Discussion
LordGrover said:
Thanks for update. 
Are you entirely catless now then? Assume you'll have to swap in a cat for MOT?
No problem mate!Are you entirely catless now then? Assume you'll have to swap in a cat for MOT?
I am indeed cat-less now. As you say, I'll probably have to stick one in for MOT, or perhaps find a friendly garage..
CABC said:
That is such a cool pairing.
A low BIK Defender. Brilliant!
Cheers mate. Not sure how many other people will have this pair - bit of an odd mixture A low BIK Defender. Brilliant!
C70R said:
A fantastic evolution of a car that I have a bit of a 'thing' for. However, I'm interested in how you view the way you've changed the car during your ownership. You started off talking about how much you loved the compliant suspension and adjustability of the standard tyres - yet, all your modifications have effectively moved you away from a chassis that delivers this.
Do you feel that you've developed it into something that isn't quite as the engineers envisaged (and perhaps misses some of the original car's charm)? Or do you think this was a mission of 'personalisation' as much as anything else?
Thank you very much. Definitely a car I have a thing for too Do you feel that you've developed it into something that isn't quite as the engineers envisaged (and perhaps misses some of the original car's charm)? Or do you think this was a mission of 'personalisation' as much as anything else?
Very happy with the changes I have made to the car, wouldn't be happy going back to standard from the point I've reached. Not implying a standard 86 is bad, but I'm confident in saying what I have now is a far more pointy and pokey proposition.
Don't think I mentioned loving the compliancy of the standard suspension? Perhaps you are referring to the way I thought it tackled bumpy roads in comparison to my old 370z? I think whilst this will be down to the suspension, a lot will also be down to weight and weight distribution.
The 370z is a heavy car for starters, then it's got a big lump of a V6 hanging over its front wheels. I don't think this did many favours when the road got choppy with quick direction changes. Compare this to a GT86 which is relatively light in comparison and has a nice compact boxer engine mounted very low down and far back in the engine bay. This lends itself more favourably to the type of driving I do.
The Tein suspension I have now is only marginally stiffer than a standard GT86 but with the added ability of being able to play with geometry settings to a greater extent.
The tyres I have now are the same Michelin Primacys as the standard car, just 225 section as opposed to 215.
I found the standard car (when really pushing) liked to understeer which required backing off to reel in or a prolonged boot full of power to eventually bring the back end round. With the current suspension setup, geometry and tyres, I've got a car with a lovely neutral adjustable balance which can be flicked into oversteer if the mood takes you, or more so if the skill allows!
In my opinion these cars were made to be modified. When they were first released in Japan, you could buy a properly basic thing with no creature comforts, steel wheels and bare plastic bumpers. This to me is the engineers saying "here's a good starting block, go do your thing and improve on it".
For me, so long as the modifications are done correctly they carry the original charm with them and multiply it.
My mission definitely was/is one of personalisation, but not to the extent of solely concentrating on aesthetics. It's mostly performance orientated - where the modifications have lent themselves to improving the car's appearance as well.
Hope that's a good enough answer
Edited by ECG1000 on Wednesday 3rd August 13:01
ManOpener said:
This just goes to show how fantastic these look with a small number of modifications. I'd initially crossed these off my list of "stuff to look at for next cars", but safe to say, looking at this example it's firmly back on.
Thanks pal. Definitely worth a look at if when you consider changing. As I've said before; make sure you go on a really long test drive!C70R said:
Fair bash, and good on you for replying.
It wasn't intended as a criticism, per se - more an observation that the standard car seems to come in for so much praise, that it almost seems unnecessary to 'mod' it substantially (unless you're unhappy with the power). I guess yours is the thinner end of the wedge in modification terms, but it's a slippery old slope from there in, particularly as good B-Road and Trackday cars are often very different beasts.
It is indeed a slippery slope! Only last night I was out for a b-road blast up Holme Moss, I couldn't help but feel how much some FI wouldn't go amiss. Bearing in mind it's a steep climb to the top.It wasn't intended as a criticism, per se - more an observation that the standard car seems to come in for so much praise, that it almost seems unnecessary to 'mod' it substantially (unless you're unhappy with the power). I guess yours is the thinner end of the wedge in modification terms, but it's a slippery old slope from there in, particularly as good B-Road and Trackday cars are often very different beasts.
But when I'm on flat, tight, twisty roads, I'm more than happy with the performance - especially because you can use all of it most of the time.
Think it's all relative to what type of road you are on. Having said that, the prospect of FI does excite me - just not sure if it'll be a good idea in the long run.
CABC said:
SC rather than turbo, Shirley?
Well, that was the direction I intended to go if I eventually take the plunge - hence forking out for a manifold.But....I went out in a Cosworth Supercharged GT86 the other day and wasn't that impressed.
It was an automatic however which never fails to put an 86 in bad light due to the rubbish gearing. For example, 3rd gear in an auto is pretty much the equivalent to 4th gear in an manual.
Need to go out in a supercharged manual to fully cast my vote. I think turbo will be more exciting in terms of thump in the back grunt but supercharging will lend itself more suitably to the GT86's character.
Edited by ECG1000 on Friday 5th August 14:24
Quickmoose said:
Did you ever see the 'Savage Geese' YouTube channel when they started down the road of tuning a GT86?
Worth searching for it not...
I watch all his stuff.
A dry, quite witty presenter, who has a format and sticks to it, tests anything he can get his hands on, good production, and a sarcastic mechanic for when they get every car up on the lift...
Anyway his earlier stuff details his journey of improving a GT86, but ultimately getting a bit hacked off by it...
Think I have seen that actually. Didn't they stick on a Vortech supercharger and start getting problems with cooling or lack thereof? Worth searching for it not...
I watch all his stuff.
A dry, quite witty presenter, who has a format and sticks to it, tests anything he can get his hands on, good production, and a sarcastic mechanic for when they get every car up on the lift...
Anyway his earlier stuff details his journey of improving a GT86, but ultimately getting a bit hacked off by it...
Quickmoose said:
yeah... amongst a few other things...always chasing issues and not enjoying it, seemed to be their experience..
Fingers crossed I've been ok so far apart from the clicking BC which were swapped for better coilovers.If I did do FI, it would be the tried and tested methods Fensport approve/recommend: Avo for turbo or Cosworth for supercharger.
LordGrover said:
Have you driven the Harrop? It makes a compelling case... if you want the feel of (almost) a big, lazy V8 - with a bit of urgency thrown in.
I haven't sadly. Keep on meaning to organise some kind of meet and encourage FI GT86's to show up so I can have a good chat with owners to see which option is best to live with, most exciting etc.
** Warning, huge waffle ahead **
Haven't updated this thread in a while, so here's an extremely lengthy one about my thoughts and feelings. Could almost be an extract from a teenagers diary.
Just been enjoying the GT86 for what it is. Finding myself using it less for the commute and more on a night for a good tear up when the roads are quieter.
As I mentioned before I went on the Colin Hoad CAT drift training day at Millbrook back in August. I booked the afternoon for one to one tuition. Was a combination of getting to grips (pun not intended) with certain exercises in the Caterham, then jumping into my car and repeating the exercise hoping muscle memory would transfer from one car to the other. I've been lucky to drive a couple of Caterhams at Palmer Sport so had an idea on what to expect.
Was all going well doing little figure of eights round cones etc - then a hop into my car, getting cocky I wanted to try a complete 'circle' type drift. Cones were laid out to mimic a medium sized roundabout, and away I went. I hadn't tried this in the Caterham yet so was trying to run before I could walk. First impressions when getting back into the 86 was how vague and soft it felt! The pointy, feelsome car I once knew and loved had transformed into a boat.... Made me really appreciate how much a Caterham dials you into the road.
The first attempt was dull, juddery understeer, the second attempt resulted in a little skid which I hastily gathered up, the third a whole load of arm twirling and me facing the wrong way. I couldn't find the sweet spot.... After a few more attempts, the best I could do was get halfway round the 'roundabout' and unintentionally straighten up or perform a clumsy pirouette. Apparently, only a small handful of people crack this on their first CAT day. However, I'd imagine that was a kind word to compensate for my ineptness or an effort to cheer me up, or both.
Really quite cross with myself and my car, I trudged back to my trusty old friend the Caterham. First attempt was a little wiggle, then second attempt, I cracked it. Full continuous circles! I found it far more intuitive when I could feel exactly what was going on at terra firma.
Now with a newly acquired spring in my step it was back to the 86. Second try, and again I was round with a massive grin on my face! Like riding a bike.......sort of. It was such a satisfying feeling completing (vaguely) graceful complete circles.
After a brief tiff, I was back in love with the 86.
All in all a very good day out that I'd fully recommend.
Re-visiting the Caterham problem: (already made a thread on here earlier in the year)
I spent the next few weeks pondering the drift day and how good the Caterham felt. This led to reading all the latest reviews and got me thinking about the excitement of owning a 310R. Dreaming of dawn raids on my favourite country roads and making an effort to do more track-days, I picked up the phone to Caterham.
Depending how you see it, a 310 looks fairly reasonable value at 22k. But look again and you’ve to add the R pack to get the LSD, seats, suspension etc. Then there's the 6 speed gearbox, lowered floor and 13" wheels - the list goes on. Oh, and another £1200 for a windscreen!! Why are these necessities not standard fit?!
This all amounts to around 30k! 30k for a 1.6 litre kit car - sounds extortionate if you look at it like that. I hope someone will agree with me here - the price tag makes more sense when you actually experience a Caterham for yourself. There aren't many alternative 4 wheeled options that offer the same excitement for the same money. Almost forgot to mention the extra £3000 required for Caterham to build the car for you. I would attempt to build the car myself (with lots of help from my boss) so at least I could save a bit there and achieve a greater sense of satisfaction.
The thing that throws me is sinking that much into something that will essentially be a very impractical toy. It’s more of an A to A car, rather than A to B, unless B has some form of shelter to park in. However, I’ve always wanted to own a Caterham and hopefully will do someday, if not in the near future.
I’m test driving a 270R down at Donnington on the 29th to get an idea of how a 310 will steer, so we’ll go from there.
So if I don’t chop the 86 in for a Caterham, the idea is to make it a bit more mental – more of an event to pedal.
To turbo or to supercharge... Far cheaper than buying a 310!
Turbo is slightly cheaper and gives a lot more scope for extra power due to being easy to upgrade in the future. Will also be cool experience the whooshes and bang associated with turbo-charging. But then there’s the risk of turning the car into something too ‘boosty’ making it difficult to drive in a linier fashion. And... as I’ll be going with an Avo setup, it’ll have to be an unequal length manifold – I don’t like a boxer burble unless it’s coming from an Impreza. There are other options out there to get round this but Fensport (who I trust implicitly) recommend (and know intimately) Avo, so that’s what I’ll go with.
Supercharger will be in the form of a Cosworth setup. More responsive, linear low end and I’ll be able to keep my equal length manifold for the maniac howl I’ve become accustomed to. Cosworth have put a lot of time into the development process so you know you’re getting a very good quality product that’s going to be kind to your engine.
But.... this option is slightly more expensive and you’re limited to 280 to 300bhp. Any higher than that and you’re into bigger bucks in the shape of forged internals etc.
At the moment I’m leaning slightly towards turbo due to the power advantages later down the line. This view changes from day to day though.
If I were to get rid of the 86 for a Caterham, it wouldn’t be because I don’t like the car anymore, it would simply be because it’s time for a change – having owned the car for two and a bit years, and the fact I’ve always wanted a Seven. Whilst I’m in the right situation to be able to own a Caterham, I might as well take the leap?
At the moment I’m more leaning to sticking with what I’ve got but we’ll see what the 29th brings.
Comments and criticisms (of which I’ll suspect there to be a few) welcome!
If you’ve got this far, well done – hope I haven’t bored you to tears! Just helps me getting my thoughts onto paper.
Here’s a picture of my dog to cheer you up:
Haven't updated this thread in a while, so here's an extremely lengthy one about my thoughts and feelings. Could almost be an extract from a teenagers diary.
Just been enjoying the GT86 for what it is. Finding myself using it less for the commute and more on a night for a good tear up when the roads are quieter.
As I mentioned before I went on the Colin Hoad CAT drift training day at Millbrook back in August. I booked the afternoon for one to one tuition. Was a combination of getting to grips (pun not intended) with certain exercises in the Caterham, then jumping into my car and repeating the exercise hoping muscle memory would transfer from one car to the other. I've been lucky to drive a couple of Caterhams at Palmer Sport so had an idea on what to expect.
Was all going well doing little figure of eights round cones etc - then a hop into my car, getting cocky I wanted to try a complete 'circle' type drift. Cones were laid out to mimic a medium sized roundabout, and away I went. I hadn't tried this in the Caterham yet so was trying to run before I could walk. First impressions when getting back into the 86 was how vague and soft it felt! The pointy, feelsome car I once knew and loved had transformed into a boat.... Made me really appreciate how much a Caterham dials you into the road.
The first attempt was dull, juddery understeer, the second attempt resulted in a little skid which I hastily gathered up, the third a whole load of arm twirling and me facing the wrong way. I couldn't find the sweet spot.... After a few more attempts, the best I could do was get halfway round the 'roundabout' and unintentionally straighten up or perform a clumsy pirouette. Apparently, only a small handful of people crack this on their first CAT day. However, I'd imagine that was a kind word to compensate for my ineptness or an effort to cheer me up, or both.
Really quite cross with myself and my car, I trudged back to my trusty old friend the Caterham. First attempt was a little wiggle, then second attempt, I cracked it. Full continuous circles! I found it far more intuitive when I could feel exactly what was going on at terra firma.
Now with a newly acquired spring in my step it was back to the 86. Second try, and again I was round with a massive grin on my face! Like riding a bike.......sort of. It was such a satisfying feeling completing (vaguely) graceful complete circles.
After a brief tiff, I was back in love with the 86.
All in all a very good day out that I'd fully recommend.
Re-visiting the Caterham problem: (already made a thread on here earlier in the year)
I spent the next few weeks pondering the drift day and how good the Caterham felt. This led to reading all the latest reviews and got me thinking about the excitement of owning a 310R. Dreaming of dawn raids on my favourite country roads and making an effort to do more track-days, I picked up the phone to Caterham.
Depending how you see it, a 310 looks fairly reasonable value at 22k. But look again and you’ve to add the R pack to get the LSD, seats, suspension etc. Then there's the 6 speed gearbox, lowered floor and 13" wheels - the list goes on. Oh, and another £1200 for a windscreen!! Why are these necessities not standard fit?!
This all amounts to around 30k! 30k for a 1.6 litre kit car - sounds extortionate if you look at it like that. I hope someone will agree with me here - the price tag makes more sense when you actually experience a Caterham for yourself. There aren't many alternative 4 wheeled options that offer the same excitement for the same money. Almost forgot to mention the extra £3000 required for Caterham to build the car for you. I would attempt to build the car myself (with lots of help from my boss) so at least I could save a bit there and achieve a greater sense of satisfaction.
The thing that throws me is sinking that much into something that will essentially be a very impractical toy. It’s more of an A to A car, rather than A to B, unless B has some form of shelter to park in. However, I’ve always wanted to own a Caterham and hopefully will do someday, if not in the near future.
I’m test driving a 270R down at Donnington on the 29th to get an idea of how a 310 will steer, so we’ll go from there.
So if I don’t chop the 86 in for a Caterham, the idea is to make it a bit more mental – more of an event to pedal.
To turbo or to supercharge... Far cheaper than buying a 310!
Turbo is slightly cheaper and gives a lot more scope for extra power due to being easy to upgrade in the future. Will also be cool experience the whooshes and bang associated with turbo-charging. But then there’s the risk of turning the car into something too ‘boosty’ making it difficult to drive in a linier fashion. And... as I’ll be going with an Avo setup, it’ll have to be an unequal length manifold – I don’t like a boxer burble unless it’s coming from an Impreza. There are other options out there to get round this but Fensport (who I trust implicitly) recommend (and know intimately) Avo, so that’s what I’ll go with.
Supercharger will be in the form of a Cosworth setup. More responsive, linear low end and I’ll be able to keep my equal length manifold for the maniac howl I’ve become accustomed to. Cosworth have put a lot of time into the development process so you know you’re getting a very good quality product that’s going to be kind to your engine.
But.... this option is slightly more expensive and you’re limited to 280 to 300bhp. Any higher than that and you’re into bigger bucks in the shape of forged internals etc.
At the moment I’m leaning slightly towards turbo due to the power advantages later down the line. This view changes from day to day though.
If I were to get rid of the 86 for a Caterham, it wouldn’t be because I don’t like the car anymore, it would simply be because it’s time for a change – having owned the car for two and a bit years, and the fact I’ve always wanted a Seven. Whilst I’m in the right situation to be able to own a Caterham, I might as well take the leap?
At the moment I’m more leaning to sticking with what I’ve got but we’ll see what the 29th brings.
Comments and criticisms (of which I’ll suspect there to be a few) welcome!
If you’ve got this far, well done – hope I haven’t bored you to tears! Just helps me getting my thoughts onto paper.
Here’s a picture of my dog to cheer you up:
LordGrover said:
Surely forged internals would be required for the turbo if venturing north of +350BHP no matter whether turbo or supercharged?
This is true, but I think 350 will be more than enough for me. The Fensport car has 335bhp (standard internals at the time) in this video
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut55yR2Yu8M ) of it keeping up with a McLaren. Puts into perspective of how nuts that'll be.
I'd probably start out at 280 to 300 then build up over time to 330 to 350.
LordGrover said:
The first looks similar to DaveJH's - he let me have a go in it a few posts down here: click.
Very quick and very 'drivable' too.
Read that post of yours many times Very quick and very 'drivable' too.
It's a good write up. When you say there is no lag, is it just immediate power, not (for want of a better word) a 'swoop'' of grunt?
My worry with going turbo is that I'll be messing about having a bit of fun skidding out of corners and all of a sudden the turbo will boost, and I'll be facing the wrong way!
liner33 said:
I have to say having been in the same position many many times and gone the "more power" route it rarely works out
Any money you put into the 86 will be gone , you wont get it back when you sell , any money you put into a Caterham you will
If the 86 feels "vague and soft" it always will
The only thing the 86 has going for it is practicality and once you spend a ton getting more power and better handling you will lose most of that
That's the worry I have; chucking more money at it for more power could end up being a bottomless pit.Any money you put into the 86 will be gone , you wont get it back when you sell , any money you put into a Caterham you will
If the 86 feels "vague and soft" it always will
The only thing the 86 has going for it is practicality and once you spend a ton getting more power and better handling you will lose most of that
It only felt vague and soft when I stepped into it immediately after driving the Caterham. Normally, it feels like a go-kart.
It's wonderful problem to have choosing between a boosted GT86 or Caterham. A harder decision for me to make due to how much I love the Toyota. Out of all the cars I have ever owned, it is hands down my favourite.
LordGrover said:
Heh! Try driving an Aygo loaner for a week or so, then get back in the GT86.
Had the luxury of an Aygo when it went if for paint actually. Airbox lid magically loosened itself off a soon as I left the garage. Was quite fun after that CABC said:
An 86 is more of a light daily driver/ practical car that delivers fun and great driving dynamics.
For a w/end or fun only car I'd move on to Lotus, Caterham.
Mod costs are nearly always sunk cash. Even worse, reduce the market appeal.
Yeah, I've looked into Lotuses (Loti??) before but ruled them out in favour of a Caterham.For a w/end or fun only car I'd move on to Lotus, Caterham.
Mod costs are nearly always sunk cash. Even worse, reduce the market appeal.
I'm hoping if I were to sell the 86 in the condition it's in now, someone might find it more appealing than a standard car due to it being tastefully modified. Could be a whishfull thinking...
OwenK said:
I agree, I used to be a big modifier, I loved creating something new and that feeling of really making something, but I've gotten fed up of the sunk costs. I was never under any illusion that it would be any different, but when you start adding up the money you've spent... noticing that you've built something pretty temperamental and compromised, for a sum that you could have spent on something you genuinely lust after & would have similar performance, better reliability plus probably even more appeal in other areas, PLUS retained its value for when you want to trade up... it does make you think.
A very good point. Does make me think a fair bit. *goes off to stare vacantly into space, stroking (imaginary) beard.
Been a while since I've updated this thread!
Last time, I had bought a Caterham ( thread here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ) and was going to sell the 86. Well, in the end I didn't do the latter. Just couldn't bear to get rid of my favourite car. Even if I don't find as much time as I'd like to drive it, I know full well I'd regret selling it.
I have a sneaky suspicion manufacturers will stop making cars like the 86 soon. Everyone seems to be obsessing over multiple driving modes, and infotainment systems that can turn on your paddleshift oven 10 minutes before you pull up on your driveway; All unnecessary gimmicks in my opinion.
Manual cars that you can just get in a drive will soon be a thing of the past I fear. I notice buttons have crept onto the steering wheels of the facelift GT86/BRZ - a minor issue, but to me detracts from the simplicity of the car. ....Yes I am a bit of a luddite.
So the plan is to keep the 86 for as long as I can!
Celebratory doughnut, yay
! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKTtbTQDtU
I had recently been driving it and noticed the brakes weren't doing much in the way of slowing me down. The current set had done a full day at Blyton and plenty of hoonage in the past year or so.
So a new set of Hawk front pads were ordered from Fensport:
Last time I swapped the pads over, I copper greased all the relative bolts so everything came apart fairly easily:
New vs old:
There was more meat on the old pads than expected. I thought they were going to be nearly down to the metal.
Although the inner pads on both sides were quite badly pitted.
When the car's sat overnight having been driven in the rain, the pads stick to the discs. I can hear a "clunk" as they release when driving off the next day. Wonder if this has caused it... Can any brake experts shed light on this?
New pads in:
Who needs a piston rewind tool!:
That red stuff is supposed to be anti-squeal grease. 86's can be notorious for this.
All back together again, and ready for bedding in:
I used the Italian tune up method of bedding the pads in:
Find a nice stretch of straight road, do 3 - 4 stops to from 45mph. Don't stop completely. This gets the brakes warmed up a bit so they're not going from clap cold to red hot in the next process.
Then do 10 aggressive stops from 60mph to 15mph. Again, don't stop completely.
After this cruise around for 10 minutes trying to use the brakes as little as possible to allow the pads to cool down.
Never used this method before, but it seems to have done the trick.
Next plan will be a track day hopefully. Keen to do a wet day so I can really have a play without being told off for tyre squeal!
Last time, I had bought a Caterham ( thread here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ) and was going to sell the 86. Well, in the end I didn't do the latter. Just couldn't bear to get rid of my favourite car. Even if I don't find as much time as I'd like to drive it, I know full well I'd regret selling it.
I have a sneaky suspicion manufacturers will stop making cars like the 86 soon. Everyone seems to be obsessing over multiple driving modes, and infotainment systems that can turn on your paddleshift oven 10 minutes before you pull up on your driveway; All unnecessary gimmicks in my opinion.
Manual cars that you can just get in a drive will soon be a thing of the past I fear. I notice buttons have crept onto the steering wheels of the facelift GT86/BRZ - a minor issue, but to me detracts from the simplicity of the car. ....Yes I am a bit of a luddite.
So the plan is to keep the 86 for as long as I can!
Celebratory doughnut, yay
! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKTtbTQDtUI had recently been driving it and noticed the brakes weren't doing much in the way of slowing me down. The current set had done a full day at Blyton and plenty of hoonage in the past year or so.
So a new set of Hawk front pads were ordered from Fensport:
Last time I swapped the pads over, I copper greased all the relative bolts so everything came apart fairly easily:
New vs old:
There was more meat on the old pads than expected. I thought they were going to be nearly down to the metal.
Although the inner pads on both sides were quite badly pitted.
When the car's sat overnight having been driven in the rain, the pads stick to the discs. I can hear a "clunk" as they release when driving off the next day. Wonder if this has caused it... Can any brake experts shed light on this?
New pads in:
Who needs a piston rewind tool!:
That red stuff is supposed to be anti-squeal grease. 86's can be notorious for this.
All back together again, and ready for bedding in:
I used the Italian tune up method of bedding the pads in:
Find a nice stretch of straight road, do 3 - 4 stops to from 45mph. Don't stop completely. This gets the brakes warmed up a bit so they're not going from clap cold to red hot in the next process.
Then do 10 aggressive stops from 60mph to 15mph. Again, don't stop completely.
After this cruise around for 10 minutes trying to use the brakes as little as possible to allow the pads to cool down.
Never used this method before, but it seems to have done the trick.
Next plan will be a track day hopefully. Keen to do a wet day so I can really have a play without being told off for tyre squeal!
Edited by ECG1000 on Thursday 2nd March 12:17
ECG1000 said:
So the plan is to keep the 86 for as long as I can!
Famous last words..... Edited by ECG1000 on Thursday 2nd March 12:17
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