2013 Ferrari FF
Discussion
Fonzey said:
NRG1976 said:
I’m waiting with baited breath for skwdenyer’s review of the bolts sent to him 
Don't hold your breath, I've not sent any yet!
milu said:
I have a similar noise on my V8 Vantage.
Been there ages.
Had it serviced and no finding the cause.
Different handbrake set up so have tried applying it but no different
Service guy wondered about a wheel bearing maybe. Could be,but it’s taking a long while to develop if correct
No one can hear it really,apart from me and the service guy.
I’m wondering if only came about when I went from P zero to PS4?
I'm trying to convince myself that the noise was there before I swapped tyres but I'm becoming less and less convincing!Been there ages.
Had it serviced and no finding the cause.
Different handbrake set up so have tried applying it but no different
Service guy wondered about a wheel bearing maybe. Could be,but it’s taking a long while to develop if correct
No one can hear it really,apart from me and the service guy.
I’m wondering if only came about when I went from P zero to PS4?
It would be annoying if it is the PS4S's, but reassuring I guess that it's nothing mechanical.
I can’t make out from your picture how the handbrake adjuster works, but my suggestion is to back off that side totally for a test drive to retract the shoes well away from the drum.
I’m sorry if you already know this stuff as you seem like a good mechanic but just in case it helps here is a decent picture of a traditional adjuster, actually on my M4 bmw. You can see I marked with a pen the direction to turn the wheel to back off the shoe. The idea with the bmw is that with everything built up you shove a screwdriver into one of the holes for the wheel bolts, which you line up with the adjuster, and then you can “flip” the adjuster round a few pegs at a time.
On your car here you can see that there is something there but I can’t make out exactly how that works to enable the same adjustments:
What is interesting is that the exploded diagram for the car shows part 18 called “regulator” which implies some adjustment , and, I’m sure I can make out teeth on the image - doesn’t quite look like your photo.
Edited to add - now I’ve stared at the image I can actually see the pegs. You can do it, exactly the same way, the pegs are just very few around the adjuster in a way that made it hard to see but now it’s very obvious!
I’m sorry if you already know this stuff as you seem like a good mechanic but just in case it helps here is a decent picture of a traditional adjuster, actually on my M4 bmw. You can see I marked with a pen the direction to turn the wheel to back off the shoe. The idea with the bmw is that with everything built up you shove a screwdriver into one of the holes for the wheel bolts, which you line up with the adjuster, and then you can “flip” the adjuster round a few pegs at a time.
On your car here you can see that there is something there but I can’t make out exactly how that works to enable the same adjustments:
What is interesting is that the exploded diagram for the car shows part 18 called “regulator” which implies some adjustment , and, I’m sure I can make out teeth on the image - doesn’t quite look like your photo.
Edited to add - now I’ve stared at the image I can actually see the pegs. You can do it, exactly the same way, the pegs are just very few around the adjuster in a way that made it hard to see but now it’s very obvious!
Edited by Julian Thompson on Friday 20th October 09:49
Julian Thompson said:
I can’t make out from your picture how the handbrake adjuster works, but my suggestion is to back off that side totally for a test drive to retract the shoes well away from the drum.
I’m sorry if you already know this stuff as you seem like a good mechanic but just in case it helps here is a decent picture of a traditional adjuster, actually on my M4 bmw. You can see I marked with a pen the direction to turn the wheel to back off the shoe. The idea with the bmw is that with everything built up you shove a screwdriver into one of the holes for the wheel bolts, which you line up with the adjuster, and then you can “flip” the adjuster round a few pegs at a time.
On your car here you can see that there is something there but I can’t make out exactly how that works to enable the same adjustments:
What is interesting is that the exploded diagram for the car shows part 18 called “regulator” which implies some adjustment , and, I’m sure I can make out teeth on the image - doesn’t quite look like your photo.
Edited to add - now I’ve stared at the image I can actually see the pegs. You can do it, exactly the same way, the pegs are just very few around the adjuster in a way that made it hard to see but now it’s very obvious!
Slightly off-topic but is there anyway to improve the handbrake holding capability on the M cars, unless I completely wrench my one to the extreme the car will always roll slightly !I’m sorry if you already know this stuff as you seem like a good mechanic but just in case it helps here is a decent picture of a traditional adjuster, actually on my M4 bmw. You can see I marked with a pen the direction to turn the wheel to back off the shoe. The idea with the bmw is that with everything built up you shove a screwdriver into one of the holes for the wheel bolts, which you line up with the adjuster, and then you can “flip” the adjuster round a few pegs at a time.
On your car here you can see that there is something there but I can’t make out exactly how that works to enable the same adjustments:
What is interesting is that the exploded diagram for the car shows part 18 called “regulator” which implies some adjustment , and, I’m sure I can make out teeth on the image - doesn’t quite look like your photo.
Edited to add - now I’ve stared at the image I can actually see the pegs. You can do it, exactly the same way, the pegs are just very few around the adjuster in a way that made it hard to see but now it’s very obvious!
Edited by Julian Thompson on Friday 20th October 09:49
NRG1976 said:
Julian Thompson said:
I can’t make out from your picture how the handbrake adjuster works, but my suggestion is to back off that side totally for a test drive to retract the shoes well away from the drum.
I’m sorry if you already know this stuff as you seem like a good mechanic but just in case it helps here is a decent picture of a traditional adjuster, actually on my M4 bmw. You can see I marked with a pen the direction to turn the wheel to back off the shoe. The idea with the bmw is that with everything built up you shove a screwdriver into one of the holes for the wheel bolts, which you line up with the adjuster, and then you can “flip” the adjuster round a few pegs at a time.
On your car here you can see that there is something there but I can’t make out exactly how that works to enable the same adjustments:
What is interesting is that the exploded diagram for the car shows part 18 called “regulator” which implies some adjustment , and, I’m sure I can make out teeth on the image - doesn’t quite look like your photo.
Edited to add - now I’ve stared at the image I can actually see the pegs. You can do it, exactly the same way, the pegs are just very few around the adjuster in a way that made it hard to see but now it’s very obvious!
Slightly off-topic but is there anyway to improve the handbrake holding capability on the M cars, unless I completely wrench my one to the extreme the car will always roll slightly !I’m sorry if you already know this stuff as you seem like a good mechanic but just in case it helps here is a decent picture of a traditional adjuster, actually on my M4 bmw. You can see I marked with a pen the direction to turn the wheel to back off the shoe. The idea with the bmw is that with everything built up you shove a screwdriver into one of the holes for the wheel bolts, which you line up with the adjuster, and then you can “flip” the adjuster round a few pegs at a time.
On your car here you can see that there is something there but I can’t make out exactly how that works to enable the same adjustments:
What is interesting is that the exploded diagram for the car shows part 18 called “regulator” which implies some adjustment , and, I’m sure I can make out teeth on the image - doesn’t quite look like your photo.
Edited to add - now I’ve stared at the image I can actually see the pegs. You can do it, exactly the same way, the pegs are just very few around the adjuster in a way that made it hard to see but now it’s very obvious!
Edited by Julian Thompson on Friday 20th October 09:49
If you do all the adjusting on the central adjuster not only do you not get even pull necessarily but also you don’t press the shoe into the drum in an even way as it’s hinging from the back and if the back is effectively too narrow only a small contact patch happens and you get a bad handbrake power.
Hope that helps a bit.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Friday 20th October 22:04
Thanks all for the comments and pointers.
I did back the adjuster wheel off a few clicks last time but maybe I didn't do enough, maybe the linkage is seized(?), so it needs another look.
I think my next plan if it ever stops raining is to:
1. Back adjuster right off, and make sure I take measurements or visually can confirm that it's actually retracted the shoes
2. If test-drive fails, I'll adjust it back and I'll swap the two rear wheels over to see if the noise moves.
3. If that still hasn't sorted it, and noise is still from the NSR, then I may look at taking that corner apart, driveshaft can stay in the box, but everything else can come off. Bit of a last resort as it's just recently had an alignment but I feel like I need to give the wheel bearing a completely unloaded spin by hand to see if it's grabbing or in any way uneven.
I did back the adjuster wheel off a few clicks last time but maybe I didn't do enough, maybe the linkage is seized(?), so it needs another look.
I think my next plan if it ever stops raining is to:
1. Back adjuster right off, and make sure I take measurements or visually can confirm that it's actually retracted the shoes
2. If test-drive fails, I'll adjust it back and I'll swap the two rear wheels over to see if the noise moves.
3. If that still hasn't sorted it, and noise is still from the NSR, then I may look at taking that corner apart, driveshaft can stay in the box, but everything else can come off. Bit of a last resort as it's just recently had an alignment but I feel like I need to give the wheel bearing a completely unloaded spin by hand to see if it's grabbing or in any way uneven.
Julian Thompson said:
Yes of course just take the back wheels off, gain access to the adjusters through the wheel bolt holes (torch required!) and access the preload adjustment on the cable under the centre armrest or tunnel. You want to set it up with the independent wheel adjusters so that with no preload on the front cable you can get it to just kiss the drum on both sides, then back it off until it literally just stops touching. Then bring in some preload on the cable using the central adjuster until you set the brake to the height you want.
If you do all the adjusting on the central adjuster not only do you not get even pull necessarily but also you don’t press the shoe into the drum in an even way as it’s hinging from the back and if the back is effectively too narrow only a small contact patch happens and you get a bad handbrake power.
Hope that helps a bit.
Perfect, thank you If you do all the adjusting on the central adjuster not only do you not get even pull necessarily but also you don’t press the shoe into the drum in an even way as it’s hinging from the back and if the back is effectively too narrow only a small contact patch happens and you get a bad handbrake power.
Hope that helps a bit.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Friday 20th October 22:04
Fonzey said:
Thanks all for the comments and pointers.
I did back the adjuster wheel off a few clicks last time but maybe I didn't do enough, maybe the linkage is seized(?), so it needs another look.
I think my next plan if it ever stops raining is to:
1. Back adjuster right off, and make sure I take measurements or visually can confirm that it's actually retracted the shoes
2. If test-drive fails, I'll adjust it back and I'll swap the two rear wheels over to see if the noise moves.
3. If that still hasn't sorted it, and noise is still from the NSR, then I may look at taking that corner apart, driveshaft can stay in the box, but everything else can come off. Bit of a last resort as it's just recently had an alignment but I feel like I need to give the wheel bearing a completely unloaded spin by hand to see if it's grabbing or in any way uneven.
I’d start by swapping the wheels over and then only try messing with the handbrake if the issue persists. I did back the adjuster wheel off a few clicks last time but maybe I didn't do enough, maybe the linkage is seized(?), so it needs another look.
I think my next plan if it ever stops raining is to:
1. Back adjuster right off, and make sure I take measurements or visually can confirm that it's actually retracted the shoes
2. If test-drive fails, I'll adjust it back and I'll swap the two rear wheels over to see if the noise moves.
3. If that still hasn't sorted it, and noise is still from the NSR, then I may look at taking that corner apart, driveshaft can stay in the box, but everything else can come off. Bit of a last resort as it's just recently had an alignment but I feel like I need to give the wheel bearing a completely unloaded spin by hand to see if it's grabbing or in any way uneven.
Where you’re not sure how much contact on something is normal or not, just compare it to the other ‘no weird noise’ side if possible.
If I was a guessing man I’d say it’s a wheel bearing issue,
Between trackday prep on the 2-Eleven, the driveway dried out enough for me to have another look at the FF.
Though I would ordinarily agree that swapping wheels is quicker and easier than messing with the handbrake, with the FF it's not quite the case - as I'd need to move it to allow me to jack up both rear quarters at once, and that was far too much like hardwork - so NSR handbrake fettling it was.
One of the most satisfying feelings when tinkering on cars is finding a smoking gun to annoying problem you've got:
I was over the moon, so decided to rebuild the corner without any shoes so I could quickly test it and be sure of it. I took the shoes out, the adjuster, the springs and then poked the handbrake cable back through the hub and secured it out of the way.
One of the most infuriating feelings when tinkering on cars is finding out that your smoking gun was not your issue. Sure enough, the noise remains.
It may be my imagination, but the tone/severity of it seems a lot less. But it's there all the same. I'm now wondering if maybe both sides were making noise, and the NSR was just the most prevalent.
I need access to the garage for 2-Eleven business over the next few days so I'll hold of incapacitating the FF for now, but I think my new plan is to jack the full rear end up, and give the OSR corner a good inspection, see of the handbrake shoes are in a similar state - then I'll stick an order in to Ferrari for however many replacements I need, get the handbrakes all built back up and then try the wheel swap.
I'm quickly coming to realise that my patience for working on the 2-Eleven when it's up on the ramp in the garage for weeks or even months at a time does not extend to rolling around on the driveway sorting out the FF. If my immediate next steps don't get me any closer, I may just give up and hand it back to Ferrari for another look. What's annoying me, is that I've let myself get annoyed by what is ultimately a very minor sound and there's no going back now till' its fixed.
Though I would ordinarily agree that swapping wheels is quicker and easier than messing with the handbrake, with the FF it's not quite the case - as I'd need to move it to allow me to jack up both rear quarters at once, and that was far too much like hardwork - so NSR handbrake fettling it was.
One of the most satisfying feelings when tinkering on cars is finding a smoking gun to annoying problem you've got:
I was over the moon, so decided to rebuild the corner without any shoes so I could quickly test it and be sure of it. I took the shoes out, the adjuster, the springs and then poked the handbrake cable back through the hub and secured it out of the way.
One of the most infuriating feelings when tinkering on cars is finding out that your smoking gun was not your issue. Sure enough, the noise remains.
It may be my imagination, but the tone/severity of it seems a lot less. But it's there all the same. I'm now wondering if maybe both sides were making noise, and the NSR was just the most prevalent.
I need access to the garage for 2-Eleven business over the next few days so I'll hold of incapacitating the FF for now, but I think my new plan is to jack the full rear end up, and give the OSR corner a good inspection, see of the handbrake shoes are in a similar state - then I'll stick an order in to Ferrari for however many replacements I need, get the handbrakes all built back up and then try the wheel swap.
I'm quickly coming to realise that my patience for working on the 2-Eleven when it's up on the ramp in the garage for weeks or even months at a time does not extend to rolling around on the driveway sorting out the FF. If my immediate next steps don't get me any closer, I may just give up and hand it back to Ferrari for another look. What's annoying me, is that I've let myself get annoyed by what is ultimately a very minor sound and there's no going back now till' its fixed.
That is the curse of being a true car enthusiast - once you have heard the noise you will hear it EVERY SINGLE TIME, and all you can focus on IS THE NOISE!!!
I have been there and done that, with a Ferrari in fact. When i had my F430 there was a strange tapping noise, my wife could not hear and swore blind there was no noise.... I never gave up and in the end Ferrari had it for a half a day, got the chassis horns out and found that the noise coming from the front shocks - two new shocks and problem solved (under warranty i would like to add)
my other favourite is then the "strange vibration" once you feel it, you can feel NOTHING else. Had this on a 330D back in the day, after many many hours ended up being the replacement hub being off by a few degrees.
None of the above useful to you, apart from I FEEL THE PAIN!
I have been there and done that, with a Ferrari in fact. When i had my F430 there was a strange tapping noise, my wife could not hear and swore blind there was no noise.... I never gave up and in the end Ferrari had it for a half a day, got the chassis horns out and found that the noise coming from the front shocks - two new shocks and problem solved (under warranty i would like to add)
my other favourite is then the "strange vibration" once you feel it, you can feel NOTHING else. Had this on a 330D back in the day, after many many hours ended up being the replacement hub being off by a few degrees.
None of the above useful to you, apart from I FEEL THE PAIN!
I got some handbrake parts in time for the weekend so got to work on that. As somebody who has never serviced drum brakes before, this was quite the learning curve!
The FF Workshop manual is really good, one of the best I've used - but it understandably has a level of 'assumed knowledge' so you'll often read a one liner like "refit springs" and that's all you've got. After some considerable time swearing, giving up, un giving up, going for a walk up the road and back to chill out and finally doing it, to have to redo it all because I forgot a part - the brakes were back on the car.
However, despite the handbrake being 'off', the cable seemed to be fully contracted and the pads fully extended - so absolutely no hope of getting the disc back on. The adjuster knob was fully 'closed' but the issue was with the linkage actuated by the cable. I could tell it was fully pulled in.
I gave up for the night and ordered a curry.
The following morning it was back at it, and I removed the undertray from the car again. No small job, it has about 20 fixings and lots of rolling around on the floor. I'm spoilt in the garage with the Lotus on a lift most of the time.
I didn't snap a photo but my target was the central "equaliser" for the cable. The bit which allows the central cable to retract back from the electric motor and pull the two 'side cables' in towards the centre of the car. I could see that despite the brake being off, that the 'block' that slides left and right was slightly snagged in the middle. I pushed it manually towards the NSR and it slid easily enough.... but the linkage was still pulled in on the brake.
I later realised that I'd effectively built it back up and created a 'locked elbow' type scenario. Despite releasing tension on the cable, the springs between the shoes were pulling against a locked out elbow on the linkage. If I'd have poked the linkage gently in one way or the other, the elbow would have given, bent and we would have had a functional brake. This is why I had so much trouble refitting them, I was constantly working against the tension of the springs and linkage pushing the shoes outward!
The fix in the end was some gentle persuasion from a ratchet strap.
With barely any pressure pushing the shoes together, the linkage (elbow) popped and everything settled nicely into place.
Back under the car, I noticed that the equaliser section and the associated brackets were now flopping down. Good rattle candidates, but even once the shoes were adjusted back to correct position this slack remained. I did a bit of reading, then discovered the emergency release process in the boot.
Winding this handle clockwise was slackening the cable from the electric motor, and counter clockwise the reverse. I used this to tighten the central cable up a touch so that the slack was removed from the system without applying the brakes. I think this SHOULD be an electronic calibration process, so it may well reset the first time I drive the car - but it's something I can speak with Ferrari about.
With the undertray still laid on the drive, I took a good look at it. I knew from the previous removal that the plastic had broken in a couple of places which meant that not all the clips and fixings were in use.
(that's brake cleaner, not gearbox or engine oil!)
I had some time over the weekend, so attempted a fix.
Into the garage with an old fibreglass kit I had laying around:
Gave it a good clean in the repair areas, then got to work cutting some matting to fit.
The finished article 24hrs later:
It feels pretty strong. There's no reason for these trailing end fixings to be taking any real stress. They're just pinning the undertray to the diffuser. The heavy lifting and structural fixings are all inboard of the panel and involve M6 bolts and big washers to spread the load. I feel like these have broken because of poor handling of the undertray, if you remove all fixings from the front to the back - then the whole weight of the undertray would be on these, and is likely what caused it.
With the car buttoned back up the following morning, I also swapped the rear tyres over and went for a drive. I'd not done anything that I thought would fix the noise, remember I'd already ruled out the handbrake shoes by driving without them in the car at all. For the first 5 miles the noise was there, but almost silent. Could barely hear it above road noise when above 30mph which gave me real hope that maybe it WAS handbrake shoes (possibly from the OSR) and that my cable readjustment had lessened it off.
However, some miles later the noise returned back to it's previous levels.
Still, despite this I've not completely ruled out the handbrake. If the computer has readjusted the cable back to its previous point then it may have reintroduced the noise over a few miles - but it is now feeling like a long shot.
I was still in high spirits though, undertray repairs had gone well and it felt good to refit the undertray with ALL of its fixings. Gave the car a wash and called it a weekend.
Next steps are to go to Ferrari, on Wednesday this week. It needs a follow up check to inspect the cleaned up PTU oil from the annual service and we'll have a discussion about possibly renewing the Power15 warranty. Whilst its in, I WILL replicate the noise with a technician and see what they say.
The FF Workshop manual is really good, one of the best I've used - but it understandably has a level of 'assumed knowledge' so you'll often read a one liner like "refit springs" and that's all you've got. After some considerable time swearing, giving up, un giving up, going for a walk up the road and back to chill out and finally doing it, to have to redo it all because I forgot a part - the brakes were back on the car.
However, despite the handbrake being 'off', the cable seemed to be fully contracted and the pads fully extended - so absolutely no hope of getting the disc back on. The adjuster knob was fully 'closed' but the issue was with the linkage actuated by the cable. I could tell it was fully pulled in.
I gave up for the night and ordered a curry.
The following morning it was back at it, and I removed the undertray from the car again. No small job, it has about 20 fixings and lots of rolling around on the floor. I'm spoilt in the garage with the Lotus on a lift most of the time.
I didn't snap a photo but my target was the central "equaliser" for the cable. The bit which allows the central cable to retract back from the electric motor and pull the two 'side cables' in towards the centre of the car. I could see that despite the brake being off, that the 'block' that slides left and right was slightly snagged in the middle. I pushed it manually towards the NSR and it slid easily enough.... but the linkage was still pulled in on the brake.
I later realised that I'd effectively built it back up and created a 'locked elbow' type scenario. Despite releasing tension on the cable, the springs between the shoes were pulling against a locked out elbow on the linkage. If I'd have poked the linkage gently in one way or the other, the elbow would have given, bent and we would have had a functional brake. This is why I had so much trouble refitting them, I was constantly working against the tension of the springs and linkage pushing the shoes outward!
The fix in the end was some gentle persuasion from a ratchet strap.
With barely any pressure pushing the shoes together, the linkage (elbow) popped and everything settled nicely into place.
Back under the car, I noticed that the equaliser section and the associated brackets were now flopping down. Good rattle candidates, but even once the shoes were adjusted back to correct position this slack remained. I did a bit of reading, then discovered the emergency release process in the boot.
Winding this handle clockwise was slackening the cable from the electric motor, and counter clockwise the reverse. I used this to tighten the central cable up a touch so that the slack was removed from the system without applying the brakes. I think this SHOULD be an electronic calibration process, so it may well reset the first time I drive the car - but it's something I can speak with Ferrari about.
With the undertray still laid on the drive, I took a good look at it. I knew from the previous removal that the plastic had broken in a couple of places which meant that not all the clips and fixings were in use.
(that's brake cleaner, not gearbox or engine oil!)
I had some time over the weekend, so attempted a fix.
Into the garage with an old fibreglass kit I had laying around:
Gave it a good clean in the repair areas, then got to work cutting some matting to fit.
The finished article 24hrs later:
It feels pretty strong. There's no reason for these trailing end fixings to be taking any real stress. They're just pinning the undertray to the diffuser. The heavy lifting and structural fixings are all inboard of the panel and involve M6 bolts and big washers to spread the load. I feel like these have broken because of poor handling of the undertray, if you remove all fixings from the front to the back - then the whole weight of the undertray would be on these, and is likely what caused it.
With the car buttoned back up the following morning, I also swapped the rear tyres over and went for a drive. I'd not done anything that I thought would fix the noise, remember I'd already ruled out the handbrake shoes by driving without them in the car at all. For the first 5 miles the noise was there, but almost silent. Could barely hear it above road noise when above 30mph which gave me real hope that maybe it WAS handbrake shoes (possibly from the OSR) and that my cable readjustment had lessened it off.
However, some miles later the noise returned back to it's previous levels.
Still, despite this I've not completely ruled out the handbrake. If the computer has readjusted the cable back to its previous point then it may have reintroduced the noise over a few miles - but it is now feeling like a long shot.
I was still in high spirits though, undertray repairs had gone well and it felt good to refit the undertray with ALL of its fixings. Gave the car a wash and called it a weekend.
Next steps are to go to Ferrari, on Wednesday this week. It needs a follow up check to inspect the cleaned up PTU oil from the annual service and we'll have a discussion about possibly renewing the Power15 warranty. Whilst its in, I WILL replicate the noise with a technician and see what they say.
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