, carefully noting down the prices and condition of what is on sale.
3) You create a short list to view, and go and look at them. You are prepared to walk away until you find precisely the right car.
We know what you should not do is:
1) Read a post on Alfaowner.com with a title along the lines of “this car is so knackered I am thinking of scrapping it” and without even knowing what the car is, open the post with great interest. Not that you need a car, you have several already.
2) See a link to an ad on Pistonheads for a GTA Sportwagon that is firstly clearly sheddy, and secondly has accident damage.
3) Realise that the car is in the vague vicinity of where you will be working next week
4) Agree with the seller a price (having not seen the car)
5) Meet said seller in a shopping centre car park, in the dark, in Warrington
6) Neglect to even start the car before the seller has the money in his hands and is halfway across the car park.
No, of course none of us would buy this in such a manner. There is the “good” side:
And the less good side.
The car is a Cat C as a result of the accident because GTA wings cost about eleventy billion pounds from Alfa, if you can get them. The only mitigation to the whole story is that I know the seller, and he had to drive it 100 miles to Warrington. Surely it can’t be that bad? Can it?
So I settled myself into the driver’s seat for the first time. Seemed comfortable enough, I didn’t get a wet bottom and it didn’t smell. Score. The instruments can only be described as “faded” with several bulbs out. At least the speedo was illuminated. I dared to shut the smashed door, and it latched reasonably well. OK, time to start it …. and it burst into life with a noise reminiscent of a badly shot up Spitfire coming into land. I had been warned of a “blow” in the downpipes, on hearing it, I wondered if the downpipes had been included in the sale. A cautious 10 mile drive to my hotel followed. First impressions were that the engine worked well, the handling was good, but the various noises were pretty awful. Time for bed.
A little work on eBay had revealed a replacement door (standard 156 item) for sale in Wigan, 15 miles up the road, so I got up early, and went to fetch it before work. Apologies to all in the hotel who were woken up by the unsilenced Busso chorus. It was about -5 that morning, and the tyres immediately went on the fix list – they had all the traction of ice skates.
Picking up the door in Wigan:
At the end of the week I was faced with a 250 mile journey down south. Would the GTA make it? Well, yes it did, and with no problems at all, indeed it went like the clappers, handling nice and predictably at respectable speeds on motorways and A roads. The engine management light was coming on with increasing regularity, and eventually stayed on, but performance was unaffected. In fact performance was blistering, and other than the howling gale coming through the gaps in the driver’s door, it all seemed pretty good, though that may have been deafness caused by the exhaust.
Once home, I stashed it with the rest of the fleet in an attempt to hide it from the missus, a ruse which lasted all of, er, 2 hours. Ho hum.
At this point you will see that I am a serial Alfa offender:
On the left is a GT 3.2 that I got for £900 with an engine that was mostly in the boot, in pieces.
Behind that is a 156 V6 that I use for general commuting duties
Behind that is my brother in laws car that is, er, resting with us.
Behind that is a parts car, an incredibly valuable asset which literally combines the properties of a shed (you can store things in it) and a parts store (you just unscrew things when you need them)
Those of you on Alfaowner will recognise the story here, it is in the image lounge, but you can't access that without being a member, so I thought I'd post it here as well given the love this board seems to have for shed-tastic activities.
Thats a good buy. Sounds vaguely similar to my purchase of a 166 V6 a long time ago - sight unseen, bought on a late night eBay session (beer may have been involved).
Still got it although the paint is terrible and the clutch has recently departed. Not sure what to do with it now.
EML could be down to the MAF (although you probably know that already) or the Lambda sensor. Common ailments.
Still got it although the paint is terrible and the clutch has recently departed. Not sure what to do with it now.
EML could be down to the MAF (although you probably know that already) or the Lambda sensor. Common ailments.
)They're worth about £2500 as parts, I paid close to three. Good ones seem to be making about £10K - the days of bargain working GTAs for a few grand are behind us. The sale did include a second hand (but undamaged) wing, and 1/2 a tank of petrol, so I was happy.
3.2 GTs are cheaper, you can get a perfectly good one for about 4 or 5 grand. They also have the advantage of sharing the bodywork with the cooking models, so bumpers etc are easily and cheaply available. GTA bumpers are like hen's teeth second hand, and EUR 900 for a new one.
3.2 GTs are cheaper, you can get a perfectly good one for about 4 or 5 grand. They also have the advantage of sharing the bodywork with the cooking models, so bumpers etc are easily and cheaply available. GTA bumpers are like hen's teeth second hand, and EUR 900 for a new one.
Edited by rxe on Thursday 7th April 17:04
Adding more, or you'll be trying to solve my engine management light problem, which has been fixed by now.
First thing, the door. Fixing the door would make the police less likely to stop me, and free up loads of space on the back seat. Doors are really very large and heavy.
Firstly, remove the remains of the old door by undoing four bolts and disconnecting some wiring. Off it comes:
Then hang the new door. The wing needs to come off to access the upper hinge bolts, but this wing is scrap anyway, so I just cut slots in it to access the bolts:
|http://thumbsnap.com/TDuV2IPR[/url]
Bring all the gubbins from the old door onto the new door. Fiddly, but pretty simple.
|http://thumbsnap.com/3OMEdfkU[/url]
Job done.
Next, replace this:
|http://thumbsnap.com/FjzDqsIF[/url]
with the one from the parts car, and a spare badge I had in the garage:
Finally the most worrying problem of all - the EML, or "Motor Control System Failure" in Alfa speak. Once of the best bits about spannering these cars is that you can get diagnostic software for free, and the cables are a tenner. OK, you need to pay for the diagnostics if you want to do complex stuff, but it is only EUR 50, and worth every bit of it.
The errors pointed to a rear bank misfire across all three cylinders. The rear bank being the one that is buried under the intake plenum and the one that has the lambda sensor that is pretty much an engine out job. Removing the plenum looks awful, but is actually pretty easy once you have the right tools for the intake clips. Did a visual inspection of the coil packs and plugs, swapped coil packs between front and back, and....no change. Hmm. Time to get a bit more serious.
General folklore on Alfaowner is that misfire at idle is caused by four things:
- Air leaks
- Knackered coil packs or plugs (already checked)
- Compression. Bad.
- Cam timing on the rear bank exhaust cam. Fixable, if you have the cam locks (I do)
Checking for air leaks, I found this whopper in the intake manifold:
Great, easy fix, out with the duct tape and .... no difference. Damn. Still ordered a new section (£80 ....)
The quick an dirty approach to compression testing is to stick a current clamp on the battery and crank it, with the fuel injection relay removed. Low compression cylinders show up as a drop in current because they are easy to compress:
Mine was fine. Phew - that would be expensive.
Must be the lambdas? I put the diagnostics on, and got the following:
and
So its not the lambdas - they are flipping quickly between high and low volts as you would expect. But there is very strange data in there - sometimes one bank going rich, sometimes lean, then the other bank. A consultation with the Alfaowner hive mind, as well as the local specialist pointed to cam timing. OK, time to get in there.
You have to remove the plenum, the cam covers, and expose the cam-belt pulleys. Then you have to find TDC by putting a dial gauge in cylinder 1. Once you have the engine perfectly in position, you stick the cam locks on (3.2 specific), and check it is all lined up.
Midway through surgery:
And a close up of the rear exhaust cam lock, which should be sitting flush on the head, but has a gap you could get a small bus through.
Resetting the cams is a procedure that is an extraordinary combination of violence (getting the pulleys off) and precision (getting it all in exactly the right place). You then have the moment where you are bricking it when you turn the key. And - result, idled as smoothly as anything, cleared the errors and they haven't come back.
First thing, the door. Fixing the door would make the police less likely to stop me, and free up loads of space on the back seat. Doors are really very large and heavy.
Firstly, remove the remains of the old door by undoing four bolts and disconnecting some wiring. Off it comes:
Then hang the new door. The wing needs to come off to access the upper hinge bolts, but this wing is scrap anyway, so I just cut slots in it to access the bolts:
|http://thumbsnap.com/TDuV2IPR[/url]Bring all the gubbins from the old door onto the new door. Fiddly, but pretty simple.
|http://thumbsnap.com/3OMEdfkU[/url]Job done.
Next, replace this:
|http://thumbsnap.com/FjzDqsIF[/url]with the one from the parts car, and a spare badge I had in the garage:
Finally the most worrying problem of all - the EML, or "Motor Control System Failure" in Alfa speak. Once of the best bits about spannering these cars is that you can get diagnostic software for free, and the cables are a tenner. OK, you need to pay for the diagnostics if you want to do complex stuff, but it is only EUR 50, and worth every bit of it.
The errors pointed to a rear bank misfire across all three cylinders. The rear bank being the one that is buried under the intake plenum and the one that has the lambda sensor that is pretty much an engine out job. Removing the plenum looks awful, but is actually pretty easy once you have the right tools for the intake clips. Did a visual inspection of the coil packs and plugs, swapped coil packs between front and back, and....no change. Hmm. Time to get a bit more serious.
General folklore on Alfaowner is that misfire at idle is caused by four things:
- Air leaks
- Knackered coil packs or plugs (already checked)
- Compression. Bad.
- Cam timing on the rear bank exhaust cam. Fixable, if you have the cam locks (I do)
Checking for air leaks, I found this whopper in the intake manifold:
Great, easy fix, out with the duct tape and .... no difference. Damn. Still ordered a new section (£80 ....)
The quick an dirty approach to compression testing is to stick a current clamp on the battery and crank it, with the fuel injection relay removed. Low compression cylinders show up as a drop in current because they are easy to compress:
Mine was fine. Phew - that would be expensive.
Must be the lambdas? I put the diagnostics on, and got the following:
and
So its not the lambdas - they are flipping quickly between high and low volts as you would expect. But there is very strange data in there - sometimes one bank going rich, sometimes lean, then the other bank. A consultation with the Alfaowner hive mind, as well as the local specialist pointed to cam timing. OK, time to get in there.
You have to remove the plenum, the cam covers, and expose the cam-belt pulleys. Then you have to find TDC by putting a dial gauge in cylinder 1. Once you have the engine perfectly in position, you stick the cam locks on (3.2 specific), and check it is all lined up.
Midway through surgery:
And a close up of the rear exhaust cam lock, which should be sitting flush on the head, but has a gap you could get a small bus through.
Resetting the cams is a procedure that is an extraordinary combination of violence (getting the pulleys off) and precision (getting it all in exactly the right place). You then have the moment where you are bricking it when you turn the key. And - result, idled as smoothly as anything, cleared the errors and they haven't come back.
My problem is that I rescue them and can't sell them. Some sort of emotional attachment starts once you've spent a few hours underneath them. Bringing this fully up to date....
The car was "nervous" in the steering department, once it was set up in a corner is was fine, but a bit twitchy going in. Felt like tracking and initial checks confirmed my suspicion. Both front tyres were "unevenly worn" in MOT parlance, or "knackered" as the rest of us would say:
Two front tyres ordered, and it was booked into the local specialist for tracking. They promptly turned round and said it was not possible to set it up, the lower wishbones were utterly knackered. I have to admit I was surprised, because it handled pretty well, but they know what they are doing, so it came home with its tail between its legs.
On the good side, I have all the spares, they are common across GTAs, 156s, 147s and GT. So not a disaster. Two weekends ago, I set about the car with a clearly defined plan:
1) Get up early
2) Whip the lower wishbones off
3) Replace with new parts
4) Get it tracked
5) Have fun.
So we got to (2), and then suddenly the wheel arch looked like this:
I had started with the best of intentions, but the driveshaft boots were in trouble, the track rod end boots were shot, the shocks were knackered and there was lots of surface rust in the shock turret - this can get very bad on 156s, so I bit the bullet and emptied out the wheelarches. Oh, I forgot, the brakes were well under the limit for the discs, so they went in the bin. The lower 'bones were indeed knackered - the rear bush literally fell off as I removed the bolts.
The rest of the w/e was devoted to cleaning up the wheelarches and sorting the rust.
Wirebrushed and primed. The observant will be wondering why I did not finish it properly and move the brake pipe - the answer is that this is very high risk, and replacing the brake pipes at the front is an engine out job. To be avoided unless you really have to.
Two weekends later, the boot looked like this - about a grands worth of parts in there:
Starting to rebuild the front suspension. New lower wishbone, upper, painted the upright, new CV boots, new track rod end, springs and shocks:
Job jobbed, now for the other side:
I know I need a new hub nut - I don't want to put this on until both sides have the brakes working - you get your assistant to stand on the brakes while you tighten them with an impact gun turned up to 11.
The car was "nervous" in the steering department, once it was set up in a corner is was fine, but a bit twitchy going in. Felt like tracking and initial checks confirmed my suspicion. Both front tyres were "unevenly worn" in MOT parlance, or "knackered" as the rest of us would say:
Two front tyres ordered, and it was booked into the local specialist for tracking. They promptly turned round and said it was not possible to set it up, the lower wishbones were utterly knackered. I have to admit I was surprised, because it handled pretty well, but they know what they are doing, so it came home with its tail between its legs.
On the good side, I have all the spares, they are common across GTAs, 156s, 147s and GT. So not a disaster. Two weekends ago, I set about the car with a clearly defined plan:
1) Get up early
2) Whip the lower wishbones off
3) Replace with new parts
4) Get it tracked
5) Have fun.
So we got to (2), and then suddenly the wheel arch looked like this:
I had started with the best of intentions, but the driveshaft boots were in trouble, the track rod end boots were shot, the shocks were knackered and there was lots of surface rust in the shock turret - this can get very bad on 156s, so I bit the bullet and emptied out the wheelarches. Oh, I forgot, the brakes were well under the limit for the discs, so they went in the bin. The lower 'bones were indeed knackered - the rear bush literally fell off as I removed the bolts.
The rest of the w/e was devoted to cleaning up the wheelarches and sorting the rust.
Wirebrushed and primed. The observant will be wondering why I did not finish it properly and move the brake pipe - the answer is that this is very high risk, and replacing the brake pipes at the front is an engine out job. To be avoided unless you really have to.
Two weekends later, the boot looked like this - about a grands worth of parts in there:
Starting to rebuild the front suspension. New lower wishbone, upper, painted the upright, new CV boots, new track rod end, springs and shocks:
Job jobbed, now for the other side:
I know I need a new hub nut - I don't want to put this on until both sides have the brakes working - you get your assistant to stand on the brakes while you tighten them with an impact gun turned up to 11.
MDMA . said:
Went north of Aberdeen from Wigan last year to buy a "mint - owners description " late model 156 GTA saloon in red. Was a rotten shed. Shame as really wanted one.
Promised myself never to go to Scotland and look at a car again. Have all been rust buckets.
This one was also from Scotland, but started its life in the less salty south. I think I've caught the rust in time, we'll see.Promised myself never to go to Scotland and look at a car again. Have all been rust buckets.
Edited by rxe on Thursday 7th April 21:13
Edited by rxe on Thursday 7th April 21:16
A couple of small updates. Front suspension is all done, I've totally renewed all of the moving parts and anything made of the chocolate rubber that Alfa used in the bushes. I should only need to visit the front wheel arches for brake pads in the next three years.
Took the car out for a quick test drive: not a fast one, because the tracking is pretty much done "by eye" and is almost certainly wrong. The Koni FSDs are a nice set of shocks, very similar to OE, but the hard bumps are smoothed out. It is very hard to draw any conclusions as the back end is still in a state.
Moody (i.e. dark) shot in the lane home, just to prove that the car actually works:
Started on the rear suspension, which is meant to be easier than the front. As expected, the wheel arches are covered in scabiness inside. I'm not sure if this is just because this car has suffered salted roads in Scotland, or they are all like this, but anyone with a 156 needs to be checking underneath. I've got this in time, it is just surface rust, but if I had waited for a few years, I'd be getting the MIG out.
This bit is important - it is the spring cup on the rear shock - and badly corroded. When it goes, the spring collapses and the bits end up shredding the tyre. Not good if it happens at speed. New one on the right:
Wheel arch after much wire brushing and now in primer:
Took the car out for a quick test drive: not a fast one, because the tracking is pretty much done "by eye" and is almost certainly wrong. The Koni FSDs are a nice set of shocks, very similar to OE, but the hard bumps are smoothed out. It is very hard to draw any conclusions as the back end is still in a state.
Moody (i.e. dark) shot in the lane home, just to prove that the car actually works:
Started on the rear suspension, which is meant to be easier than the front. As expected, the wheel arches are covered in scabiness inside. I'm not sure if this is just because this car has suffered salted roads in Scotland, or they are all like this, but anyone with a 156 needs to be checking underneath. I've got this in time, it is just surface rust, but if I had waited for a few years, I'd be getting the MIG out.
This bit is important - it is the spring cup on the rear shock - and badly corroded. When it goes, the spring collapses and the bits end up shredding the tyre. Not good if it happens at speed. New one on the right:
Wheel arch after much wire brushing and now in primer:
Absolute credit to you for rescuing such a rare and characterful car. But I find it petrifying that the front end could have been in such a horrendous state without you noticing (particularly having driven a long distance and at speed).
Surely there's no way a car with all of the faults below (particularly rust there, which doesn't appear overnight) could have passed an MOT recently???
Surely there's no way a car with all of the faults below (particularly rust there, which doesn't appear overnight) could have passed an MOT recently???
rxe said:
Both front tyres were "unevenly worn" in MOT parlance, or "knackered" as the rest of us would say...
the lower wishbones were utterly knackered...
he driveshaft boots were in trouble, the track rod end boots were shot, the shocks were knackered and there was lots of surface rust in the shock turret...
the brakes were well under the limit for the discs...
the lower 'bones were indeed knackered - the rear bush literally fell off as I removed the bolts.
the lower wishbones were utterly knackered...
he driveshaft boots were in trouble, the track rod end boots were shot, the shocks were knackered and there was lots of surface rust in the shock turret...
the brakes were well under the limit for the discs...
the lower 'bones were indeed knackered - the rear bush literally fell off as I removed the bolts.
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