The 12C in hindsight

The 12C in hindsight

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Discussion

Zadkiel

Original Poster:

390 posts

145 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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I have a two part question here for 12C owners. Firstly, when released they were pretty largely accused of being lacking in fun or involvement. Widely labelled as very fast but somehow missing something special. Now this seems to be mentioned less when looking back on them in hindsight. So is this because a) It was overplayed when new and they weren't really that lacking. b) They are a bit older now and the bar for judging them has been lowered a bit so they don't seem as bad. c) It's just not mentioned as much due to them being replaced but the label stands true.

And the second part of this, if it is a fair call to say they are certainly lacking something that the latter McLarens thoroughly rectified, can this be fixed? Is it the suspension tuning, the engine tuning, the tyres, something simple? Or is it a fundamental characteristic of the car itself that will never change.

I can't help but feel it can't be too fundamentally ingrained since the 650S shares the engine and chassis and supposedly did much to fix this. However of course McLaren claim the 650S was vastly changed so maybe this is true.

Please leave out any biases or preferences on 12C vs 650S due to looks or anything else. Just interested in this key attribute.

The Surveyor

7,576 posts

236 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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I can't comment on anything technical and would leave that to those on here who know much more about the oily bits, but a lot would depend upon what you are trying to achieve.

With 12c's sitting around the £120k mark, it wouldn't take you too long to spend enough money to put your outlay in new 540/570 territory, a car which will give you much more engaging dynamics out of the box if that's what you're after. Spend a little more on the 12c's performance and you would soon be in 650 money.

Remembering that you would never get back the money you spend on modifications when you come to sell, and in some cases it would make the car less valuable that an unmodified car, personally I'd either enjoy the original dynamics of the 12c as it was, or spend the extra on the later car.

isaldiri

18,412 posts

167 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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I think it is true of the modern Mclaren cars, the 12c feels the most 'unspecial' in normal (slow) speeds in it's comfort modes. The journalists if not actual buyers seem to have the preference of wanting cars that feel alert and twitchy right from the get go and Mclaren definitely have increasingly moved that way with ever quicker steering racks and firmer suspension on 'normal'. when driving quickly though I personally found very little difference between the 650 and 12c (on track the 650 has a bit more front grip i think though). On a fast road or on track I personally don't think the 12c has ever not been great fun though but I could understand why many did prefer the 458 as well.

Personally the biggest change in character to the 12c was when i stuck a set of bucket seats and cup tyres on the car. It's transformed the car and now loses very little if anything to most other cars (any 991/981 GT porsche for example) in 'feel' as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by isaldiri on Friday 18th November 10:13

RamboLambo

4,843 posts

169 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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The Surveyor said:
I can't comment on anything technical and would leave that to those on here who know much more about the oily bits, but a lot would depend upon what you are trying to achieve.

With 12c's sitting around the £120k mark, it wouldn't take you too long to spend enough money to put your outlay in new 540/570 territory, a car which will give you much more engaging dynamics out of the box if that's what you're after. Spend a little more on the 12c's performance and you would soon be in 650 money.

Remembering that you would never get back the money you spend on modifications when you come to sell, and in some cases it would make the car less valuable that an unmodified car, personally I'd either enjoy the original dynamics of the 12c as it was, or spend the extra on the later car.
I think these are wise words in terms of trying to make the car something different. Ok a set of bucket/racing seats isn't going to hurt but big changes from OEM spec is very personal and likely to put others off buying it so only go that route if you intend to keep the car a very long time. There is a 12C coupe with racing seats and CCB for sale which is a rare spec but at the top of the price range. At least its OEM
McLaren made lots of small software changes to MP4 12C ( FOC upgrades ) to get to 12C due to the over the top / unfair press criticism at MP4 12C launch but then addressed it further with 25% new parts on the new model generation 650S
A further £20k over that particular rare and high spec 12C car would get you into a 650S coupe. Then at that price point if you don't want a supercar series car you can have a sports series car in the 570S which is probably more the type of ride you are looking for

12C is a fantastic car in its own right. Not necessarily loud and lairy like a Lambo or Ferrari but dynamically ahead of its time.
The fact that journo's couldn't drift it round a track at silly speeds at therefore harshly criticised it is a little irrelevant in the real world.
The car also needs to be driven for a long period to be fully appreciated. Very few people "get it" on an hours test drive.
I drove several from launch and over an 18 month period before trying to buy one.
Eventually I ended up in a new 650S spider which has a lot more feel/soul/connection/sound/emotion to it IMHO but upped my budget by £80k which I appreciate was mad and not everyone is going to do that but personally I thought it was worth and still do today although the price gap on a used one is now only £40k today.

Whatever you decide to buy 12C, 570S or 650S McLarens represent great value for money and are bargain supercars IMHO. You are not paying a massive premium for the badge but with an rapidly growing brand appeal and following this won't always be the case.
As demand increases prices will definitely firm and as the early cars 12C/650S are low production numbers they will become sought after.

Ferrari's are silly prices at the moment and how anyone can compare a 12C with a similar price F430 is beyond me

BruceC

373 posts

238 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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For once Ramboland I entirely agree - 430 in no way at all compare to a 12c.

12c is a league in front of 430 but 458 not so sure but still competes

rev-erend

21,404 posts

283 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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You might want to take a look at EVO magazine - as the just had a mega test of most McLaren models.

GT Two

3,070 posts

191 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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I've had mainly analogue cars in the past, lots of 911's, GT3, GT2, Turbo and air cooled stuff, 1970's, 80's, 90's.

The 12c is awesome and I love driving it. I have never once thought it felt boring or too clinical. You can induce small slides if thats your thing and the turn in is lovely.

Would I have a 650, yes. Would I have a 458, yes. Would I have a 675LT very much yes. They all cost a fair chunk more and at the current values the 12c is a bargain.

The 570 I have not driven but it looks baby McLaren to me. I'm sure it is great but I couldn't love it like I love the 12c or I would a 650s.

Drive them and decide.


Bispal

1,603 posts

150 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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There's a question! I agree with almost everything Rambo has said (for once, whats going on!), esp. in relation to the upgrades made to ALL 12C's post media tests. This is why the 12C spider didn't get any criticism, only acclaim. All 12C coupes should now have been updated to the spider spec.

After 6,000 miles and 10 months in a 12C and having recently spent a day in a 458 I have some fresh observations. The 12C is a great everyday supercar. If you are pootling along the M25 at 75mph it rides like a Bentley, is quiet and returns 35mpg. If you twiddle the dials the whole character changes and it is very, very fast, I believe those who have experienced both will not disagree when I say it feels a lot faster than a 458 at full pelt. When you are on it, it is ludicrous and its performance can only be compared to the USS Enterprise. I don't believe the 458 has that ability to change character.

The 458 tickles the emotions a bit more, the gearbox is slightly faster and the engine / exhaust does sound better, but ultimately its not as quick and doesn't ride as well. However the 458 is a great car and after spending a day in one it does raise questions in relation to the 12C. However I think those questions can be answered mostly by a sports exhaust and a spider roof!

For a blast on a sunny day with the roof down a 458 spider is amazing for a few hours, however the 12C is the more comfortable cruiser and faster, both cars are amazing and its a very difficult choice. The 458 offers more instant gratification through the emotional sounds it makes while the 12C takes longer to get to know.

There is no right answer and presently a 12C is £20-£30k less than a 458 so its the bargain car. This was the dilemma I faced 10 months ago and if I were to sell the 12C (probably getting my money back). I would face it all over again, 12C spider or 458? With the price differentials still the same I would probably go for the McLaren again (but a spider with sports exhaust) as it is still £30k cheaper. If they were the same price I think I would try a 458 for a year but to me the 12C feels more special, the public seem to like it more and its very easy to own and very comfortable. I would probably be back in a 12C the year after though.

Not sure this answers your question, so far, but its an honest comparison of a 12C and what is perceived as the more 'characterful' car, the 458. So to answer your question yes the 12C has bags of character and emotion and is insanely fast. You can play with it, it will slide and it does sound great outside, but the 458 does sound better inside. However the 458 is still not perfect in the sound department, there is a fakeness in there with the valves that I can't quite put my finger on and that bothered me. They are both great, amazing cars and the 12C stacks up well to the 458 and exceeds it in many areas.








Edited by Bispal on Friday 18th November 18:46

RamboLambo

4,843 posts

169 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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The difference between the Ferrari and McLaren only increases in spider form as don't underestimate the importance of the carbon tub for lightness and rigidity.
Its easy for people to dismiss it on a 20 minute test drive when you are trying to take everything in and that 458 sound beckons but TBH it needs to be loud to drown out all the Shake Rattle and Roll.

Creaks, squeaks, rattles annoy me immensely and should not be present in any car let alone a £200,000 supercar.

If you are OCD, which I admit I am, you need to choose a carbon tubbed car if its a spider. Once you have experienced a McLaren spider you would not go back to anything else believe me it only makes the scuttle shake more apparent and annoying.

SELON

1,172 posts

128 months

Friday 18th November 2016
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I never understood the criticism of the car. Inevitably comparisons are made with other cars, which iare always subjective.
Does the 12C lack emotion and "fizz"? In normal/normal/auto mode, then answer is yes. Because it's meant to be a cruiser. And what a lovely one too. The 'ring to Calais on one tank and a steady 100mph (where allowed smile )
And then when you want a bit of fun on twisty roads, you can simply turn the dials and it's a ton of fun. And fast. plenty of steering feel, great turn in, able to hustle it along with the best of them. And it's got a great driving position and a good size boot. The other thing you feel is how close to the road you are with a bit of noise from loose chips hitting the underside of the tub.

After driving it it for a while it became more and more obvious why Mclaren, at launch, called it an "and" car.

I know you excluded looks, but I followed one on a run out last Sunday. It looks stunning and everybit the supercar.

RamboLambo

4,843 posts

169 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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Yes it does look stunning compared with other supercars. Small things like the single wiper blade, active air brake/spoiler, exhaust exits and door mirror design make it stand out from say Ferrari and Lambo's as more of a SUPERcar.

The build quality is also top notch but more so on the later ones and particularly 650s by which time everything was ironed out. Can't say why but 650S does feel more solid than 12C though

isaldiri

18,412 posts

167 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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RamboLambo said:
The build quality is also top notch but more so on the later ones and particularly 650s by which time everything was ironed out. Can't say why but 650S does feel more solid than 12C though
What's the world coming to. I'd agree with you here too. The 650 feels a lot more solidly screwed together than any 12c i have driven, even the late 12c's.

Slarti650

1,828 posts

153 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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When I had my 12c I slammed on the brakes when caught in suddenly slowing traffic on the M40. My rear wing came up to near vertical and boy was that awesome. Brought out the child in me. Stuck with Mclaren ever since.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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OK, who hijacked Rambo's login. smile.

It's like you've turned down the volume from 11 to a very listenable 8!! Keep it up Rambo.

I'll be the third to say I agree with all he's posted here today.

I ordered a 540 last year but pulled out due to a property purchase. After spending time looking at all the options I have to say that a 12C is indeed a supercar bargain and probably the one I'd go for unless I magically found £40k down the back of the sofa.

GT3ZZZ

924 posts

169 months

Saturday 19th November 2016
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After 3 and a half years of ownership from new, I drove my 12C Spider for the last time today. i never recognised all the boll*** in the mags, it was one of the best cars i've ever owned and never missed a beat mechanically or electrically. It was blindingly fast and great at seeing off GT3's on track days or pottering about on a Sunday with the roof off.

McLaren Manchester are selling it on so it will be on sale at a northern independent dealer shortly. Pearl White with lots of carbon and MSO stuff, < 7,000 miles, a bargain for someone. At least I have a new 675LT Spider to console me smile


Zadkiel

Original Poster:

390 posts

145 months

Friday 25th November 2016
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Interesting responses. I read the Evo story but it didn't really conclude things as well as I would have liked. I'm finding it very tricky to choose between all of these McLarens!

Bispal

1,603 posts

150 months

Friday 25th November 2016
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Zadkiel said:
Interesting responses. I read the Evo story but it didn't really conclude things as well as I would have liked. I'm finding it very tricky to choose between all of these McLarens!
You need to drive them! Also remember EVO used the oldest most abused 12C to test and not a 'fresh' car like the others. All McLarens are brilliant :-)


GT3ZZZ

924 posts

169 months

Friday 25th November 2016
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Ignore the hacks at Evo. They drive these cars for half a day and then go home in their 2.0 Tdi's. And all the bigger names have left this year.

I owned a 12C from new for 3.5 years and it was fabulous, never missed a beat and always involving and engaging and I'm a serial Porsche GT3 owner. Its a fantastic buy right now.

RamboLambo

4,843 posts

169 months

Friday 25th November 2016
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Prices seem to be on the rise which is bucking the market trend especially going into winter.
Maybe the general public have finally woken to the brilliance of the car

TP321

1,475 posts

197 months

Friday 25th November 2016
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RamboLambo said:
Prices seem to be on the rise which is bucking the market trend especially going into winter.
Maybe the general public have finally woken to the brilliance of the car
Evidence of rising prices??