Finally pictures of our Twin v6 205 - Only on Piston heads
Discussion
PRD Motorsport said:
The engines are only connected together via shifter cables, clutch and throttle cables, all are fully adjustable including rate, balance and ramp angle. Two engines running in one car, simply creates double the torque and bhp at ANY given rpm scale. They simply work along side each other, regardless of their power differences. A simpler way to understand is imagining one person pushing a car then someone else helping out with out going into to much detail with extra weight, and how state of tune can develop different handling and balance characteristics
I get the basic idea but how do you compensate for the two slightly different speeds the two sets of drive wheels run at? Using your analogy, if one person is pushing at a certain rate and then a second person pushes at a slightly slower rate, then eventually the second person will start falling behind and either have to run to catch up, or get dragged behind the car.Do the diffs allow for this slight speed differential? That is assuming you'll never get the two engines providing identical road speed to the two sets of driven wheels, if they are not mechanically connected.
Love it BTW....totally bonkers
benny.c said:
I get the basic idea but how do you compensate for the two slightly different speeds the two sets of drive wheels run at? Using your analogy, if one person is pushing at a certain rate and then a second person pushes at a slightly slower rate, then eventually the second person will start falling behind and either have to run to catch up, or get dragged behind the car.
Do the diffs allow for this slight speed differential? That is assuming you'll never get the two engines providing identical road speed to the two sets of driven wheels, if they are not mechanically connected.
Love it BTW....totally bonkers
They are mechanically connected, by the road! All it would mean is that one engine will have a slightly easier time of it than the other, so will have slightly less work to do, so will find it easier to spin at the required speed. As the OP says, any additional input from one engine will simply contribute to the forwards motion. Assuming no wheelspin, both engines have to spin at the same speed. One might get slightly 'dragged' or 'pushed' by the other, but it'll still be contributing significantly to the forward motion.Do the diffs allow for this slight speed differential? That is assuming you'll never get the two engines providing identical road speed to the two sets of driven wheels, if they are not mechanically connected.
Love it BTW....totally bonkers
It's an awesome project, good stuff!
skid-mark said:
fareplay for doing all this work for your enjoyment think most of the comments about cornering issues is the engine at the front looks as thou it sits in front of the axle line,
where as the oringinal design has the engine on an angle to bring the weight more in line with the front wheels, pugs are well known for their cornering handling just be interesting to see if this has been affected if you choose to use both engines.
Just to add if you choose to remove the front engine make sure you keep the ends of the drive shafts in the wheel bearing/hub flange if these are removed and you drive the car with the shafts removed cornering forces can make the wheel bearing seperate then there's a chance your wheel could fly off as the drive shaft helps hold the bearing together.
Yes you are right about the position of the engine in relation of the original setup, cornering will be affected due to extra weight in the nose, similar concern with the Audi Quattro back in the day though still seen today. However this could also be seen as an advantage too with increased force bearing on the front tyres and reduced lift on launch, though for corners it reduces turn in response which I have tried to compensate with modifying the sub frame and wishbones to bring them further forward, which increase dynamic caster. Also the front track is four inches wider than standard too. IL ignore the driveshaft comment lol,where as the oringinal design has the engine on an angle to bring the weight more in line with the front wheels, pugs are well known for their cornering handling just be interesting to see if this has been affected if you choose to use both engines.
Just to add if you choose to remove the front engine make sure you keep the ends of the drive shafts in the wheel bearing/hub flange if these are removed and you drive the car with the shafts removed cornering forces can make the wheel bearing seperate then there's a chance your wheel could fly off as the drive shaft helps hold the bearing together.
deviant said:
I'm still feeling a little dense...What heppens if the speed of each engine falls out of synch? So lets say you give it a decent start and the rear end grips and bogs the engine while the front end arks up with wheelspin, wouldnt you end up with one engine running at a higher engine speed and trying to drag the other engine up to speed?
Or what about if your cornering and again due to wheel spin one engine picks up revs and the other does not?
The engines are governed by the road, the same law as all other cars, if one looses grip it will simply resume until it matches the road speed which will be the same as the other engine, and again, for cornering it depends which engine loses grip, the front will understeer and the back will oversteer, but again depends on how trained your right foot is lolOr what about if your cornering and again due to wheel spin one engine picks up revs and the other does not?
300bhp/ton said:
Very cool.
Sorry didn't mean to come across bad, was just more curious on how it all worked and what it was like behind the wheel. On a very different scale I've ran twin motored RC vehicles in the past, so I know it does work.
What sort of ET's and traps did it run at Santa Pod?
you didn’t come across bad lol, as for your nitro rc car I had to laugh, because I did a similar thing with Lego when I was knee high to a grass hopper, I loved tractor pulling after watching a old video called battle of the monster trucks and went about building a tractor with 4 Lego Technic motors and with a simple worm drive to move the payload on the sledge, they were the days, anyhow, the project still isn’t finished but once finished I’m looking for around 11.5 qtr at first then under ten next year after some track day laughs, the car before the project started did 13.9 qtr on std tyres and diff @210bhp and 850kgs, which upset a very proud owner of his long awaited imported Scooby, which I like to call Scooby snacks, Scooby Doo where are you?, of course it must of been the fault of the driver lolSorry didn't mean to come across bad, was just more curious on how it all worked and what it was like behind the wheel. On a very different scale I've ran twin motored RC vehicles in the past, so I know it does work.
What sort of ET's and traps did it run at Santa Pod?
[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v728/tomoprd/?action=view¤t=santapod139.flv]
[/URL]Here are a couple of pictures before
Some interesting pictures here
http://forum.205gti.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4...
only mentioned about the drive shafts as i've seen this happen to kit cars using front hub uprights off a front wheel drive car, with no front shafts in then there is nothing helping hold in the hub flange(the bit that the wheel bolts to) in the bearing as its only lightly pressed in, this is why the big nut on the end of the shaft is supposed to be tourqed up to req tightness to set correct load on the bearing cause the shaft and the flange sandwhich the bearing together thou i'm sure you know all this if you've managed to build this monster, 
Adz The Rat said:
f
k me! That thing is wicked.This reminds me of Dubsports (I think?) twin turbo twin VR6 Mk3 Golf. Mmmm, 0-60 in about 2.8 seconds and ~700bhp. Oddly, that was running a 2.9 VR at the front and a 2.8 at the rear, with (from memory) 360bhp from the front engine and 340 from the rear.
-EDIT-
http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/p/69446/507010.aspx
Awesome 205, twin engined madness is the epitome of cool.
-EDIT-
http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/p/69446/507010.aspx
Awesome 205, twin engined madness is the epitome of cool.
Edited by ManOpener on Thursday 24th June 19:47
Now, if that was mine, i'd be sticking on a electronic throttle on each engine, and a steering angle sensor and Yaw sensor, then map the engines for dynamic torque control, hoof the back out on the rear engine and then bring in the front one to hold the slide. active torque dynamics - sweet! lol!
Garlick said:
420 said:
so annoying reading through here and seeing all this "can't be done mate can't be done" men of the trade st, everywhere you go there is always a "man of the world" that knows it all appriciate it or go home. ffs.
Eh?t, everywhere you go there is always a "man of the world" that knows it all appriciate it or go home. ffs.Most people were simply asking 'how', because the conversion raises a lot of questions that aren't necessarily obvious upon first thought.
That's not to say that the OP's sanity isn't questionable
, but there's nothing wrong with that when it comes to making project cars that are a bit, well, barking. I have no doubt that it's very well engineered, and a very, erm, exciting drive.
Max_Torque said:
Now, if that was mine, i'd be sticking on a electronic throttle on each engine, and a steering angle sensor and Yaw sensor, then map the engines for dynamic torque control, hoof the back out on the rear engine and then bring in the front one to hold the slide. active torque dynamics - sweet! lol!
Nah, too complicated. He just needs two accelerator pedals 
And to learn to 'fiddle' throttle with both left and right feet
pmcuksnapper said:
Nikko 40691 said:
Any videos of this?
+1 420 said:
so annoying reading through here and seeing all this "can't be done mate can't be done" men of the trade st, everywhere you go there is always a "man of the world" that knows it all appriciate it or go home. ffs.
Anything’s possible, it's only bound by someone's imagination… t, everywhere you go there is always a "man of the world" that knows it all appriciate it or go home. ffs.oh and if there’s a will then there’s a way
doogz said:
Do either or both of the gearboxes have LSD's fitted?
Top notch, fabrication looks excellent.
Setting up the geometry will be fun, it's gonna take a while to get everything dialed in just right though!
No LSD in either box at the moment, due to budget. However it is a future mod as well as electronic centre diff, each ecu sharing rpm scales, any wheel spin the correspondent ecu uses soft cut rev limiter to stop wheel spin.Top notch, fabrication looks excellent.
Setting up the geometry will be fun, it's gonna take a while to get everything dialed in just right though!
Yes geometry is going to be a right pain!
Super Slo Mo said:
Max_Torque said:
Now, if that was mine, i'd be sticking on a electronic throttle on each engine, and a steering angle sensor and Yaw sensor, then map the engines for dynamic torque control, hoof the back out on the rear engine and then bring in the front one to hold the slide. active torque dynamics - sweet! lol!
Nah, too complicated. He just needs two accelerator pedals And to learn to 'fiddle' throttle with both left and right feet
Havant got loads of photos atm due to the car needing a bloody good clean! However loads of work has been done!!! But as always 5 jobs get finished, 5 more jobs get added!! Grrr. I’m still without suspension, hoping some advertisement on car may help cover the expenses. Had talks with Dave @ Gaz shocks and we have come up with a great setup and I’m very impressed with his knowledge and time for customers.
Finally got the rear engine running shortly after installing the fuel tank, I used a Bmw 3.2 M3 Map and after a couple of small changes had it running for the first time in 5 years! I’m presently surprised how quite it is too!
All was looking great, until I noticed the exhaust wrap, discolouring and falling off! I was not a happy bunny! So this had to come off and go in the bin! I’m now looking into an alternative to reducing the heat in the rear cabin and protecting hoses, lines and looms etc
Closing update of a 6 year project up and coming, I will have to break it down as there has been so much work, ideas, etc
Hopefully tomorrow will be the first time both engine’s have ran together,
All the suspension has been fitted, just needing a very basic wheel alignment to be able to book in at the rolling road.
The only jobs remaining are:
Replace rear gear linkage cable - seized
Clutch mechanism
A few chips and scratches sorting out.
Cabin supports shortening.
Rear bumper needs some more cutting to fit exhaust.
Brake light connecting.
Calibrate speedo and get new cable made.
Pictures will soon follow. Its now finally made its way round and is now sitting in my tiny garage were its almost impossible to work on, extremely dusty, so it will need a good clean and better weather.
Video tomorrow if possible!
Hopefully tomorrow will be the first time both engine’s have ran together,
All the suspension has been fitted, just needing a very basic wheel alignment to be able to book in at the rolling road.
The only jobs remaining are:
Replace rear gear linkage cable - seized
Clutch mechanism
A few chips and scratches sorting out.
Cabin supports shortening.
Rear bumper needs some more cutting to fit exhaust.
Brake light connecting.
Calibrate speedo and get new cable made.
Pictures will soon follow. Its now finally made its way round and is now sitting in my tiny garage were its almost impossible to work on, extremely dusty, so it will need a good clean and better weather.
Video tomorrow if possible!
No Guts No Glory said:
Pictures will soon follow. Its now finally made its way round and is now sitting in my tiny garage were its almost impossible to work on, extremely dusty, so it will need a good clean and better weather.
Video tomorrow if possible!
Don't you dare forget! The twin-engined car for me is the pinnacle of what car modifications are about, I remember very clearly reading about the baby-blue twin-VR6 golf Mk2 (which was also the first car in the UK on TSW Venoms IIRC) and have read endless webpages about other conversions. Very very impressive all round sirVideo tomorrow if possible!
Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff