Finally pictures of our Twin v6 205 - Only on Piston heads
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
r11co said:
I don't know why people are thinking two engines in one vehicle can't work. Think of aircraft!!!
Plus it's been done before many times with cars. I've seen a twin-engined (original) Mini, plus a MkII Golf with VR6 engines front and back.
Im not saying it can't work. I'm asking how?????Plus it's been done before many times with cars. I've seen a twin-engined (original) Mini, plus a MkII Golf with VR6 engines front and back.
And an aircraft bears no simarity.
http://www.durocco.com/media.html
Awesome project!
300bhp/ton said:
Im not saying it can't work. I'm asking how?????
PRD Motorsport said:
The engines are only connected together via shifter cables, clutch and throttle cables
Nothing (!) more to it than that. An engine in the front, an engine in the back. Both engines originally sourced from front wheel drive cars (presumably), each with their own gearbox. Each totally independent of the other, apart from the gear shifter, clutch and throttle, as mentioned. Same as the original Twini (sp?), Mercedes did it with the A Class too. No driveline connection between the two engines.
Make sense?
that's the last thing this thread has.Super Slo Mo said:
300bhp/ton said:
Im not saying it can't work. I'm asking how?????
PRD Motorsport said:
The engines are only connected together via shifter cables, clutch and throttle cables
Nothing (!) more to it than that. An engine in the front, an engine in the back. Both engines originally sourced from front wheel drive cars (presumably), each with their own gearbox. Each totally independent of the other, apart from the gear shifter, clutch and throttle, as mentioned. Same as the original Twini (sp?), Mercedes did it with the A Class too. No driveline connection between the two engines.
Make sense?
Would be interesting to know what it goes like, especially in a slide. I assume it must be quite different to a regular AWD system in terms of feel and response?
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 30th March 13:05
300bhp/ton said:
Cheers.
Would be interesting to know what it goes like, especially in a slide. I assume it must be quite different to a regular AWD system in terms of feel and response?
That would certainly be interesting. Not sure how it would handle that kind of scenario, whether the wheels that lost traction would suddenly spin up due to less resistance (assuming a power-on slide). Could make for an exciting drive!Would be interesting to know what it goes like, especially in a slide. I assume it must be quite different to a regular AWD system in terms of feel and response?
OP, I'm guessing that both engines use independent ECU's that don't cross reference each other somehow?
Edited by Super Slo Mo on Tuesday 30th March 13:38
Top work!! 
Would be perhaps interesting to have a split accelerator pedal.
So depending on the balance of your foot give slightly more power to one engine, but when you floor it they both come on full!
Would perhaps help get round corners, much like a haldex system but control by your foot.
Would also help control some impressive powerslides!
So depending on the balance of your foot give slightly more power to one engine, but when you floor it they both come on full!
Would perhaps help get round corners, much like a haldex system but control by your foot.
Would also help control some impressive powerslides!
I looked into doing something similar to this a while ago. What put me off was the behaviour of the car in the corners.
In a corner, the front will understeer quite heavily, and will never reach the grip limit that a mid/rear engined car is capable as the front will start understeering and sliding long before the rear does.
The solution I pondered was to have a fly by wire throttle on the front engine connected to a Gyro that detected cornering force. This would be complicated and expensive ( although now there is a cheap gyro in the form of a Iphone...maybe this would be cheaper )
Antoher solution would be a traction control unit that detects front wheels spinning and cuts power to the front engine. This tends to be quite "ugly" with the spark completely cut and could then cause sudden oversteer as the front engine will have engine braking and the rear will still be powered.
In a corner, the front will understeer quite heavily, and will never reach the grip limit that a mid/rear engined car is capable as the front will start understeering and sliding long before the rear does.
The solution I pondered was to have a fly by wire throttle on the front engine connected to a Gyro that detected cornering force. This would be complicated and expensive ( although now there is a cheap gyro in the form of a Iphone...maybe this would be cheaper )
Antoher solution would be a traction control unit that detects front wheels spinning and cuts power to the front engine. This tends to be quite "ugly" with the spark completely cut and could then cause sudden oversteer as the front engine will have engine braking and the rear will still be powered.
Thanks for all the kind comments so far fella’s, though I do feel some people are missing the point or making it more complicated than it really is.
Firstly the engines do not fight against each other in any which way or form, but help each other, of course no engine is identical to each other, so forces will move back and fourth depending on how each engine is tuned and which becomes the master at that given rpm. For the strip I have set the cam timing for the rear engine to provide all the low down torque needed to launch, whilst the front engine will set to be slightly flat low down for reduced wheel spin but with massive top end power.
As for track days….. Well firstly I feel people are taking it far too seriously! Track days are for fun! And that’s exactly what my car has been built for, though its original purpose was for Santa pod hence the two engines, although after some thinking I also built it to be easily changed to mid engine rwd at track days by simply removing the engine in the front and replacing it with the fuel tank from the back while on my dinner hour, I must admit I also take track days a bit too serious too though that’s my job. I’m sure WEREWOLF can comment on this.
As for a twin engined 205 not handling, I would like to point out there are heavier less powerful similar sized cars that handle very well. I can’t comment on what the weight distribution will be exactly, however I have tried to get as close to 50/50 as possible, I feel its more like 60/40. Weight again I estimate to be around 1200 to 1350 kgs. Unlike the other twin engined cars, the es9j4 are all alloy engines bar the liners, which is slightly heavier than an 8v turbo but lighter than the T16 engine, every part of the car is adjustable which I will have to list below
1. Caster, camber, toe, bump steer, Ackermann angle, ride height, full damper control and spring rate
2. Engine state of tune (as above)
3. Clutch biting point
4. Brake balance
5. Front splitter, rear diffuser and rear wing (yet to build)
6. Rear sub frame (height and pitch)
7. Rear engine can move side to side and tilted for ease of counter weighting
8. Each throttle cable works on an adjustable cam design to give either engines the ability to become master or slave
9. Selection of roll bars to try out.
10. tyre width and type
With all of above there is more than enough adjustment to improve handling for either single or twin engined setup.
Firstly the engines do not fight against each other in any which way or form, but help each other, of course no engine is identical to each other, so forces will move back and fourth depending on how each engine is tuned and which becomes the master at that given rpm. For the strip I have set the cam timing for the rear engine to provide all the low down torque needed to launch, whilst the front engine will set to be slightly flat low down for reduced wheel spin but with massive top end power.
As for track days….. Well firstly I feel people are taking it far too seriously! Track days are for fun! And that’s exactly what my car has been built for, though its original purpose was for Santa pod hence the two engines, although after some thinking I also built it to be easily changed to mid engine rwd at track days by simply removing the engine in the front and replacing it with the fuel tank from the back while on my dinner hour, I must admit I also take track days a bit too serious too though that’s my job. I’m sure WEREWOLF can comment on this.
As for a twin engined 205 not handling, I would like to point out there are heavier less powerful similar sized cars that handle very well. I can’t comment on what the weight distribution will be exactly, however I have tried to get as close to 50/50 as possible, I feel its more like 60/40. Weight again I estimate to be around 1200 to 1350 kgs. Unlike the other twin engined cars, the es9j4 are all alloy engines bar the liners, which is slightly heavier than an 8v turbo but lighter than the T16 engine, every part of the car is adjustable which I will have to list below
1. Caster, camber, toe, bump steer, Ackermann angle, ride height, full damper control and spring rate
2. Engine state of tune (as above)
3. Clutch biting point
4. Brake balance
5. Front splitter, rear diffuser and rear wing (yet to build)
6. Rear sub frame (height and pitch)
7. Rear engine can move side to side and tilted for ease of counter weighting
8. Each throttle cable works on an adjustable cam design to give either engines the ability to become master or slave
9. Selection of roll bars to try out.
10. tyre width and type
With all of above there is more than enough adjustment to improve handling for either single or twin engined setup.
fareplay for doing all this work for your enjoyment think most of the comments about cornering issues is the engine at the front looks as thou it sits in front of the axle line,
where as the oringinal design has the engine on an angle to bring the weight more in line with the front wheels, pugs are well known for their cornering handling just be interesting to see if this has been affected if you choose to use both engines.
Just to add if you choose to remove the front engine make sure you keep the ends of the drive shafts in the wheel bearing/hub flange if these are removed and you drive the car with the shafts removed cornering forces can make the wheel bearing seperate then there's a chance your wheel could fly off as the drive shaft helps hold the bearing together.
where as the oringinal design has the engine on an angle to bring the weight more in line with the front wheels, pugs are well known for their cornering handling just be interesting to see if this has been affected if you choose to use both engines.
Just to add if you choose to remove the front engine make sure you keep the ends of the drive shafts in the wheel bearing/hub flange if these are removed and you drive the car with the shafts removed cornering forces can make the wheel bearing seperate then there's a chance your wheel could fly off as the drive shaft helps hold the bearing together.
I'm still feeling a little dense...What heppens if the speed of each engine falls out of synch? So lets say you give it a decent start and the rear end grips and bogs the engine while the front end arks up with wheelspin, wouldnt you end up with one engine running at a higher engine speed and trying to drag the other engine up to speed?
Or what about if your cornering and again due to wheelspin one engine picks up revs and the other does not?
Or what about if your cornering and again due to wheelspin one engine picks up revs and the other does not?
No Guts No Glory said:
Thanks for all the kind comments so far fella’s, though I do feel some people are missing the point or making it more complicated than it really is.
Firstly the engines do not fight against each other in any which way or form, but help each other, of course no engine is identical to each other, so forces will move back and fourth depending on how each engine is tuned and which becomes the master at that given rpm. For the strip I have set the cam timing for the rear engine to provide all the low down torque needed to launch, whilst the front engine will set to be slightly flat low down for reduced wheel spin but with massive top end power.
As for track days….. Well firstly I feel people are taking it far too seriously! Track days are for fun! And that’s exactly what my car has been built for, though its original purpose was for Santa pod hence the two engines, although after some thinking I also built it to be easily changed to mid engine rwd at track days by simply removing the engine in the front and replacing it with the fuel tank from the back while on my dinner hour, I must admit I also take track days a bit too serious too though that’s my job. I’m sure WEREWOLF can comment on this.
As for a twin engined 205 not handling, I would like to point out there are heavier less powerful similar sized cars that handle very well. I can’t comment on what the weight distribution will be exactly, however I have tried to get as close to 50/50 as possible, I feel its more like 60/40. Weight again I estimate to be around 1200 to 1350 kgs. Unlike the other twin engined cars, the es9j4 are all alloy engines bar the liners, which is slightly heavier than an 8v turbo but lighter than the T16 engine, every part of the car is adjustable which I will have to list below
1. Caster, camber, toe, bump steer, Ackermann angle, ride height, full damper control and spring rate
2. Engine state of tune (as above)
3. Clutch biting point
4. Brake balance
5. Front splitter, rear diffuser and rear wing (yet to build)
6. Rear sub frame (height and pitch)
7. Rear engine can move side to side and tilted for ease of counter weighting
8. Each throttle cable works on an adjustable cam design to give either engines the ability to become master or slave
9. Selection of roll bars to try out.
10. tyre width and type
With all of above there is more than enough adjustment to improve handling for either single or twin engined setup.
Very cool.Firstly the engines do not fight against each other in any which way or form, but help each other, of course no engine is identical to each other, so forces will move back and fourth depending on how each engine is tuned and which becomes the master at that given rpm. For the strip I have set the cam timing for the rear engine to provide all the low down torque needed to launch, whilst the front engine will set to be slightly flat low down for reduced wheel spin but with massive top end power.
As for track days….. Well firstly I feel people are taking it far too seriously! Track days are for fun! And that’s exactly what my car has been built for, though its original purpose was for Santa pod hence the two engines, although after some thinking I also built it to be easily changed to mid engine rwd at track days by simply removing the engine in the front and replacing it with the fuel tank from the back while on my dinner hour, I must admit I also take track days a bit too serious too though that’s my job. I’m sure WEREWOLF can comment on this.
As for a twin engined 205 not handling, I would like to point out there are heavier less powerful similar sized cars that handle very well. I can’t comment on what the weight distribution will be exactly, however I have tried to get as close to 50/50 as possible, I feel its more like 60/40. Weight again I estimate to be around 1200 to 1350 kgs. Unlike the other twin engined cars, the es9j4 are all alloy engines bar the liners, which is slightly heavier than an 8v turbo but lighter than the T16 engine, every part of the car is adjustable which I will have to list below
1. Caster, camber, toe, bump steer, Ackermann angle, ride height, full damper control and spring rate
2. Engine state of tune (as above)
3. Clutch biting point
4. Brake balance
5. Front splitter, rear diffuser and rear wing (yet to build)
6. Rear sub frame (height and pitch)
7. Rear engine can move side to side and tilted for ease of counter weighting
8. Each throttle cable works on an adjustable cam design to give either engines the ability to become master or slave
9. Selection of roll bars to try out.
10. tyre width and type
With all of above there is more than enough adjustment to improve handling for either single or twin engined setup.
Sorry didn't mean to come across bad, was just more curious on how it all worked and what it was like behind the wheel. On a very different scale I've ran twin motored RC vehicles in the past, so I know it does work.
What sort of ET's and traps did it run at Santa Pod?
deviant said:
I'm still feeling a little dense...What heppens if the speed of each engine falls out of synch? So lets say you give it a decent start and the rear end grips and bogs the engine while the front end arks up with wheelspin, wouldnt you end up with one engine running at a higher engine speed and trying to drag the other engine up to speed?
Or what about if your cornering and again due to wheelspin one engine picks up revs and the other does not?
Our DMU trains work in exactly the same way:Or what about if your cornering and again due to wheelspin one engine picks up revs and the other does not?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit
We can have 2,4,6 or 8 sets couple together, each with their own engine and transmission. It doesn't matter if any engine(s) are down on power or even switched off - the others will help the train along.
The only way one engine would be pulling much higher revs than the other would be if there was a load of wheelspin on that axle.
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