Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

Poll: Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

Total Members Polled: 867

No: 488
Yes because of the IMS: 65
Yes because of scored bores: 91
Haven't bought one because of known faults: 183
Yes because of D Chunk failure: 9
Re-built prior to purchase, not sure why?: 44
Author
Discussion

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Saturday 14th January 2012
quotequote all
A very interesting and informative post Baz. Regards your frustration on negative feedback, I am sure that 99% of people welcome and appreciate your advice on here.

There are always those who will think you have ulterior motives, there is nothing you can do about that.

Its helpful that you have given us a number (100+ rebuilds pa). That is higher than I had imagined.

Keep it up!

MTR

marky911

4,417 posts

218 months

Saturday 14th January 2012
quotequote all
Wow! Well into three figures per year!

I keep looking at 996 C4Ss as I'm getting impatient in my 964 search, but this thread always brings me back down to earth with a bump. Jeez!

<runs off to look for new sources of 964s for sale>

Would just like to add, it's good to have information posted from the people who actually deal with these engines first hand. I don't mean information such as figures above but, actually remedies and preventative measures. Well done Baz. I always read with interest.

uktrailmonster

4,827 posts

199 months

Saturday 14th January 2012
quotequote all
marky911 said:
Wow! Well into three figures per year!

I keep looking at 996 C4Ss
If you're that concerned about it, just buy one that Baz (or Autofarm etc) has already rebuilt. There are plenty around too, which itself is a bit of a clue.

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

216 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
Another statistic to add to the pile, just dropped off a 3.4 996 motor to the good folks at Hartech . . . . At the moment it looks like it's "just" a cracked 1-3 cylinder head, that’s introduced lots of oil into the cooling system on a 996 I've just got in, so at a minimum, it’s a head repair, pressure test and a full strip and rebuild of the rest of the core.

If they have time, maybe they could pop picks of the damage and rebuild onto this thread as an indication of what’s involved (happy for them to do this, if they can smile )

Cathles

1 posts

146 months

Monday 30th January 2012
quotequote all
I have just experienced ims failure on my April 05 reg 997 which I have owned from new, been Porsche dealer serviced throughout and had less than 20K mileage. Porsche gb nor Porsche dealer interested in admitting the existence of this fault. Said I should have purchased warranty and said as car 6.5 years old not their problem. I am considering taking legal action to recover £14.5K cost of recycled engine which has Ben fitted by Porsche main dealer. Has any one any experience or knowledge of a porsche owner taking legal action for a similar experience?

Cathles

hartech

1,929 posts

216 months

Tuesday 31st January 2012
quotequote all
Apart from one case when an owner who happened to be a trained solicitor used to taking cases to Court (who had a problem with a dealer supplied car almost as soon as he bought it - that was probably present when he bought it) - I know of no one else who has ever won a case.

Your claim would be too small for a small claims Court and our law allows appeals to a higher Court and as a result - wealthy buisnesses can appeal while running up increasing costs and often stretch out a claim for 10 years before resolution - at which point you may have to pay their costs if you lose.

I doubt you could win - even if you saw the whole process through - sorry!

A better option is always to seek a contribution or take the car elsewhere (as this fault can be repaired on and engine of that mileage for a lot less than half that cost).

Baz

Gary11

4,162 posts

200 months

Tuesday 31st January 2012
quotequote all
Cathles said:
I have just experienced ims failure on my April 05 reg 997 which I have owned from new, been Porsche dealer serviced throughout and had less than 20K mileage. Porsche gb nor Porsche dealer interested in admitting the existence of this fault. Said I should have purchased warranty and said as car 6.5 years old not their problem. I am considering taking legal action to recover £14.5K cost of recycled engine which has Ben fitted by Porsche main dealer. Has any one any experience or knowledge of a porsche owner taking legal action for a similar experience?

Cathles
A perfect example of the random failure that typifies these units 1 owner from new low miles OPC maintained,just plain unaceptable bad engineering.Another stat for the forum!

uktrailmonster

4,827 posts

199 months

Tuesday 31st January 2012
quotequote all
Cathles said:
I have just experienced ims failure on my April 05 reg 997 which I have owned from new, been Porsche dealer serviced throughout and had less than 20K mileage. Porsche gb nor Porsche dealer interested in admitting the existence of this fault. Said I should have purchased warranty and said as car 6.5 years old not their problem.
Cathles
That's a really poor effort from Porsche considering you are the original owner who lined their pockets and have maintained the car in their official dealer network throughout. I could understand them turning away a used car with several owners and a patchy history, but this is not how you retain loyal customers! Out of interest did they ever advise you to take out the warranty at any point along the way? It's not fair that you should have to rely on a warranty to cover their slack engineering either.



Waitforme

1,182 posts

163 months

Tuesday 31st January 2012
quotequote all
Cathles said:
I have just experienced ims failure on my April 05 reg 997 which I have owned from new, been Porsche dealer serviced throughout and had less than 20K mileage. Porsche gb nor Porsche dealer interested in admitting the existence of this fault. Said I should have purchased warranty and said as car 6.5 years old not their problem. I am considering taking legal action to recover £14.5K cost of recycled engine which has Ben fitted by Porsche main dealer. Has any one any experience or knowledge of a porsche owner taking legal action for a similar experience?

Cathles
Shocking, this is an inherent design flaw with this engine and as such Porsche owe it to their customers to lend a sympathetic ear.
How you get a more cast iron case than this for some ex gratia help I can't imagine, 1 owner, full OPC SH, low miles and a wrecked engine.
I'd get a sandwich board made for the roof of my car detailing the position and get it towed to their most prestigious dealership and park it outside.

Perhaps PGB would take an interest then.

DanoS4

863 posts

193 months

Saturday 4th February 2012
quotequote all
Sooooo....... as somebody looking to get into a 996 in the near future, (and reading this, amongst other threads) my understanding is this:

996s suffer from the issues highlighted in the poll.
The issues (one or more, but predominantly) focus around the IMS failure, or bore score.
Not a case of if, but more so when, particularly with respect to the bore score. And the older the car/higher the mileage, the more chance of this happening...

With this in mind, as a potential purchaser, you have several options:-

1. Buy an example according to your budget and risk it.
2. Buy an example according to your budget and purchase a 3rd party warranty that specialises in these issues.
3. Buy an example according to your budget and put a BIG pot of savings to one side for the "what if" scenario.
4. Buy an example that has had all the work done. It will cost a bit more money (probably), but will last the duration (hopefully!)
5. Buy an example according that has had all the work done AND purchase a 3rd party warranty that specialises in these issues.
6. Buy an example according to your budget that has been fettled and put a BIG pot of savings to one side for the "what if" scenario ie don't continue with the warranty?

Does that cover it?

Oh, and has it put me off looking at a 996? Honestly? Not really, but I AM going to go into this with my eye WIDE open.
FWIW, I'm not a noobie to this type of thing - I braved owning an Audi S4 Avant (Bi-turbo): the one with the chocolate turbos (well, oil cooler pipes)...... we're talking the same sort of money to repair.....

Correct?

Dan

(oh and my sympathies go out to those who've had painful/costly experiences)

Edited by DanoS4 on Saturday 4th February 15:22

96Turbo

1,709 posts

164 months

Saturday 4th February 2012
quotequote all
DanoS4 said:
Sooooo....... as somebody looking to get into a 996 in the near future, (and reading this, amongst other threads) my understanding is this:

996s suffer from the issues highlighted in the poll.
The issues (one or more, but predominantly) focus around the IMS failure, or bore score.
Not a case of if, but more so when, particularly with respect to the bore score. And the older the car/higher the mileage, the more chance of this happening...

With this in mind, as a potential purchaser, you have several options:-

1. Buy an example according to your budget and risk it.
2. Buy an example according to your budget and purchase a 3rd party warranty that specialises in these issues.
3. Buy an example according to your budget and put a BIG pot of savings to one side for the "what if" scenario.
4. Buy an example that has had all the work done. It will cost a bit more money (probably), but will last the duration (hopefully!)
5. Buy an example according that has had all the work done AND purchase a 3rd party warranty that specialises in these issues.
6. Buy an example according to your budget and put a BIG pot of savings to one side for the "what if" scenario.

Does that cover it?

Oh, and has it put me off looking at a 996? Honestly? Not really, but I AM going to go into this with my eye WIDE open.
FWIW, I'm not a noobie to this type of thing - I braved owning an Audi S4 Avant (Bi-turbo): the one with the chocolate turbos (well, oil cooler pipes)...... we're talking the same sort of money to repair.....

Correct?

Dan

(oh and my sympathies go out to those who've had painful/costly experiences)
Whats the difference between 3. and 6. ?

Gary11

4,162 posts

200 months

Saturday 4th February 2012
quotequote all
IMO Bore scoring and "d" chunk are sadly not mileage related,I see almost as many low mileage failures.
G
Baz will no doubt give a truer reflection.

DanoS4

863 posts

193 months

Saturday 4th February 2012
quotequote all
96Turbo said:
Whats the difference between 3. and 6. ?
oops - the difference is that now I'm awake properly, I've changed #6 biggrin

hartech

1,929 posts

216 months

Sunday 5th February 2012
quotequote all
"D" chunk is largely a fatigue failure so seems to occur mainly after 60K towards 120K.

Cylinder cracks start first and lead to "D" chunk shortly afterwards - so similarly mileage related.

Scoring is limited mainly to 3.6 and 3.8 engines (some Cayman S as well) and seems to be after 30K although some as low as 15K). If an engine doesn't score it will become a candidate for cracks or "D" chunking later as before.

True some engines manage 150K before failure but by then the cylinders are oval by around 12 thou (0.3mm) so are pretty knackered anyway.

I think it is mainly because the engines are designed closer to their limit and therefore some owners driving style - possibly coupled with some potentially inferior Lokasil preforms - seems to determine whether it is the former or the latter.

Baz


DanoS4

863 posts

193 months

Sunday 5th February 2012
quotequote all
So is it fair to say that these "cheaper" 996s (up to £13k) with the 3.4 engines will primarily fail from IMS, not necessarily the scoring or the D chunk?
Whereas the 3.6 is more prone to the latter complaints?

The sad thing is that it seems like a TOTAL minefield for the budding Porsche purchaser. Both Autotrader and Pistonheads adverts don't tend to mention any remedial work carried out on the cars, so you can guarantee that it will need doing.

Personally, whilst it doesn't overly bother me (as I'd do my homework), you can't help but draw comparisons to chucking the money straight into the bin.....
I'd want to ideally (a) keep mine for a good 3 years, and (b) do my best to use it as a daily driver.....

Something that I'm not now sure is possible unless you spend very good money for the car. The phrase "it's cheap for a reason" springs to mind...

doubts? biggrin

DAn

Magic919

14,126 posts

200 months

Sunday 5th February 2012
quotequote all
DanoS4 said:
Stuff
Why not start a thread to better discuss this? You'll get a wider audience.

DanoS4

863 posts

193 months

Sunday 5th February 2012
quotequote all
My apologies for taking the thread off topic.

ScienceTeacher

408 posts

184 months

Monday 6th February 2012
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Odd. Baz takes apart two of these engines every week. His post above is very clear as is the literature on the hartech website, complete with a host of pictures...
I expect my IMS to go at some point, but carefully driven with a regular oil change to clear swarf and I hope it lasts a few more years. I'm on 50,000 miles now, but it's 14 years old!

uktrailmonster

4,827 posts

199 months

Monday 6th February 2012
quotequote all
DanoS4 said:
4. Buy an example that has had all the work done. It will cost a bit more money (probably), but will last the duration (hopefully!)
This is what I did, bought one with a recent full Hartech rebuild at 51K miles (bores were scored) and I don't worry about it at all - engine may as well be brand new except with the bugs fixed. Yes you pay a bit more, but nowhere near as much as the work would have cost. You might have to be patient, but there are plenty out there. Autofarm rebuilds would also be a safe bet. Otherwise you need a specialist warranty like the Hartech scheme or extended OPC warranty if you like being bent over at service time.

ScienceTeacher

408 posts

184 months

Monday 6th February 2012
quotequote all
Indeed the D chunk did start with 3.4s as they are older. D chunking is to a large extent a product of use. However, in relative terms, like for like they are less likely to score and oval and crack leading to a D chunk than 3.6 and 3.8 units. This is my clear understanding, anyway. P7 on Buyers' Guide 5 seems to support this and it is variously throughout the guides. Do explain if I've misunderstood.