Fiat Coupe, Lexus V8 and a Mazda MX5
Discussion
Back in 1998 life was good, I was a twenty something carefree chap working for a main dealer mending a variety of commercial vehicles from Mercedes. Of course being a twenty something I knew it all! Hmmm hindsight.
Anyway we had the displeasure of an ambulance contract looking after Fiat Ducatos of all things, turns out they could buy three Ducatos for the price of one Sprinter. The irony being there would always be two Fiat in the workshop with one remaining serviceable, I digress.
The time came to pick up some parts from the Fiat agent and as I was out and about I extended my road test to pick up said items.
Arriving at the Fiat dealer and scoffing at the offerings I saw this red sporty number in the showroom. I needed a closer look at this beast.
It transpired to be a Fiat Coupe 20 valve turbo LE, swooping lines huge (for the time) Brembo calipers and drilled discs, I was hooked , I needed one!
"Designed by Pinifarina" the slimy salesman said as he shuffled across the showroom, "Fastest Fiat ever made"
Then I remembered why I was there, to pick up parts for horrendously built Fiats, I left and with it I left behind that dream.
Fast forward 18 odd years and I was finally ready for the Fiat Coupe, in the early nineties I was Ford mad despite the number of Fiats I'd already owned starting with a Strada, but when I was able to afford them it was XR3i and Sierras for me. Early noughties I took a dive into the Japanese scene and got quite stuck in there!
But the Fiat Coupe was what I'd hankered for all these years.
And so the prices fell enough for me to get my hands on one, a beaut with one 179k on the clock hmm, okay but it did have full history with reams of specialist receipts.
It was on its second clutch and cambelt but it's original turbo was a testament to meticulous servicing. Obviously that didn't last long under my captaincy and before long I'd upped the boost and been a wee bit abusive of speed limits. In my eagerness to have a red Fiat coupe 20 valve turbo I'd been foolish and bought one nearing the end of its life.
The drivetrain was fine but the chassis was tired, it's suspension soggy and far too flex in the body for my liking. After a thorough examination it appeared to have rusted in the now usual Fiat Coupe areas (do not believe the "Fiats don't rust like they used" to line, they do)
I decided this needed a full restoration. Without a thought for my own sanity I quickly stripped it to a quivering shell and thought, "oh this is just a tipo, a Marea, a bravo/a, an Alfa 145/5"
"Wouldn't it be cool to be rear wheel drive"
So that's where it started, a quest to build my ultimate Fiat Coupe.....
Anyway we had the displeasure of an ambulance contract looking after Fiat Ducatos of all things, turns out they could buy three Ducatos for the price of one Sprinter. The irony being there would always be two Fiat in the workshop with one remaining serviceable, I digress.
The time came to pick up some parts from the Fiat agent and as I was out and about I extended my road test to pick up said items.
Arriving at the Fiat dealer and scoffing at the offerings I saw this red sporty number in the showroom. I needed a closer look at this beast.
It transpired to be a Fiat Coupe 20 valve turbo LE, swooping lines huge (for the time) Brembo calipers and drilled discs, I was hooked , I needed one!
"Designed by Pinifarina" the slimy salesman said as he shuffled across the showroom, "Fastest Fiat ever made"
Then I remembered why I was there, to pick up parts for horrendously built Fiats, I left and with it I left behind that dream.
Fast forward 18 odd years and I was finally ready for the Fiat Coupe, in the early nineties I was Ford mad despite the number of Fiats I'd already owned starting with a Strada, but when I was able to afford them it was XR3i and Sierras for me. Early noughties I took a dive into the Japanese scene and got quite stuck in there!
But the Fiat Coupe was what I'd hankered for all these years.
And so the prices fell enough for me to get my hands on one, a beaut with one 179k on the clock hmm, okay but it did have full history with reams of specialist receipts.
It was on its second clutch and cambelt but it's original turbo was a testament to meticulous servicing. Obviously that didn't last long under my captaincy and before long I'd upped the boost and been a wee bit abusive of speed limits. In my eagerness to have a red Fiat coupe 20 valve turbo I'd been foolish and bought one nearing the end of its life.
The drivetrain was fine but the chassis was tired, it's suspension soggy and far too flex in the body for my liking. After a thorough examination it appeared to have rusted in the now usual Fiat Coupe areas (do not believe the "Fiats don't rust like they used" to line, they do)
I decided this needed a full restoration. Without a thought for my own sanity I quickly stripped it to a quivering shell and thought, "oh this is just a tipo, a Marea, a bravo/a, an Alfa 145/5"
"Wouldn't it be cool to be rear wheel drive"
So that's where it started, a quest to build my ultimate Fiat Coupe.....
Edited by Steve20vt on Friday 15th July 14:17
Edited by Steve20vt on Tuesday 9th June 11:14
Off side rear inner arch
Off side front inner chassis leg.
So the Dr Frankenstein in me started thinking about how I could change this fwd fiat into something a little more interesting.
But what engine?
My first thought was maserati, a 3200GT engine would be glorious. But so expensive for a budget build.
I thought maybe an SR20 from a Nissan 200sx, a Toyota 2JZ, both come with extreme scene tax.
I settled for this
Edited by Steve20vt on Friday 15th July 19:44
I bought this Ls400 last year for £500 with nigh on a years test and full history.
It drove so nicely I used it as a daily since and put it through another test last week, no advisories.
It's 19 years old and everything works as well as the day it left Japan.
Four litres, 32 valves of V8 goodness. I removed the rear four silencers and fitted a pair of cheap ebay cherry bomb things. Now it sounds like a Proper V8, the downside is they were only available in auto and there's no manual box that will bolt on without an adapter.
There are now kits since the engines stated becoming popular due to their cheapness and ability to take big power easily.
It drove so nicely I used it as a daily since and put it through another test last week, no advisories.
It's 19 years old and everything works as well as the day it left Japan.
Four litres, 32 valves of V8 goodness. I removed the rear four silencers and fitted a pair of cheap ebay cherry bomb things. Now it sounds like a Proper V8, the downside is they were only available in auto and there's no manual box that will bolt on without an adapter.
There are now kits since the engines stated becoming popular due to their cheapness and ability to take big power easily.
Okay so a Fiat coupe, converted to rear wheel drive using a Lexus V8. Hmmm
The Fiat suspension won't be much use here.
The rear beam will have to go in exchange for something with a diff and Driveshafts.
I didn't fancy using the barge like Lexus suspension. I'd want something that was well proven, of sound design and had a plethora of aftermarket parts and could be adjusted to suit the application.
Something like this!
The Fiat suspension won't be much use here.
The rear beam will have to go in exchange for something with a diff and Driveshafts.
I didn't fancy using the barge like Lexus suspension. I'd want something that was well proven, of sound design and had a plethora of aftermarket parts and could be adjusted to suit the application.
Something like this!
So the idea is forming, the above mx5 was free which made me happy. It didn't however come with much in the way of anything, it was literally a shell, not even rolling, not even the bits I even wanted but the price was good so I trailered it back to HQ.
I managed to find locally a chap who was breaking another mx5 who was able to supply me the subframes andc suspension for me to get the shell rolling.
I could then relieve the shock absorbers of their springs and set the ride height I wanted. Next followed weeks of measuring, head scratching, more measuring and much build thread Reading of other crazy individuals doing equally crazy things with Miatas as our cousins over the pond refer to them.
Getting the thing level and taking into account odd sized tyres was laborious.
I managed to find locally a chap who was breaking another mx5 who was able to supply me the subframes andc suspension for me to get the shell rolling.
I could then relieve the shock absorbers of their springs and set the ride height I wanted. Next followed weeks of measuring, head scratching, more measuring and much build thread Reading of other crazy individuals doing equally crazy things with Miatas as our cousins over the pond refer to them.
Getting the thing level and taking into account odd sized tyres was laborious.
They do get under you're skin, I got another coupe that was much better rust wise that was going to be scraped. It was pretty much a shell so I thought I may as well bolt all the parts coming off the red one onto it.
That way I still have an original coupe so the purists don't hate me so much.
I'll have the best of both worlds.
That way I still have an original coupe so the purists don't hate me so much.
I'll have the best of both worlds.
So onto the plan in a little more detail.
The Fiat is going to be "adjusted" so the V8 fits in the right place to the centre line of the front wheels.
The original coupe engine and box sit well over the centre line, putting 900kg on the front axle.
I want the car to be as well balanced as possible. Now making "adjustments" to fit that big V8 back far enough will mean it will want to occupy 200mm of cabin space.
But let's not get into the square peg round hole situations just yet.
I'll carry on with the brief.
Unfortunately due to the fact I'm not rich the car will have to stay auto for a bit. I'm not thrilled by it but the Lexus auto isn't horrible to live with so it will do for now.
As for brakes, the Lexus comes with some fairly impressive stopping power in the form of four pot calipers and big discs. So they'll be going on.
The mazda runs 4x100 hubs and tiny brakes so I'll have to get creative getting the Lexus gear to fit.
Then there's getting the MX5 subframes onto the fiat along with its transmission tunnel.
I've been very busy with head scratching and measuring and drawing lots of pictures on the back of envelopes in the true spirit of British engineering.
I've come up with solutions to almost all the problems which I'll share with you all soon.
I'm also open for suggestions and assistance from those with actual engineering qualifications hehe.
It will be an evolving project and maybe will see it put through an IVA test add I'd like it to be road legal with comfort etc. But if that is just too big a task it will have to be a track toy.
I've the time, some disposable income, the tools, experience and workspace to get the thing built. It may just take a while.
The Fiat is going to be "adjusted" so the V8 fits in the right place to the centre line of the front wheels.
The original coupe engine and box sit well over the centre line, putting 900kg on the front axle.
I want the car to be as well balanced as possible. Now making "adjustments" to fit that big V8 back far enough will mean it will want to occupy 200mm of cabin space.
But let's not get into the square peg round hole situations just yet.
I'll carry on with the brief.
Unfortunately due to the fact I'm not rich the car will have to stay auto for a bit. I'm not thrilled by it but the Lexus auto isn't horrible to live with so it will do for now.
As for brakes, the Lexus comes with some fairly impressive stopping power in the form of four pot calipers and big discs. So they'll be going on.
The mazda runs 4x100 hubs and tiny brakes so I'll have to get creative getting the Lexus gear to fit.
Then there's getting the MX5 subframes onto the fiat along with its transmission tunnel.
I've been very busy with head scratching and measuring and drawing lots of pictures on the back of envelopes in the true spirit of British engineering.
I've come up with solutions to almost all the problems which I'll share with you all soon.
I'm also open for suggestions and assistance from those with actual engineering qualifications hehe.
It will be an evolving project and maybe will see it put through an IVA test add I'd like it to be road legal with comfort etc. But if that is just too big a task it will have to be a track toy.
I've the time, some disposable income, the tools, experience and workspace to get the thing built. It may just take a while.
Steve20vt said:
So onto the plan in a little more detail.
The Fiat is going to be "adjusted" so the V8 fits in the right place to the centre line of the front wheels.
The original coupe engine and box sit well over the centre line, putting 900kg on the front axle.
I want the car to be as well balanced as possible. Now making "adjustments" to fit that big V8 back far enough will mean it will want to occupy 200mm of cabin space.
But let's not get into the square peg round hole situations just yet.
I'll carry on with the brief.
Unfortunately due to the fact I'm not rich the car will have to stay auto for a bit. I'm not thrilled by it but the Lexus auto isn't horrible to live with so it will do for now.
As for brakes, the Lexus comes with some fairly impressive stopping power in the form of four pot calipers and big discs. So they'll be going on.
The mazda runs 4x100 hubs and tiny brakes so I'll have to get creative getting the Lexus gear to fit.
Then there's getting the MX5 subframes onto the fiat along with its transmission tunnel.
I've been very busy with head scratching and measuring and drawing lots of pictures on the back of envelopes in the true spirit of British engineering.
I've come up with solutions to almost all the problems which I'll share with you all soon.
I'm also open for suggestions and assistance from those with actual engineering qualifications hehe.
It will be an evolving project and maybe will see it put through an IVA test add I'd like it to be road legal with comfort etc. But if that is just too big a task it will have to be a track toy.
I've the time, some disposable income, the tools, experience and workspace to get the thing built. It may just take a while.
Wow, good luck with that, I'll be following with interestThe Fiat is going to be "adjusted" so the V8 fits in the right place to the centre line of the front wheels.
The original coupe engine and box sit well over the centre line, putting 900kg on the front axle.
I want the car to be as well balanced as possible. Now making "adjustments" to fit that big V8 back far enough will mean it will want to occupy 200mm of cabin space.
But let's not get into the square peg round hole situations just yet.
I'll carry on with the brief.
Unfortunately due to the fact I'm not rich the car will have to stay auto for a bit. I'm not thrilled by it but the Lexus auto isn't horrible to live with so it will do for now.
As for brakes, the Lexus comes with some fairly impressive stopping power in the form of four pot calipers and big discs. So they'll be going on.
The mazda runs 4x100 hubs and tiny brakes so I'll have to get creative getting the Lexus gear to fit.
Then there's getting the MX5 subframes onto the fiat along with its transmission tunnel.
I've been very busy with head scratching and measuring and drawing lots of pictures on the back of envelopes in the true spirit of British engineering.
I've come up with solutions to almost all the problems which I'll share with you all soon.
I'm also open for suggestions and assistance from those with actual engineering qualifications hehe.
It will be an evolving project and maybe will see it put through an IVA test add I'd like it to be road legal with comfort etc. But if that is just too big a task it will have to be a track toy.
I've the time, some disposable income, the tools, experience and workspace to get the thing built. It may just take a while.
So onto some theory.
The mx5 suspension is nice in the fact that it's double wishbone, and that in itself is a massive improvement on the Mac strut set up the fiat came with.
Plus it's already designed with rear drive in mind.
I'll admit here I kinda stole the idea from an American chap who did the same with a Ford Probe.
His finished product was a nice drivable car that he fitted the 2.5 v6 longitudinally. Very nice.
The mx5 suspension is nice in the fact that it's double wishbone, and that in itself is a massive improvement on the Mac strut set up the fiat came with.
Plus it's already designed with rear drive in mind.
I'll admit here I kinda stole the idea from an American chap who did the same with a Ford Probe.
His finished product was a nice drivable car that he fitted the 2.5 v6 longitudinally. Very nice.
I'll put links up to my "inspirational" build threads soon.
Right.
So I know where I want the engine, and I know where the front mx5 subframe needs to be which doesn't leave a lot of room for any engine let alone the Lexus v8.
It's a challenge. I could do what others do when dropping a v8 in the mx5 and mount the engine within the confines of the bay, but it will spoil the handling and if the handlist going to be spoiled I may as well have left the five pot ship actor in there.
That five cylinder engine is very nice and sounds lovely. But a V8 it is not.
Don't get me wrong I've only recently got into the V8 thing myself. I mean looking at the numbers 260bhp doesn't seem a lot for four litres of displacement.
And that's how I've always looked on the V8 scene. But Bloody hell it's a whole new world of effortless torque. You have to try one!
Right.
So I know where I want the engine, and I know where the front mx5 subframe needs to be which doesn't leave a lot of room for any engine let alone the Lexus v8.
It's a challenge. I could do what others do when dropping a v8 in the mx5 and mount the engine within the confines of the bay, but it will spoil the handling and if the handlist going to be spoiled I may as well have left the five pot ship actor in there.
That five cylinder engine is very nice and sounds lovely. But a V8 it is not.
Don't get me wrong I've only recently got into the V8 thing myself. I mean looking at the numbers 260bhp doesn't seem a lot for four litres of displacement.
And that's how I've always looked on the V8 scene. But Bloody hell it's a whole new world of effortless torque. You have to try one!
The mazda isn't quite dimensionally in proportion as the coupe. The wheelbase is considerably shorter although the track isn't a million miles off.
A quick fiddle on the calculator reveals the coupe wheelbase is 12.14 percent longer.
So, in order to keep the original mazda wheelbase to track ratio I'd need to increase the track by 12.14 percent too
Again when folks drop a V8 into an mx5 there's an issue with manifold clearance and steering column issues.
Now I have a nice wide engine bay and it would be nice to have the space to build some nice turbo manifolds (forgot to mention my 500bhp target) to fit the large turbo in front of the engine.
As you can see from the pics of the probe, he fitted (welded in the chassis rails of v the mx5) into his engine bay and used the standard mx5 subframe and suspension with some very very low offset wheels to get the track back.
A quick fiddle on the calculator reveals the coupe wheelbase is 12.14 percent longer.
So, in order to keep the original mazda wheelbase to track ratio I'd need to increase the track by 12.14 percent too
Again when folks drop a V8 into an mx5 there's an issue with manifold clearance and steering column issues.
Now I have a nice wide engine bay and it would be nice to have the space to build some nice turbo manifolds (forgot to mention my 500bhp target) to fit the large turbo in front of the engine.
As you can see from the pics of the probe, he fitted (welded in the chassis rails of v the mx5) into his engine bay and used the standard mx5 subframe and suspension with some very very low offset wheels to get the track back.
As you can see this did narrow his engine bay.
I'm planning on something quite radical, a stretch of the subframes to get the desired track and return some space in the engine bay.
Which creates it's own issues. Among which requires jigs making to enable the subframe to be fixed to, cut, slid the required distance (170mm) and rebuilt.
I've already scribbled down the designof such jigs and am in the process of collecting the necessary steel for those and the chassis table.
With a stretched front subframe I'll run into a steering issue in the respect of I'll be unable to use the mazda rack.
It was suggested that I just use longer arms but that really throws a spanner in the bump steering works. Demonstrated by the pic below.
I need to keep the link location on the line so a longer rack will be required.
Now widening the subframe 170mm also brings another benefit, the strut top towers in the coupe shell are near as damn it 170mm wider than the mx5. I like that coincidence.
Also the strut top height is considerably higher than the mx5, if this was a mac strut set up, the strut top position is vital to the geometry of the suspension. But this being a double wishbone set up the shock absorber is simply just that.
I don't want to lower the damper location on the coupe shell, as it's a super sstrong structural area.
So I'll need longer dampers. Hmmm again by some forest gump coincidence the Lexus dampers just happen to be the right length (and I just replaced the soggy standard ones with Bilstein B6 sport jobbies) so that's another "meant to be" sign.
Plus they'll handle the added weight of that V8 better than the mx5s would have coped.
As a long-term Fiat Coupe enthusiast, I'm watching this with interest - however, having stripped quite a few Coupes for spares, I foresee a few issues with your plans...
I know about the 66/34 weight distribution of the stock 20VT Coupe - its sometimes a benefit (drag starts) and sometimes a hindrance (change of direction). However, I'm struggling to see how a Lexus V8 lump, even shoved back in the engine bay, is going to change the weight distribution very much. Surely the V8 weighs more than the 2-litre 5-pot (which I accept is no lightweight due the the iron block)
Secondly, I can't imagine the Lexus slush-box is a small piece of kit - to get the engine back in the bay, you're going to have to modify the scuttle, which will then force the 'box even further back - the floorpan tunnel of the Coupe is only big enough for the exhaust, so I think you're going to have to do a lot of fabrication to clear the gearbox, which will then compromise the interior of the Coupe - I suspect you're going to struggle to get seats in, and when you do, they'll be heavily offset
The final issue is that it'll be no faster or neater-handling than a well-modded Coupe. Its pretty easy to get 350-400 bhp and with forged internals, 450-500 and more is perfectly possible. With some choice handling mods, it can even go round corners.
However, I admire your "because it's there..." approach - I have a few connections with Coupe specialists, so if you need any bits, or just component dimensions, let me know and I'll try to help
I know about the 66/34 weight distribution of the stock 20VT Coupe - its sometimes a benefit (drag starts) and sometimes a hindrance (change of direction). However, I'm struggling to see how a Lexus V8 lump, even shoved back in the engine bay, is going to change the weight distribution very much. Surely the V8 weighs more than the 2-litre 5-pot (which I accept is no lightweight due the the iron block)
Secondly, I can't imagine the Lexus slush-box is a small piece of kit - to get the engine back in the bay, you're going to have to modify the scuttle, which will then force the 'box even further back - the floorpan tunnel of the Coupe is only big enough for the exhaust, so I think you're going to have to do a lot of fabrication to clear the gearbox, which will then compromise the interior of the Coupe - I suspect you're going to struggle to get seats in, and when you do, they'll be heavily offset
The final issue is that it'll be no faster or neater-handling than a well-modded Coupe. Its pretty easy to get 350-400 bhp and with forged internals, 450-500 and more is perfectly possible. With some choice handling mods, it can even go round corners.
However, I admire your "because it's there..." approach - I have a few connections with Coupe specialists, so if you need any bits, or just component dimensions, let me know and I'll try to help
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