2013 Ferrari FF
Discussion
NRG1976 said:
You need someone to lie in the boot with a stethoscope to pin point exactly! Sounds crazy but I’ve known people who have done this!
I know Rolls Royce whilst still at Crewe used to take cars out for final testing with a man in the boot - frequently saw it, used to be let out in a layby a few makes up the road once he was happy that there were no untoward noises
Feirny said:
Morning Kyle, not sure if you’re aware of the ricambiamerica.com website with all the parts catalogues available.
May be of some use to you as I know you’re a bit of a geek like myself.
I am now May be of some use to you as I know you’re a bit of a geek like myself.
very useful ta. There are a few good Ferrari parts websites with searchable parts diagrams etc, it amazes me not more people are DIY'ing them. They make it pretty easy.Thanks for the other comments, I'm still not sure if I enjoy working on the FF yet. It's equal parts incredible engineering and shocking kitcar design
Dropped the FF off at JCT Ferrari today, as a follow up inspection from the PTU oil but also decided to pull the trigger on another year of the Power15 warranty. I was 50:50 on it right up until walking through the doors, at which point I just got giddy seeing the workshop and decided to go ahead.
Also took a tech out again to try and replicate my noise and once again, it was extremely hard to pick out. I think it's the wet roads that we always seem to have when I'm at the dealer, and it's very frustrating because I can't do it justice.
We could hear it, but it was very faint under the wet-road noise. He suggested it might just be normal diff noise in the V12s :/ I'm very much not convinced, and I think he'd suggest otherwise if he could hear it at its worst.
Still, he's going to get the car on the ramp and get it running so he can poke around with a stethoscope and see what comes out. Fingers crossed he finds something, I'll be pretty disheartened if this is just something I have to live with.
I never really knew how sensitive certain vehicles were to properly affixed (and not broken) undertrays and other fixings until I started selling used Porsche many moons ago. We had a 911 Turbo that was absolutely intolerable at motorway speeds with no obvious issues present. Transpired it was a knackered undertray missing some fixings and some ducting missing in the front air intakes that are used to channel air correctly. Fine in normal conditions, but practically undrivable at 70 plus. Replaced the plastic ducting and it was perfect.
Lovely car, always loved the FF. Had the pleasure of working at JCT Ferrari a long, long time ago! (at the older site) and used to love seeing these cars. I preferred them over the 458 at the time.
Lovely car, always loved the FF. Had the pleasure of working at JCT Ferrari a long, long time ago! (at the older site) and used to love seeing these cars. I preferred them over the 458 at the time.
Had a bitter sweet update from Leeds Ferrari today.
Despite being unable to clearly replicate my "noise", the workshop undertook a thorough investigation including spinning the drivetrain up with the car suspended. Eventually the NSR wheel bearing was identified as kaput.
Additionally, on a test drive the tech noted that the front end of the car felt particularly floaty, which was later identified as torn bushes on the front wishbones.
Preparing myself for a big number, the service manager then reported that all had been dealt with under the warranty! I thought the Power15 warranty was much more limited than this and was only drivetrain related stuff. Never in a thousand years I thought it covered suspension and wheel bearings.
So that's the sweet bit!
We then got onto other discoveries from the warranty renewal inspection and was told that my front brake discs were dead. Yes, these are the same discs subject to the bolt chapter of this story which makes that whole triumphant tale completely redundant.
Apparently weighing in at 98% worn and delaminating on the inside edge of both discs.
The bottom line is that new discs and pads on the front comes in at a staggering £7k. In fairness to Ferrari Leeds, I can't source the parts and fit myself for less, which sucks for thread content but makes the decision to just get it done a bit more straight forward.
At time of typing, I've not authorised the work but it's feeling like I should just get it done. I promised myself that this car would be handled appropriately and the that no shortcuts would be taken.*
This does beg some questions though.
Why were the bushes not identified when Ferrari had the car previously and did an alignment on it?
Why were brakes not looked at during service?
The independent specialist that originally helped me with bolt advice had my front discs in his hand and commented on some imperfections on the surface. Said something along the lines of keeping an eye on them, but be wary that a main dealer would expect me to change them.
I've been trying to convince myself that the light and quick "Ferrari front end" is something that I'm learning to love. Perhaps these bushes will explain why it was particularly alien to me after coming from other performance cars.
- buy some used discs and hope for the best
- look into Girodisc steels. Probably something I'd do if I intended to keep the car very long term and track it etc.
- look into aftermarket carbon ceramics from Surface Transforms or similar
On balance I'm pretty happy with the call. Paying £7k on brakes is just eye watering... Especially after doing that on my Lotus already this year but if you'd have offered me a £7k bill and rest covered under warranty when I was sat nervously traveling down to London on that train for collection day... I'd have bitten your hand off.
It also has added a LOT of value to what I perceived as a very limited Warranty before, which gives me confidence in longer term ownership.
Despite being unable to clearly replicate my "noise", the workshop undertook a thorough investigation including spinning the drivetrain up with the car suspended. Eventually the NSR wheel bearing was identified as kaput.
Additionally, on a test drive the tech noted that the front end of the car felt particularly floaty, which was later identified as torn bushes on the front wishbones.
Preparing myself for a big number, the service manager then reported that all had been dealt with under the warranty! I thought the Power15 warranty was much more limited than this and was only drivetrain related stuff. Never in a thousand years I thought it covered suspension and wheel bearings.
So that's the sweet bit!
We then got onto other discoveries from the warranty renewal inspection and was told that my front brake discs were dead. Yes, these are the same discs subject to the bolt chapter of this story which makes that whole triumphant tale completely redundant.
Apparently weighing in at 98% worn and delaminating on the inside edge of both discs.
The bottom line is that new discs and pads on the front comes in at a staggering £7k. In fairness to Ferrari Leeds, I can't source the parts and fit myself for less, which sucks for thread content but makes the decision to just get it done a bit more straight forward.
At time of typing, I've not authorised the work but it's feeling like I should just get it done. I promised myself that this car would be handled appropriately and the that no shortcuts would be taken.*
This does beg some questions though.
Why were the bushes not identified when Ferrari had the car previously and did an alignment on it?
Why were brakes not looked at during service?
The independent specialist that originally helped me with bolt advice had my front discs in his hand and commented on some imperfections on the surface. Said something along the lines of keeping an eye on them, but be wary that a main dealer would expect me to change them.
I've been trying to convince myself that the light and quick "Ferrari front end" is something that I'm learning to love. Perhaps these bushes will explain why it was particularly alien to me after coming from other performance cars.
- The only shortcuts I can think of are:
- buy some used discs and hope for the best
- look into Girodisc steels. Probably something I'd do if I intended to keep the car very long term and track it etc.
- look into aftermarket carbon ceramics from Surface Transforms or similar
On balance I'm pretty happy with the call. Paying £7k on brakes is just eye watering... Especially after doing that on my Lotus already this year
but if you'd have offered me a £7k bill and rest covered under warranty when I was sat nervously traveling down to London on that train for collection day... I'd have bitten your hand off.It also has added a LOT of value to what I perceived as a very limited Warranty before, which gives me confidence in longer term ownership.
Given the cost, a second or even third opinion on the discs doesn’t sound like a bad idea?
Assuming they are in fact almost 100% worn, how long have they lasted, and how long are they advertised to last?
Same goes for exploring a steelies option, but presumably there’s a good chance that won’t end up being straightforward!
Assuming they are in fact almost 100% worn, how long have they lasted, and how long are they advertised to last?
Same goes for exploring a steelies option, but presumably there’s a good chance that won’t end up being straightforward!
hermes said:
Given the cost, a second or even third opinion on the discs doesn’t sound like a bad idea?
Assuming they are in fact almost 100% worn, how long have they lasted, and how long are they advertised to last?
Same goes for exploring a steelies option, but presumably there’s a good chance that won’t end up being straightforward!
A second opinion probably wise yes, but if what they say is correct and that the material is visually delaminating away from itself then it's only really going to go one way.Assuming they are in fact almost 100% worn, how long have they lasted, and how long are they advertised to last?
Same goes for exploring a steelies option, but presumably there’s a good chance that won’t end up being straightforward!
Carbon Ceramics aren't supposed to 'wear' as such, in that their thickness should never really change. What happens though is that the composite starts degrading, I don't know the science - but if mistreated at all then the resin can begin to fail. This is measured by weighing them and even checking density with expensive gadgets, and presumably only main dealers have this sort of equipment readily available.
If looked after, with no mishandling or mishaps then there's no reason why the disc material couldn't last 100k+, and assuming these are originals - then they've just done 40. What I believe has happened, is that something in life has caused them to delaminate and this will be tipping the scales for the wear rate into the 98% category.
Techno9000 said:
Absolutely yes, these guys have been on my radar since bolt-gate. The way I'm feeling at the moment, I'd have Ferrari change my discs and ask to keep the originals - and send them off to rebrake out of interest. Worst case, they're non serviceable or they're very expensive to fix and it's cost me some postage, best case they can restore them for a cheap cheap price - then I either have some spares, or some as-new discs to sell on to try and recoup some cash.I need to have a proper chat with Ferrari tomorrow to see whether my warranty can be extended if I leave the discs as is, if only for a short term investigation period.
I'm already talking myself into just paying the money though, and donating my discs/bolts to science.
Normally ceramics have wear markers on them, I posted some guidance on the bmw m5 thread recently. To be honest it sounds like it’s not even borderline if they are saying 98% worn.
Gibbo on here swapped ceramics for steels on his 458, he may still have the ceramics (not sure if they are the same size), he may be able to share experience at least.
Was the noise the wheel bearing?
Gibbo on here swapped ceramics for steels on his 458, he may still have the ceramics (not sure if they are the same size), he may be able to share experience at least.
Was the noise the wheel bearing?
NRG1976 said:
Was the noise the wheel bearing?
I hope so, as do Ferrari - but since I wasn't able to convincingly demonstrate it I really won't know until I collect the car.Sounds daft because it's unrelated, but if I payed to get all the brakes sorted, extended the warranty for another year, etc - then found the noise is still there on collection day, I'll be absolutely gutted.
I feel like I want to test the car first on its dead brakes just to feel better about that!
Fonzey said:
The independent specialist that originally helped me with bolt advice had my front discs in his hand and commented on some imperfections on the surface. Said something along the lines of keeping an eye on them, but be wary that a main dealer would expect me to change them.
His crystal ball is fairly clear then! I'd be more inclined to think Ferrari are just doing main dealer type stuff (nothing nefarious), see problem, advise replace.I don't see how they can refuse you anything if they're "98%" worn-they still have 2% of life left if that's even correct.
I personally wouldn't accept any main dealers word on how worn a component is if it means them selling you replacement items.
Fonzey said:
NRG1976 said:
Was the noise the wheel bearing?
I hope so, as do Ferrari - but since I wasn't able to convincingly demonstrate it I really won't know until I collect the car.Sounds daft because it's unrelated, but if I payed to get all the brakes sorted, extended the warranty for another year, etc - then found the noise is still there on collection day, I'll be absolutely gutted.
I feel like I want to test the car first on its dead brakes just to feel better about that!
NRG1976 said:
Hopefully it is that, earlier on the thread my instinct suggested wheel bearing but it can be so hard to pinpoint.
Yeah I'd "ruled out" the obvious wheel bearing traits. The wheel had no play when the car was jacked up, and the noise didn't seem to get better or worse with lateral load applied - but ultimately it was never truly off the list of possibilities!Great updates, glad to hear of an expensive warranty like that actually doing its job! Shame about the discs though!
On the subject of the carbon ceramics. A few years ago I was in a similar position, I had bought a brand new M4 back when they came out in 2014 with ceramic brakes. In one year and five or so track days I completely burnt out the front discs, and had a bill from BMW to replace them to the tune of £12,000.
Of course that prompted me to do a deep dive into ceramic brake research to figure out options. What I found out was prolonged heat is the big enemy of ceramic brake discs. as you mentioned, they don’t wear down on the outside but rather burn up on the inside, becoming lighter as they wear. On the road under normal driving they will last forever, but on track or even hard road driving when they are going through prolonged sessions of constant heat they burn out and “wear” very fast. I would imagine on a heavy car like the FF even fast road driving would put a lot of strain those brakes. Even a new pair of discs might not last that long unless the car is just pootling around town. which I doubt this one will be!
My stance on ceramic brakes after that experience was firmly “never again”. But if I was in your position and planning on keeping the car a while, I would probably be looking at having the current discs refurbished if possible (the BMW discs couldn’t be refurbished, but I’m pretty sure Ferrari ones can?) or as a very last resort steel replacement discs.
The thing is with the car being fairly “not light” and being driven hard/occasionally on track, you could end up paying £7000 for new discs and going through them in a year. But that’s just based on my limited experience with ceramic brakes! The Ferrari ones might be more resilient!
On the subject of the carbon ceramics. A few years ago I was in a similar position, I had bought a brand new M4 back when they came out in 2014 with ceramic brakes. In one year and five or so track days I completely burnt out the front discs, and had a bill from BMW to replace them to the tune of £12,000.
Of course that prompted me to do a deep dive into ceramic brake research to figure out options. What I found out was prolonged heat is the big enemy of ceramic brake discs. as you mentioned, they don’t wear down on the outside but rather burn up on the inside, becoming lighter as they wear. On the road under normal driving they will last forever, but on track or even hard road driving when they are going through prolonged sessions of constant heat they burn out and “wear” very fast. I would imagine on a heavy car like the FF even fast road driving would put a lot of strain those brakes. Even a new pair of discs might not last that long unless the car is just pootling around town. which I doubt this one will be!
My stance on ceramic brakes after that experience was firmly “never again”. But if I was in your position and planning on keeping the car a while, I would probably be looking at having the current discs refurbished if possible (the BMW discs couldn’t be refurbished, but I’m pretty sure Ferrari ones can?) or as a very last resort steel replacement discs.
The thing is with the car being fairly “not light” and being driven hard/occasionally on track, you could end up paying £7000 for new discs and going through them in a year. But that’s just based on my limited experience with ceramic brakes! The Ferrari ones might be more resilient!
I'd suspect dealer shenanigans here. My FF discs were less than 5% worn at 30K miles. My Cayenne ceramics were <10% at 100k miles, and still going strong at 140k miles.
All the dealers did was weigh them. I've heard about the density measurement on the web, but never had it done on a service or had any specific results, so not sure what basis in fact there is for UK servicing.
Only caveat I guess is if there's chunks of the surface missing.
Owen's (Macari) did show me a set of cooked 458 ceramics. Large chunks missing. Damaged by overheating on a track apparently, as when overheated the carbon part of the compound turns gaseous and evaporates leaving the ceramic material to disintegrate. These has very little of the smooth surface remaining and were basically just the rough substrate left.
All the dealers did was weigh them. I've heard about the density measurement on the web, but never had it done on a service or had any specific results, so not sure what basis in fact there is for UK servicing.
Only caveat I guess is if there's chunks of the surface missing.
Owen's (Macari) did show me a set of cooked 458 ceramics. Large chunks missing. Damaged by overheating on a track apparently, as when overheated the carbon part of the compound turns gaseous and evaporates leaving the ceramic material to disintegrate. These has very little of the smooth surface remaining and were basically just the rough substrate left.
Court_S said:
Good news on the warranty, less so on the discs….that’s a chunk of cash for sure.
Have you decided if you’re going to get a second or this opinion?
Yes, as of this morning I've authorised the replacements. But I have talked to a few people outside of the dealer network to check I'm not getting the wool pulled over.Have you decided if you’re going to get a second or this opinion?
MTW said:
Loads of useful stuff
Good info. I agree on the conclusion that sustained use (track) is the most likely culprit and adds to my opinion that CC's are simply not fit for purpose and are a silly, silly trinket to have on a spec sheet and nothing more. Given the choice, I don't think I would ever spec a supercar with ceramic brakes going forward, as I'd very much like to use it on track!As for this particular car, I really don't believe it has seen any track work... though I can never rule it out. The previous owner had no real reason to lie about it, as I have every intention of taking this car on track myself and I would not be ashamed of it. These cars are also pretty rare, and I'm sure I'd have seen a picture or video of it by now had it been sliding round Anglesey or whatever. Other theories I can think of are that this car had an issue in the past with the previously discussed rusty bolts, and perhaps a second hand pair were fitted as a cost saving exercise. Who knows the history on those.
In any case, I've already emotionally moved on. I don't want to sound like a casual £7k bill is not a big deal for me, but ultimately I entered Ferrari ownership expecting some pretty big invoices along the way. The way I look at it, I've had 3-4k worth of unexpected fixes via the warranty, I'll have one of the biggest scare-factors dealt with on the car (rears confirmed at barely 30% worn), have a new found faith and confidence in the warranty - and I'm really just excited to get the car back now. If the noise is fixed, I'll just view it as £7k well spent, and get on with life.
catfood12 said:
Only caveat I guess is if there's chunks of the surface missing.
Unfortunately this. I've seen them, and there are indeed chunks (albeit small) missing. It sounds like this is the beginning of the end for the discs, whether I replace them now or just keep my eyes on them... eventually it needs doing, and the failure mode for carbon ceramics is not worth thinking about.Sounds like the sensible approach! Regarding keeping an eye on them. Do you have pictures of the chunks missing? Are they on the edges of the disc?
Another part of my story (before I burnt out the discs myself) I took the car in for its post running in service three weeks into ownership, and the dealer tried to put a new set of discs into me because of a small chip in the edge of one of the discs. I later found out there is actually an allowance for chips before replacement needed, as long as it’s on the edge of the disc and depending on the size, I think 3mm was the allowable depth. That’s the other headache I found, you are at the mercy of any mechanic or tyre fitter who is taking the wheel off, mine were chipped badly by a mechanic taking the wheel off and nicking the edge of the disc with the barrel.
If it’s chunks out of the main area of the disc face on the other hand, that’s a write off. The only time I have seen that is pictures on Ferrari forums of ceramic discs that have been hammered on track.
Another part of my story (before I burnt out the discs myself) I took the car in for its post running in service three weeks into ownership, and the dealer tried to put a new set of discs into me because of a small chip in the edge of one of the discs. I later found out there is actually an allowance for chips before replacement needed, as long as it’s on the edge of the disc and depending on the size, I think 3mm was the allowable depth. That’s the other headache I found, you are at the mercy of any mechanic or tyre fitter who is taking the wheel off, mine were chipped badly by a mechanic taking the wheel off and nicking the edge of the disc with the barrel.
If it’s chunks out of the main area of the disc face on the other hand, that’s a write off. The only time I have seen that is pictures on Ferrari forums of ceramic discs that have been hammered on track.
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