My 350Z: twin turbos and forged engine
Discussion
I thought I'd make an "introductory thread" as I've been posting for a while but haven't really introduced myself properly on here.
I've had my car since new and I now have modified it quite a bit!
After a couple years saving up, extensive research for all parts and the twin turbo kit, I decided to use Torque Development in Thurrock, for a series of reasons: reputation, experience with the VQ35DE engine and because they can help Paul @ TDI North for servicing/issues if needed. I provided all parts, after going through the build list with Mark. I sourced all parts from the US, when the $ was basically 2:1 saving quite a lot. Mind you, some parts (exhaust, some parts of the TT kit) had to be modified to fit a rhd car, and although I'd tried to do as much research as possible beforehand, TDI still had to do quite a lot of modifications (=more labour costs). Swings and roundabouts I guess.
some more pics of shiny internals!
well after getting the engine run in with about 1500 miles @ 0.2bar boost and 4k rpm (torture!) I had the car tuned. here are the results:
bearing in mind the turbo actuators have the std (softest) springs and the Haltech has no boost solenoid, I got (on a Rototest hub dyno)
385hp and 366lb/ft torque
the good bit is that the tq/hp are pretty much nice and flat from very low rpms, and all this at 0.5/0.6 BAR.
The engine is basically "overbuilt" for this level of power, but that was the aim from the beginning in order to try and maximise reliability and longevity.
here are the dyno graphs and pics and video.
I've also done a little youtube vid with the story of my Z, mod list and power run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNbGpJLeTNw
enjoy!
I've had my car since new and I now have modified it quite a bit!
After a couple years saving up, extensive research for all parts and the twin turbo kit, I decided to use Torque Development in Thurrock, for a series of reasons: reputation, experience with the VQ35DE engine and because they can help Paul @ TDI North for servicing/issues if needed. I provided all parts, after going through the build list with Mark. I sourced all parts from the US, when the $ was basically 2:1 saving quite a lot. Mind you, some parts (exhaust, some parts of the TT kit) had to be modified to fit a rhd car, and although I'd tried to do as much research as possible beforehand, TDI still had to do quite a lot of modifications (=more labour costs). Swings and roundabouts I guess.
some more pics of shiny internals!
well after getting the engine run in with about 1500 miles @ 0.2bar boost and 4k rpm (torture!) I had the car tuned. here are the results:
bearing in mind the turbo actuators have the std (softest) springs and the Haltech has no boost solenoid, I got (on a Rototest hub dyno)
385hp and 366lb/ft torque
the good bit is that the tq/hp are pretty much nice and flat from very low rpms, and all this at 0.5/0.6 BAR.
The engine is basically "overbuilt" for this level of power, but that was the aim from the beginning in order to try and maximise reliability and longevity.
here are the dyno graphs and pics and video.
I've also done a little youtube vid with the story of my Z, mod list and power run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNbGpJLeTNw
enjoy!
Edited by TheMinel on Sunday 8th August 09:44
TheMinel said:
FraserLFA said:
TheMinel said:
musclecarmad said:
lovely car, mind you i love normal 350z's.
however, can I ask how much it cost as I can't see that being cheap? I think it's fantastic and i'm sure it's fast but I can't help thinking that the cost involved may not make it worth it - having said that i'm a tight yorkshireman!
Good for you on having such a cracking car
depends on what you think is "worth it" mate.... I've never thought about it as an investment, more as a hobby.. I'm never going to get my money back off it, I know that. That said, it's the only 350Z in the country with forged internals coupled with my twin turbo kit, afaik. Most built engine 350Z in the UK will have the APS TT kit, which does have bigger turbos than mine but also a bit more lag. As for numbers, I can always get higher #s with stiffer springs (which incidentally I already have) and a boost solenoid to put on the Haltech engine management to get in the mid 400s at the hubs, or upgrade the turbos to get to a driveable 500hp at the hubs. Anything you see beyond that on other builds will be for bragging rights only, as they'll never put the power down...however, can I ask how much it cost as I can't see that being cheap? I think it's fantastic and i'm sure it's fast but I can't help thinking that the cost involved may not make it worth it - having said that i'm a tight yorkshireman!
Good for you on having such a cracking car
As for costs involved, suffice to know that the engine build and the parts for it were pretty much £25k.... not for the faint hearted
I'm not to sure I get this, If I'm right in thinking the car standard has 300-bhp, and you spend all that money and time to get an extra 85-Bhp. Shouldn't this car be putting 500-Bhp with them modification. This just seem like a lot of effort with not mush in the way of performance gain?
I understand why people who don't know VQ35DEs and their "aversion to FI" say "why only that power, you can have more" etc.
For me it's always been about the balance between power and reliability. You do a FI build on a std engine and sooner or later you'll have issues, regardless of what they tell you (they=tuners out there). Mess about the mapping on a std engine and say bye bye to the rods. Get a little greedy on the tq side (say with a APS TT kit on std internals) and again, ka-boom.
I wanted to get a TT kit with basically no lag. Superchargers are inferior on the Z imo due to the power delivery being pretty much only at higher rev bands, and the stupid whining noise they make.
I have a platform where I can relatively easily up the boost for a few more horses if I want to, but tbh the current state is plenty powerful and reliable as it stands
Std cars (mine's 2004) have 276bhp (I had about 240 at the wheels)so I actually got a decent bump of 145hp/wheels out of the relatively mild TT kit setup.
Agreed it's lots of money, but on the Z you can take your choices
1- do it on the cheap, don't do internals, maybe even try some DIY build, and take your risks (and end up spending more in the long run imo...)
2- Get trusted professionals to do all the work (from the build to the tuning, so that they are responsible for their work), do the engine up properly, stay withing sensible power/tq levels, and aim to do all this only ONCE.
I chose option 2
For me it's always been about the balance between power and reliability. You do a FI build on a std engine and sooner or later you'll have issues, regardless of what they tell you (they=tuners out there). Mess about the mapping on a std engine and say bye bye to the rods. Get a little greedy on the tq side (say with a APS TT kit on std internals) and again, ka-boom.
I wanted to get a TT kit with basically no lag. Superchargers are inferior on the Z imo due to the power delivery being pretty much only at higher rev bands, and the stupid whining noise they make.
I have a platform where I can relatively easily up the boost for a few more horses if I want to, but tbh the current state is plenty powerful and reliable as it stands
Std cars (mine's 2004) have 276bhp (I had about 240 at the wheels)so I actually got a decent bump of 145hp/wheels out of the relatively mild TT kit setup.
Agreed it's lots of money, but on the Z you can take your choices
1- do it on the cheap, don't do internals, maybe even try some DIY build, and take your risks (and end up spending more in the long run imo...)
2- Get trusted professionals to do all the work (from the build to the tuning, so that they are responsible for their work), do the engine up properly, stay withing sensible power/tq levels, and aim to do all this only ONCE.
I chose option 2
I can see where your going with the engine, it may have cost a small fortune but for the reliablity maybe thats worth it.
However the outside looks dire, the wheels don't suit it and the body kit and graphics do it no favours either, each to their own and everything but the 350Z just didnt need all that sticking on it.
However the outside looks dire, the wheels don't suit it and the body kit and graphics do it no favours either, each to their own and everything but the 350Z just didnt need all that sticking on it.
25k? Seriously??
I understand improving cars and making performance modifications but; and I know this sounds dull. Say the car was 12k at a total guess. You've spent 37k and still have circa 5 year old Nissan..
I know I could have the figures and age a little out but can't be by much.
Cayman S anyone? http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1943011.htm
I understand improving cars and making performance modifications but; and I know this sounds dull. Say the car was 12k at a total guess. You've spent 37k and still have circa 5 year old Nissan..
I know I could have the figures and age a little out but can't be by much.
Cayman S anyone? http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1943011.htm
TheMinel said:
1- do it on the cheap, don't do internals, maybe even try some DIY build, and take your risks (and end up spending more in the long run imo...)
How could you possibly end up spending more in the long run? 350z are worth a lot less than 25k, you could buy a whole new one if/ when it breaks!TheMinel said:
I understand why people who don't know VQ35DEs and their "aversion to FI" say "why only that power, you can have more" etc.
For me it's always been about the balance between power and reliability. You do a FI build on a std engine and sooner or later you'll have issues, regardless of what they tell you (they=tuners out there). Mess about the mapping on a std engine and say bye bye to the rods. Get a little greedy on the tq side (say with a APS TT kit on std internals) and again, ka-boom.
I wanted to get a TT kit with basically no lag. Superchargers are inferior on the Z imo due to the power delivery being pretty much only at higher rev bands, and the stupid whining noise they make.
I have a platform where I can relatively easily up the boost for a few more horses if I want to, but tbh the current state is plenty powerful and reliable as it stands
Std cars (mine's 2004) have 276bhp (I had about 240 at the wheels)so I actually got a decent bump of 145hp/wheels out of the relatively mild TT kit setup.
Agreed it's lots of money, but on the Z you can take your choices
1- do it on the cheap, don't do internals, maybe even try some DIY build, and take your risks (and end up spending more in the long run imo...)
2- Get trusted professionals to do all the work (from the build to the tuning, so that they are responsible for their work), do the engine up properly, stay withing sensible power/tq levels, and aim to do all this only ONCE.
I chose option 2
But with a cheapo option, if it blows you and get another lump, you will still spend far less than the 25K you have spent in total.For me it's always been about the balance between power and reliability. You do a FI build on a std engine and sooner or later you'll have issues, regardless of what they tell you (they=tuners out there). Mess about the mapping on a std engine and say bye bye to the rods. Get a little greedy on the tq side (say with a APS TT kit on std internals) and again, ka-boom.
I wanted to get a TT kit with basically no lag. Superchargers are inferior on the Z imo due to the power delivery being pretty much only at higher rev bands, and the stupid whining noise they make.
I have a platform where I can relatively easily up the boost for a few more horses if I want to, but tbh the current state is plenty powerful and reliable as it stands
Std cars (mine's 2004) have 276bhp (I had about 240 at the wheels)so I actually got a decent bump of 145hp/wheels out of the relatively mild TT kit setup.
Agreed it's lots of money, but on the Z you can take your choices
1- do it on the cheap, don't do internals, maybe even try some DIY build, and take your risks (and end up spending more in the long run imo...)
2- Get trusted professionals to do all the work (from the build to the tuning, so that they are responsible for their work), do the engine up properly, stay withing sensible power/tq levels, and aim to do all this only ONCE.
I chose option 2
So how much (just out of intrest) was actual parts? 6k? Are you sure you haven't been robbed by the garage over labour? Seems very extreme.
Edited by joe_90 on Monday 9th August 11:48
paulrhodes said:
25k? Seriously??
I understand improving cars and making performance modifications but; and I know this sounds dull. Say the car was 12k at a total guess. You've spent 37k and still have circa 5 year old Nissan..
I know I could have the figures and age a little out but can't be by much.
Cayman S anyone? http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1943011.htm
I had the car from new mate, it was a Uk base 350Z so it was £25k when I bought it.I understand improving cars and making performance modifications but; and I know this sounds dull. Say the car was 12k at a total guess. You've spent 37k and still have circa 5 year old Nissan..
I know I could have the figures and age a little out but can't be by much.
Cayman S anyone? http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1943011.htm
joe_90 said:
TheMinel said:
I understand why people who don't know VQ35DEs and their "aversion to FI" say "why only that power, you can have more" etc.
For me it's always been about the balance between power and reliability. You do a FI build on a std engine and sooner or later you'll have issues, regardless of what they tell you (they=tuners out there). Mess about the mapping on a std engine and say bye bye to the rods. Get a little greedy on the tq side (say with a APS TT kit on std internals) and again, ka-boom.
I wanted to get a TT kit with basically no lag. Superchargers are inferior on the Z imo due to the power delivery being pretty much only at higher rev bands, and the stupid whining noise they make.
I have a platform where I can relatively easily up the boost for a few more horses if I want to, but tbh the current state is plenty powerful and reliable as it stands
Std cars (mine's 2004) have 276bhp (I had about 240 at the wheels)so I actually got a decent bump of 145hp/wheels out of the relatively mild TT kit setup.
Agreed it's lots of money, but on the Z you can take your choices
1- do it on the cheap, don't do internals, maybe even try some DIY build, and take your risks (and end up spending more in the long run imo...)
2- Get trusted professionals to do all the work (from the build to the tuning, so that they are responsible for their work), do the engine up properly, stay withing sensible power/tq levels, and aim to do all this only ONCE.
I chose option 2
But with a cheapo option, if it blows you and get another lump, you will still spend far less than the 25K you have spent in total.For me it's always been about the balance between power and reliability. You do a FI build on a std engine and sooner or later you'll have issues, regardless of what they tell you (they=tuners out there). Mess about the mapping on a std engine and say bye bye to the rods. Get a little greedy on the tq side (say with a APS TT kit on std internals) and again, ka-boom.
I wanted to get a TT kit with basically no lag. Superchargers are inferior on the Z imo due to the power delivery being pretty much only at higher rev bands, and the stupid whining noise they make.
I have a platform where I can relatively easily up the boost for a few more horses if I want to, but tbh the current state is plenty powerful and reliable as it stands
Std cars (mine's 2004) have 276bhp (I had about 240 at the wheels)so I actually got a decent bump of 145hp/wheels out of the relatively mild TT kit setup.
Agreed it's lots of money, but on the Z you can take your choices
1- do it on the cheap, don't do internals, maybe even try some DIY build, and take your risks (and end up spending more in the long run imo...)
2- Get trusted professionals to do all the work (from the build to the tuning, so that they are responsible for their work), do the engine up properly, stay withing sensible power/tq levels, and aim to do all this only ONCE.
I chose option 2
So how much (just out of intrest) was actual parts? 6k? Are you sure you haven't been robbed by the garage over labour? Seems very extreme.
Edited by joe_90 on Monday 9th August 11:48
Here's the ancillaries costat the time, most from the US so in dollars, some from UK distributors.
• PE cast turbo manifolds $1600
• Koyo double row $420
• APS 3.5” test pipes £300
• APS 3” true dual exhaust £980 then changed to HKS titanium tipped true dual which was about $1200 IIRC
• Haltech Platinum EMS $2290
• Oil cooler Stillen $410
• Samco Sport Coolant (4) Hose Kit 350Z $180
• PE Actuator Springs for higher boost $20
• bigger injectors Denso DW 600cc $520
• CJM fuel return system $950
• Carbonetics twin carbon clutch £1250
• SS braided clutch hose $50
• Defi gauges Full set $900
• AEM A/F wideband $299
• Cosworth conrods $1350
• Cosworth pistons $1575
• Cosworth rings $160
• Cosworth bearing and thrust washers $225
• Cosworth headgasket $225
• ARP Studs for engine L19 $450
• NGK Iridum Spark plug set (One step colder than stock) $50
• Nismo Oil pump $1000
Labour... well TDI charges normally £95/hour + VAT, go look them up, they are pretty much amongts the top tuners in the UK, and I'm firmly convinced, especially with a full build like this, you pay cheap, you pay twice... And no they didn't rip me off , I have had a very good experience with them. I did have some unexpected valve issues that they discover so that was about £800 just in new parts to sort that out. I have had a weekly breakdown of labour/parts needed and to be honest the engine bay finish reflects the quality of the workmanship of the guys, who also stand behind their own labour, something that with a job like this I'd very much want. Too many times I've read/heard/witnessed botched jobs done in the UK (resulting in a series of blown up VQs, by the way) by tuners who were reputedly "experts" in what they were doing... LOL As for the DIYers.... good luck to them!
Go ask Abbey, MJP auto, or even Zmanalex (well known engine builder of VQ35DE in the UK) to spec you the same engine as mine plus labour and see what they say
Edited by TheMinel on Monday 9th August 14:35
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