Noble M12 heavily modified
Discussion
Due to other projects (mainly doubling the size of my house) I have not done much on the noble over the past year or so... yes the Capri project has been taking my garage time up but that was no excuse, so something had to be done.
So over xmas in readiness for the car to be on show at Autosport I decided to make a second carbon seat for the passenger side and reupholster the seats with black and red leather, nothing fancy I must point out as Im only an amateur and I didn't want it to looks pants.
Whilst at the autosport show I spent quite a bit of time thinking about my final plans to finish off the car and took the expensive decision to replace the current Motec M800 ecu with the latest Motec M150 offering, this will allow me to run everything I do now but also add DBW and monitor various other car/engine related stuff in the future.... I also bought a new DASH 2 pro dash system to replace the Stack 8110 unit i currently run for a variety of technical reasons.... For me it was a very very expensive show.
While I am changing the ecu Im going to fit some upgraded coils, ID injectors, make a new inlet plenum and change to ITB's... not looking for more power, just want to future proof the car more and give some of the components some extra safety margins.
Anyhow back to the seats and more importantly pics
seats
Bagged the seat up after clearing up the xmas dinner, even had Wifal approval
Made some new rear spoiler uprights, basically each one was 4 sheets of 4mm resin infused 650g carbon, shaped and then bonded together.... I have WAY over engineered these yet they weight under 1kg each.... undecided on the wing end plates (which are 2 thin sheets of carbon with a 4mm foam core), decided to go bigger and trim them down later if I decided they are so massive lol.
(picture from peter8171)
So over xmas in readiness for the car to be on show at Autosport I decided to make a second carbon seat for the passenger side and reupholster the seats with black and red leather, nothing fancy I must point out as Im only an amateur and I didn't want it to looks pants.
Whilst at the autosport show I spent quite a bit of time thinking about my final plans to finish off the car and took the expensive decision to replace the current Motec M800 ecu with the latest Motec M150 offering, this will allow me to run everything I do now but also add DBW and monitor various other car/engine related stuff in the future.... I also bought a new DASH 2 pro dash system to replace the Stack 8110 unit i currently run for a variety of technical reasons.... For me it was a very very expensive show.
While I am changing the ecu Im going to fit some upgraded coils, ID injectors, make a new inlet plenum and change to ITB's... not looking for more power, just want to future proof the car more and give some of the components some extra safety margins.
Anyhow back to the seats and more importantly pics
seats
Bagged the seat up after clearing up the xmas dinner, even had Wifal approval
Made some new rear spoiler uprights, basically each one was 4 sheets of 4mm resin infused 650g carbon, shaped and then bonded together.... I have WAY over engineered these yet they weight under 1kg each.... undecided on the wing end plates (which are 2 thin sheets of carbon with a 4mm foam core), decided to go bigger and trim them down later if I decided they are so massive lol.
(picture from peter8171)
Edited by andygtt on Monday 26th March 10:41
Storer said:
I spotted your car at Autosport. It is a major achievement to create an entire body like that in CF. You are a man after my own heart, being prepared to 'have a go' yourself.
The front clip looked very professional as did the wing and centre section. Am I correct that the rear clip was one of the earlier pieces you did as it looked less sorted?
I have to say that the end product looked better that the recreation of the Cerbera Speed 12 on one of the other stands at the show.
I am sure you spotted the Noble M600. It stopped me in my tracks and had me studying it in great detail. It looked fabulous in that deep red weave (or lacquer). You can see where some of the £300k goes.....
Keep up the good work.
Paul
PS. Good idea having a glass wall between your workshop and kitchen so you are less isolated!!!
Thanks Paul, you are correct the rear clam was essentially the first part I made in carbon, at that time it was going to be painted and I had no idea you could lay weave neatly to the finish I later achieved.... been meaning to remake the rear clam for some time now so its something I may do next winter to complete the body properly. I do have the complete moulds after all so don't have any excuse lolThe front clip looked very professional as did the wing and centre section. Am I correct that the rear clip was one of the earlier pieces you did as it looked less sorted?
I have to say that the end product looked better that the recreation of the Cerbera Speed 12 on one of the other stands at the show.
I am sure you spotted the Noble M600. It stopped me in my tracks and had me studying it in great detail. It looked fabulous in that deep red weave (or lacquer). You can see where some of the £300k goes.....
Keep up the good work.
Paul
PS. Good idea having a glass wall between your workshop and kitchen so you are less isolated!!!
My Wife does keep mentioning the coloured lacquer of the M600, I have had a go myself and its not easy to get a consistent finish they achieve. I recon I would need to be paying best part of 10k for a top top paint show to do it.
stevieturbo said:
Was great to have a chat with you Andy, car is looking fantastic ! That carbon stuff is strong.
Enjoyed our chat, great to meet you in person after spending so many years asking your advice Who knows maybe we will eventually meet again at TOTB if i ever get my arse into gear lol
stevebroad said:
Makes my efforts look pretty lame :-)
With regard to the front clip, what materials did you use? I'm planning making one for my Elan and was thinking of two layers of carbon, layer of 2mm soric then one layer of carbon and one of aramid.
Your layup is pretty similar to what I did for my front clam, I used 3mm soric as I felt that gave a better cushion to prevent stone chips and only used kevlar in the wheel arches. you can beef up areas of structural importance such as bolt locations, returns etc and not use sonic in that location as the shape gives the rigidity. With regard to the front clip, what materials did you use? I'm planning making one for my Elan and was thinking of two layers of carbon, layer of 2mm soric then one layer of carbon and one of aramid.
Edited by stevebroad on Sunday 22 January 19:47
I used only carbon, soric (the foam core) and kevlar/carbon.
Soric was mostly used everywhere and importantly above the wheels as this avoids any star crazing from stones, its tight curves and complex strength areas that i used pure carbon and omitted the soric.
kevlar/ carbon weave was used in areas above the wheels to stop stones going through.
It really does depend on what you are after... I wanted the panels lighter but also stronger than original, I could have reduced another 1kgs or so if i had used 2mm soric and lighter carbon layers.... A good example are my doors, I wanted these very stiff with some side impact protection (unlike stock which is just GF) so I beefed up the carbon both sides of the soric and had some heavy layers of Kevlar. They ended up only 3kgs lighter than stock but are proper brick outhouses in comparison.
As I say for a very light Clam, your original suggested layup is actually pretty spot on IMO.... if you were local you would be more than welcome to come and see the panels on the car and discuss it
Soric was mostly used everywhere and importantly above the wheels as this avoids any star crazing from stones, its tight curves and complex strength areas that i used pure carbon and omitted the soric.
kevlar/ carbon weave was used in areas above the wheels to stop stones going through.
It really does depend on what you are after... I wanted the panels lighter but also stronger than original, I could have reduced another 1kgs or so if i had used 2mm soric and lighter carbon layers.... A good example are my doors, I wanted these very stiff with some side impact protection (unlike stock which is just GF) so I beefed up the carbon both sides of the soric and had some heavy layers of Kevlar. They ended up only 3kgs lighter than stock but are proper brick outhouses in comparison.
As I say for a very light Clam, your original suggested layup is actually pretty spot on IMO.... if you were local you would be more than welcome to come and see the panels on the car and discuss it
I did see another post from someone local that was interested in seeing the car, maybe a mini meet should be arranged
Not sent my number through yet as had a few family health issues to deal with so car stuff is a low priority right now... certainly I will be doing some carbon stuff in a month as I want to make myself a rear wing (as I have moulds)... Prob best to send a message to me as a prompt and I will send my number through
Not sent my number through yet as had a few family health issues to deal with so car stuff is a low priority right now... certainly I will be doing some carbon stuff in a month as I want to make myself a rear wing (as I have moulds)... Prob best to send a message to me as a prompt and I will send my number through
Warmfuzzies said:
andygtt said:
I did see another post from someone local that was interested in seeing the car, maybe a mini meet should be arranged
Not sent my number through yet as had a few family health issues to deal with so car stuff is a low priority right now... certainly I will be doing some carbon stuff in a month as I want to make myself a rear wing (as I have moulds)... Prob best to send a message to me as a prompt and I will send my number through
Andy Not sent my number through yet as had a few family health issues to deal with so car stuff is a low priority right now... certainly I will be doing some carbon stuff in a month as I want to make myself a rear wing (as I have moulds)... Prob best to send a message to me as a prompt and I will send my number through
That might have been me, I deleted it as I felt I might have been intruding
I'm in west bergholt. Red 964c2 is my weekend toy.
K
I use both prepreg and resin infusion to make parts, and I built myself an oven specifically for my wing mounds....
I cure both in the oven as it leads for the best finish etc imo
My wing is made in resin infusion as that means I can use a core to strengthen it without the need to fill it with foam... I'm expecting it to be as stiff and yet 30% lighter than the current (very expensive) as one.
Don't fall into the trap that prepreg is superior to resin infusion as it isn't, often parts are stronger land lighter using resin infusion with identical surface finish
I cure both in the oven as it leads for the best finish etc imo
My wing is made in resin infusion as that means I can use a core to strengthen it without the need to fill it with foam... I'm expecting it to be as stiff and yet 30% lighter than the current (very expensive) as one.
Don't fall into the trap that prepreg is superior to resin infusion as it isn't, often parts are stronger land lighter using resin infusion with identical surface finish
stevebroad said:
andygtt said:
I use both prepreg and resin infusion to make parts, and I built myself an oven specifically for my wing mounds....
I cure both in the oven as it leads for the best finish etc imo
My wing is made in resin infusion as that means I can use a core to strengthen it without the need to fill it with foam... I'm expecting it to be as stiff and yet 30% lighter than the current (very expensive) as one.
Don't fall into the trap that prepreg is superior to resin infusion as it isn't, often parts are stronger land lighter using resin infusion with identical surface finish
Very interested in seeing your oven and wing construction :-)I cure both in the oven as it leads for the best finish etc imo
My wing is made in resin infusion as that means I can use a core to strengthen it without the need to fill it with foam... I'm expecting it to be as stiff and yet 30% lighter than the current (very expensive) as one.
Don't fall into the trap that prepreg is superior to resin infusion as it isn't, often parts are stronger land lighter using resin infusion with identical surface finish
Interesting that infusion is often lighter than prepreg, what with the prepreg being impregnated with optimum resin quantity.
Resin infusion does infuse a reasonably precise amount of resin so structurally it's not a long way off of pre preg if you did the exact same layup.
Of cause you could do a core in pre preg and have the part lighter for the same strength, however In the case of the wing you would require making a mould of each side twice (inner and outer) then pulling the 4 parts and bonding foam between them.... Loads more work for a few grams lighter.
Resin infusion takes loads more time than pre preg and is harder work... That's why not many professionals use the system.
Decided to take a break from the Capri and concentrate on finishing the Noble off over winter... List of jobs is extremely long and at the end of it the car will almost identical, everything will be under the skin.
Absolutely every single component of the braking system with be completely redesigned, I have even made myself a new brake pedal with bike wheel bearings as the pivot as I'm eliminating the servo.... Car has 30 pots now.
We Engine management, changing from the Motec M800 to a Syvec S8 (its a rebranded Life F88 unit). Brand new engine loom, DBW to manage the ITB's. Also upgrading the turbo from the air works range to the latest EFR one. Turbo speed will now be monitored as well.
Designing myself a roll bar setup, the M400 and M600 run a front roll bar, but i wasn't impressed with it so decided to design my own using an adjustable blade system.
Photo bucket killed all the old pics so here is rehoused ones.
Brakes:
Absolutely every single component of the braking system with be completely redesigned, I have even made myself a new brake pedal with bike wheel bearings as the pivot as I'm eliminating the servo.... Car has 30 pots now.
We Engine management, changing from the Motec M800 to a Syvec S8 (its a rebranded Life F88 unit). Brand new engine loom, DBW to manage the ITB's. Also upgrading the turbo from the air works range to the latest EFR one. Turbo speed will now be monitored as well.
Designing myself a roll bar setup, the M400 and M600 run a front roll bar, but i wasn't impressed with it so decided to design my own using an adjustable blade system.
Photo bucket killed all the old pics so here is rehoused ones.
Brakes:
turbo will be EFR 9180 divided housing.
One issue with ITB is making usable engine vacuum, meaning i would have had to run an electric pump to generate brake vacuum. This was my plan until i decided to change the whole braking system and decided i wanted the flexibility of 2 separate masters.
I want the car to become more 'raw' as my wife doesn't drive the car anyhow.
One issue with ITB is making usable engine vacuum, meaning i would have had to run an electric pump to generate brake vacuum. This was my plan until i decided to change the whole braking system and decided i wanted the flexibility of 2 separate masters.
I want the car to become more 'raw' as my wife doesn't drive the car anyhow.
So I have sad news... the noble has suffered from Severe spec creep!
The reason for the spec creep is complicated lol
While I was finalising the new brakes and the roll bars I decided to pull the engine and give it a refresh.
The engine had been using quite a bit of oil (2 litres per 1000 miles when I properly monitored it) and I had a slight tick from the top end... yes it smoked when accelerating but it still went well and it had done less than 5000miles since the last refresh which was just a precaution at the time.
Initial inspection showed oil on the valve stems of the exhaust plus the turbo had lost an internal circlip... both these would cause significant oil consumption.
Further investigation we discovered 3 of the bores had a 10% leak down (around what a good engine will have) and 2 had 20% which is about the limit for showing it needs a refresh.... however one cylinder had a 70% leak down and it was clearly coming from the intake so the heads would need a refresh.
Worse we found significant damage to the exhaust cam of the same bore where the rocker had clearly impacted the cam through valve bounce... either the valve spring had gone soft or the tappet had failed at high rpm... either way the cam was scrap and we found signed of impact on other cam lobes (but not all).
The bad news continued when we removed the heads and found the piston to bore clearance was 280microns and as such the pistons and bores were damaged... this was terrible news as the cosworth pistons are only available if i buy a batch of 48 pistons (and there isn't a demand for them to do a group buy). Even better news is that the block (which was new a few years back) was rebored to its max for the cosworth pistons as they are oversize, so the block can't go again
Basically my entire engine is scrap, I can save the crank and the Mountune rods will need a clean up as one of the piston pins was seized in a rod, also i can't actually replicate the engine spec again as I can no longer get the pistons and I had a gain when i moved from the previous off the shelf highest spec piston available.
So what to do?...
Upgrade of cause!
So a change of engine was decided upon... Im still using the same bottom end, I'm just going to use some heads that have VVT and remove the rockers allowing me to rev it even higher than my current 8000rpm. to that end I also need a dry sump as it seems 8000rpm is too much for the standard oil pump...
Also I decided to change the gearbox for an all new box that a friend had been developing to fit the car.
I made my own adapter plate on my mill and managed to lower the engine around 1 inch.
The good news with the heads is that the exhaust still bolt straight up, the bad news is that it changes the flow of the water and it exists into the front engine mount... Not the end of the world as I was already remaking all the other engine mounts and was moving an electric water pump anyhow.
I also decided to go for an EFR9174 as it has extra RPM capability over my previous choice of EFR9180, Also the spec I chose was the alloy bearing housing as it saves 5 lbs in weight.
Engine wise I managed to source a brand new complete engine as a starting point and I am sourcing all the forged internals to suit, Im going to piper for cams, Omega for pistons and Arrow for the rods. Ive decided to start with a slightly higher CR than previous and reduce it later if I am knock limited, I have 2 knock sensors going on the engine with the Syvec (I had none before) so I stand a better chance of controlling it than before.
All these changes should suit the ITB's and carbon plenum that I have developed and the Syvec S8 will run it perfectly.... in fact all the changes I was previously making such as removing the power steering, upgrading the ECU, fitting electric water pump all needed doing to fit the new heads so its almost as though this was my end plan all along!
Don't have many pics yet as its all development which is never particularly photogenic lol
The reason for the spec creep is complicated lol
While I was finalising the new brakes and the roll bars I decided to pull the engine and give it a refresh.
The engine had been using quite a bit of oil (2 litres per 1000 miles when I properly monitored it) and I had a slight tick from the top end... yes it smoked when accelerating but it still went well and it had done less than 5000miles since the last refresh which was just a precaution at the time.
Initial inspection showed oil on the valve stems of the exhaust plus the turbo had lost an internal circlip... both these would cause significant oil consumption.
Further investigation we discovered 3 of the bores had a 10% leak down (around what a good engine will have) and 2 had 20% which is about the limit for showing it needs a refresh.... however one cylinder had a 70% leak down and it was clearly coming from the intake so the heads would need a refresh.
Worse we found significant damage to the exhaust cam of the same bore where the rocker had clearly impacted the cam through valve bounce... either the valve spring had gone soft or the tappet had failed at high rpm... either way the cam was scrap and we found signed of impact on other cam lobes (but not all).
The bad news continued when we removed the heads and found the piston to bore clearance was 280microns and as such the pistons and bores were damaged... this was terrible news as the cosworth pistons are only available if i buy a batch of 48 pistons (and there isn't a demand for them to do a group buy). Even better news is that the block (which was new a few years back) was rebored to its max for the cosworth pistons as they are oversize, so the block can't go again
Basically my entire engine is scrap, I can save the crank and the Mountune rods will need a clean up as one of the piston pins was seized in a rod, also i can't actually replicate the engine spec again as I can no longer get the pistons and I had a gain when i moved from the previous off the shelf highest spec piston available.
So what to do?...
Upgrade of cause!
So a change of engine was decided upon... Im still using the same bottom end, I'm just going to use some heads that have VVT and remove the rockers allowing me to rev it even higher than my current 8000rpm. to that end I also need a dry sump as it seems 8000rpm is too much for the standard oil pump...
Also I decided to change the gearbox for an all new box that a friend had been developing to fit the car.
I made my own adapter plate on my mill and managed to lower the engine around 1 inch.
The good news with the heads is that the exhaust still bolt straight up, the bad news is that it changes the flow of the water and it exists into the front engine mount... Not the end of the world as I was already remaking all the other engine mounts and was moving an electric water pump anyhow.
I also decided to go for an EFR9174 as it has extra RPM capability over my previous choice of EFR9180, Also the spec I chose was the alloy bearing housing as it saves 5 lbs in weight
.Engine wise I managed to source a brand new complete engine as a starting point and I am sourcing all the forged internals to suit, Im going to piper for cams, Omega for pistons and Arrow for the rods. Ive decided to start with a slightly higher CR than previous and reduce it later if I am knock limited, I have 2 knock sensors going on the engine with the Syvec (I had none before) so I stand a better chance of controlling it than before.
All these changes should suit the ITB's and carbon plenum that I have developed and the Syvec S8 will run it perfectly.... in fact all the changes I was previously making such as removing the power steering, upgrading the ECU, fitting electric water pump all needed doing to fit the new heads so its almost as though this was my end plan all along!
Don't have many pics yet as its all development which is never particularly photogenic lol
Edited by andygtt on Tuesday 28th August 13:00
e30m3Mark said:
Kudos for the fabrication skills! How you're managing this alongside that Capri is baffling to mere mortals like myself. Am looking forward to seeing where this takes you in terms of power and improved performance.
TBH the capri is taking a back seat until the noble is back on the road... Initially Im not targeting huge power from the noble as the first engine will be a development item. Im saving the brand new engine/block till later and initially building up one of the spare blocks i have lying around and using a pair of brand new heads i managed to buy.I've also just started restoring my youngest daughters rust bucket of a beetle, she is 17 in just over 2 weeks so got a little pressure to get that done, however i promised her so i just need to buckle down and get it done... Never fixed rusty bodywork before so it a bit of a steep learning curve lol
Just realised I missed the best picture.... would you believe this is 'technically' a smaller turbo than I used to run as the turbine is 74mm and my previous was 80mm... flows 20% more air than the last though so its a significant upgrade
Not updated this for a while.
Ive had yet more spec creap... I removed the windscreen and dash so I could remake the heater box... Previous dash was already modified and I had it trimmed in leather about 7 years back... didnt stop me thinking why not make my own design in carbon while i'm there?
Wife thought I was mad, especially when she came in the garage and found the first mock ups!
dash
I decided to totally disregard my wife's concerns and started taking moulds so I could make the parts in carbon, I was very happy with the final result... still a long way to go with more lacquer on the current finished parts and some bucks and moulds for the drivers side.
V weave isn't perfect and it needs a proper flat and final coat before fitting!
I also decided to make some major changes to the mechanics as I got fed up with having limited wheel choice due to the Noble unique offset and ford PCD... so I decided to machine the uprights to take a much larger wheel bearing and moved it inside the upright.... with a mix of hubs and wheel bearings this allowed me to fit BMW M5 wheels straight on.
I now have a choice from thousands of different wheel designs that will bolt straight on
My choice of wheel is for road 11x19 rear and 9.5x19 front with as big a dish wheel I could find.... The road wheels are really deliberately aggressive with the offsets and as such so for the track I have gone for custom made 10x18 rear and 8.5x18 front Braid with as big a dish as they could do on and 5mm more offset to bring them under the arch a little more.
Ive had yet more spec creap... I removed the windscreen and dash so I could remake the heater box... Previous dash was already modified and I had it trimmed in leather about 7 years back... didnt stop me thinking why not make my own design in carbon while i'm there?
Wife thought I was mad, especially when she came in the garage and found the first mock ups!
dash
I decided to totally disregard my wife's concerns and started taking moulds so I could make the parts in carbon, I was very happy with the final result... still a long way to go with more lacquer on the current finished parts and some bucks and moulds for the drivers side.
V weave isn't perfect and it needs a proper flat and final coat before fitting!
I also decided to make some major changes to the mechanics as I got fed up with having limited wheel choice due to the Noble unique offset and ford PCD... so I decided to machine the uprights to take a much larger wheel bearing and moved it inside the upright.... with a mix of hubs and wheel bearings this allowed me to fit BMW M5 wheels straight on.
I now have a choice from thousands of different wheel designs that will bolt straight on
My choice of wheel is for road 11x19 rear and 9.5x19 front with as big a dish wheel I could find.... The road wheels are really deliberately aggressive with the offsets and as such so for the track I have gone for custom made 10x18 rear and 8.5x18 front Braid with as big a dish as they could do on and 5mm more offset to bring them under the arch a little more.
Edited by andygtt on Wednesday 24th July 10:02
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