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mollytherocker

11,110 posts

95 months

[news] 
Thursday 8th March 2012 quote quote all
cmoose said:
I agree - I don't think reliability concerns have had much impact on values of 996s or 997s. It's all about big production numbers and the fact that none are yet old enough to really be considered classics.
I dont agree with this. Production numbers will of course have an effect, but I reckon the 'perceived' engine issues are the main cause.

Without this, the 996 would start at 15k for a high mileage car.

Its purely academic of course, we are where we are. But for me, its about the perception of reduced quality, this affected Mercedes over exactly the same period. Coincidence?

MTR

cmoose

25,694 posts

115 months

[news] 
Thursday 8th March 2012 quote quote all
mollytherocker said:
I dont agree with this. Production numbers will of course have an effect, but I reckon the 'perceived' engine issues are the main cause.

Without this, the 996 would start at 15k for a high mileage car.

Its purely academic of course, we are where we are. But for me, its about the perception of reduced quality, this affected Mercedes over exactly the same period. Coincidence?

MTR
Not a coincidence, but still not what you are thinking. For starters, all premium brands have reduced the real world pricing of their cars over the past 20 years. Adjust the list price of an 80s BMW, Merc or Porsche for inflation and you'll find they were roughly twice as expensive then compared to today. This has nothing to do with perceived quality and everything to do with cheaper list prices and higher volumes. The vast majority of buyers are clueless as to the degradation of quality or reliability, perceived or otherwise.

Moreover, if you think about the implications of a £15k basement for the 996, you'll quickly realise it's not plausible, which in turn underlines how reliability concerns don't really factor. If the 996 was worth 30 per cent more, you'd have to push up the rest of the water cooled 911 back catalogue proportionately. If the 996 was worth more, the early 997 would have to be worth more, as would the later 997s. And ultimately, they built far too many of these things for the residuals to be strong. Why pay anything near list for a two year old 997 when you can walk into a dealer and have one in a few months?

And if a two year old 997 has to come at a large discount, a four year old one with the older body style has to be much cheaper again, and in turn so does a six year old one. Repeat and rinse for late 996.2s, early 996.2s, late 996.1s etc.

The bottom line is that the 996 was mass produced and is largely unloved. And that's why it's not worth much. A reputation for stellar reliability wouldn't change that.

mollytherocker

11,110 posts

95 months

[news] 
Thursday 8th March 2012 quote quote all
cmoose said:
mollytherocker said:
I dont agree with this. Production numbers will of course have an effect, but I reckon the 'perceived' engine issues are the main cause.

Without this, the 996 would start at 15k for a high mileage car.

Its purely academic of course, we are where we are. But for me, its about the perception of reduced quality, this affected Mercedes over exactly the same period. Coincidence?

MTR
Not a coincidence, but still not what you are thinking. For starters, all premium brands have reduced the real world pricing of their cars over the past 20 years. Adjust the list price of an 80s BMW, Merc or Porsche for inflation and you'll find they were roughly twice as expensive then compared to today. This has nothing to do with perceived quality and everything to do with cheaper list prices and higher volumes. The vast majority of buyers are clueless as to the degradation of quality or reliability, perceived or otherwise.

Moreover, if you think about the implications of a £15k basement for the 996, you'll quickly realise it's not plausible, which in turn underlines how reliability concerns don't really factor. If the 996 was worth 30 per cent more, you'd have to push up the rest of the water cooled 911 back catalogue proportionately. If the 996 was worth more, the early 997 would have to be worth more, as would the later 997s. And ultimately, they built far too many of these things for the residuals to be strong. Why pay anything near list for a two year old 997 when you can walk into a dealer and have one in a few months?

And if a two year old 997 has to come at a large discount, a four year old one with the older body style has to be much cheaper again, and in turn so does a six year old one. Repeat and rinse for late 996.2s, early 996.2s, late 996.1s etc.

The bottom line is that the 996 was mass produced and is largely unloved. And that's why it's not worth much. A reputation for stellar reliability wouldn't change that.
Certainly some good points there, but I still maintain that the 996 and 997 would have retained more value had it not been for the engine woes. How much more is impossible (And pointless) to calculate.

Engine worries (rightly or wrongly) still put buyers off and that has a direct affect on values. But you are right in that production numbers are to blame too.

MTR

hartech

1,602 posts

103 months

[news] 
Thursday 8th March 2012 quote quote all
I agree with many of those cost/value comments.

Porsche made far more cars in the last decade than in the preceeding years and so there are simply many more out there for sale second hand than there ever were before. Also more manufacturers are now making sporty higher performance cars - so there is even more choice. Finally - recession or not - we are all better off than most people were then and can afford and desire newer more fashionable cars than we used to be able to own or aspire to.

All this depresses used car prices.

There were always only just enough "Porsche enthusiasts" to mop up the small numbers on the used car market and as a result prices held and were difficult to compare - but in the last 15 years or so - not only has the increased number of used Porsches resulted in lower prices - but more owners are not from that "lifelong desire" group - but just fancy a sports car and know nothing of the engine problems that we enthusiasts have found out - and can compare prices on the Internet ranking them in cheapest to most expensive - so pressures are there to lower prices to sell a car.

All this is - IMHO - good because it has lowered the price "relatively" of cars that are actually much better products than the older examples - cheaper generally to run and more enjoyable to drive - so with some form of protection against the remote possibility of a rare engine failure - the cost (including cover for that risk) is still excellent value for money.

The only down side is caused by ignorance of the problem - when potential buyers puts all their money in a car they assumed would still be bullet proof (as they pretty well used to be) only to experience a failure that could cost as much as the car is worth when they don't have the resources to repair it and face almost a total loss.

This in my mind justifies our posts to explain about the problem, warn about the consequences and provide a reasonably priced solution and a warranty Plan that reduces engine rebuild prices to such a low cost (under that Plan) that really anyone should be able to afford it even if the worst happened. It empowers potential buyers with the knowledge so they can then choose to spend everything on what is a relatively inexpensive great Sports car (and risk the consequences), spend a little less (and keep some in reserve to cover an engine rebuild) or factor in the modest monthly payments to protect themselves if they were unlucky.

Remember also that still - the vast majority are perfectly OK and provide a great experience for thousands of buyers during their ownership.

Baz

Thundersports

172 posts

31 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Hello i've been lurking on this site for years and have now registered. I'm in the market for a 911 or maybe a TVR. My budget is 10-15k and of course a 996 fits nicely in to this bracket. I have seen sub 10k cars at dealers and have been tempted as I would assume a engine failure within the first 3 months would be at the cost of the dealer? Some of these inexpensive cars have supported S/H and less than 100k mileage I value your advice on this........
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Gary11

3,879 posts

87 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Thundersports said:
Hello i've been lurking on this site for years and have now registered. I'm in the market for a 911 or maybe a TVR. My budget is 10-15k and of course a 996 fits nicely in to this bracket. I have seen sub 10k cars at dealers and have been tempted as I would assume a engine failure within the first 3 months would be at the cost of the dealer? Some of these inexpensive cars have supported S/H and less than 100k mileage I value your advice on this........
People wonder why the residuals are so low.

Thundersports

172 posts

31 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Gary11 said:
People wonder why the residuals are so low.
Sorry I don't understand that comment?

Gary11

3,879 posts

87 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Thundersports said:
Sorry I don't understand that comment?
Just the way you feel its moraly OK to inflict a problem such as a blown engine on a dealer selling a car in good faith that was fine at point of sale, rather than accept its inherrent potential to implode by design (or BUY a warranty) and may happen hence the low price eyes open,I as a dealer would counter claim for all my worth.
Quite a trolly type comment really on whats been a good thread.
A "I dont care I will just get the dealer to pay" isnt generaly really a nice way to go into a purchase regarding a known potential issue or post on a forum that you have spent a few pages reading aboutIMO.

Thundersports

172 posts

31 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Gary11 said:
Just the way you feel its moraly OK to inflict a problem such as a blown engine on a dealer selling a car in good faith that was fine at point of sale, rather than accept its inherrent potential to implode by design (or BUY a warranty) and may happen hence the low price eyes open,I as a dealer would counter claim for all my worth.
Quite a trolly type comment really on whats been a good thread.
A "I dont care I will just get the dealer to pay" isnt generaly really a nice way to go into a purchase regarding a known potential issue or post on a forum that you have spent a few pages reading aboutIMO.
With all due respect you and I know some dealers aren't as honest as others. If a 996 I bought from a dealer was to let-go after only a couple of weeks after purchase i'd be inclined to suspect the potencial problem was present when I bought the car hence i'd want it put right. And yes I would go in "eyes open" I looked at 10 911s before purchasing my last one. If your a dealer I assumed a car becoming faulty shortly after purchase and putting it right is one of the known obligations?

cmoose

25,694 posts

115 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Gary11 said:
Thundersports said:
Sorry I don't understand that comment?
Just the way you feel its moraly OK to inflict a problem such as a blown engine on a dealer selling a car in good faith that was fine at point of sale, rather than accept its inherrent potential to implode by design (or BUY a warranty) and may happen hence the low price eyes open,I as a dealer would counter claim for all my worth.
Quite a trolly type comment really on whats been a good thread.
A "I dont care I will just get the dealer to pay" isnt generaly really a nice way to go into a purchase regarding a known potential issue or post on a forum that you have spent a few pages reading aboutIMO.
It's a tricky one. If the dealer has an obligation (and I'm not saying dealers have the obligation, I'm far from schooled in the details), then it's up to the dealer to decide which cars he wants to sell / how he wants to expose himself.

If the dealer knows his eggs, he'll know these cars are risky. Punters, on the other hand, do not deal in these cars daily. You could argue they should school themselves - certainly any enthusiast should. But most punters aren't enthusiasts or experts. So I'd have some sympathy with Joe Schmo who just wanted a 911 without being an enthusiast, bought one from a reputable dealer for a healthy market rate and had it implode a month or two later.

Thundersports

172 posts

31 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Gary11 said:
Just the way you feel its moraly OK to inflict a problem such as a blown engine on a dealer selling a car in good faith that was fine at point of sale, rather than accept its inherrent potential to implode by design (or BUY a warranty) and may happen hence the low price eyes open,I as a dealer would counter claim for all my worth.
Quite a trolly type comment really on whats been a good thread.
A "I dont care I will just get the dealer to pay" isnt generaly really a nice way to go into a purchase regarding a known potential issue or post on a forum that you have spent a few pages reading aboutIMO.
And to clarify i'm far from trolling I asked a reasonable question I hope I don't have this situation of engine failure. My question was really should I buy private or dealer the pros of buying from a dealer would be the back up afterwards. A dealers car you would assume would have been thouroughly checked so they wouldn't have the worry of any comebacks. You saying you would counter claim for all your worth; can you tell us the name of your dealership?

Edited by Thundersports on Friday 9th March 19:02

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

103 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Thundersports said:
Gary11 said:
Just the way you feel its moraly OK to inflict a problem such as a blown engine on a dealer selling a car in good faith that was fine at point of sale, rather than accept its inherrent potential to implode by design (or BUY a warranty) and may happen hence the low price eyes open,I as a dealer would counter claim for all my worth.
Quite a trolly type comment really on whats been a good thread.
A "I dont care I will just get the dealer to pay" isnt generaly really a nice way to go into a purchase regarding a known potential issue or post on a forum that you have spent a few pages reading aboutIMO.
And to clarify i'm far from trolling I asked a reasonable question I hope I don't have this situation of engine failure. My question was really should I buy private or dealer the pros of buying from a dealer would be the back up afterwards. A dealers car you would assume would have been thourghly checked so they wouldn't have the worry of any comebacks.
I'd suggest buying on condition first and vendor second, after all you can always buy a warranty to cover a private car.

Having said that, I know of a 996 which has a freshly rebuilt Hartech motor that will be for sale in a little over a month smile

Gary11

3,879 posts

87 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Thundersports said:
And to clarify i'm far from trolling I asked a reasonable question I hope I don't have this situation of engine failure. My question was really should I buy private or dealer the pros of buying from a dealer would be the back up afterwards. A dealers car you would assume would have been thouroughly checked so they wouldn't have the worry of any comebacks. You saying you would counter claim for all your worth; can you tell us the name of your dealership?

Edited by Thundersports on Friday 9th March 19:02
IMO it was harsh to infer you dont need to buy a warranty or worry to much as you feel if an engine let go you would merely expect the (perhaps small indy)dealer to pay,its common sense and easy for any one to read about and familiarise oneself with potential issues,it was the way it was phrased rather then the legal rammifications,the problem is with many of these failures they are random follow no real path and can happen at any time and were probably fine at point odf sale displaying no symtoms,in this situation with no extra warranty armed with knowledge off of threads like this and listening to Hartec imo it actually falls more at the manufacturers door.
Thats all from me thanks for your reply.
driving

Edited by Gary11 on Friday 9th March 22:24

Gary11

3,879 posts

87 months

[news] 
Friday 9th March 2012 quote quote all
Thundersports said:
With all due respect you and I know some dealers aren't as honest as others. If a 996 I bought from a dealer was to let-go after only a couple of weeks after purchase i'd be inclined to suspect the potencial problem was present when I bought the car hence i'd want it put right. And yes I would go in "eyes open" I looked at 10 911s before purchasing my last one. If your a dealer I assumed a car becoming faulty shortly after purchase and putting it right is one of the known obligations?
Depends if its a known Manufacturing defect with documented failures and is deemed to be unfit for purpose (ie low mileage failure all history in opc network) then its a grey area.

hartech

1,602 posts

103 months

[news] 
Saturday 10th March 2012 quote quote all
It is a tricky one because although a dealer is reasonably responsible for exiting faults at the point of sale - they are not for general deterioration of a car if it is reasonably consistent with the age, mileage and the fact that it is now say half, a third or even a quarter of the price it was when it was new.

In this scenario a fault would therefore be the failure and not so much the wear and tear leading up to it and if it was a "known fault" it would be reasonable for the law to assume everyone knew about its potential and therefore had already factored it into the the risk of buying.

The main point is if a dealer wants to fight and appeal - he can delay reconciling the outcome for months or years, accumulate costs on both sides while his car is depreciating with age and probably deteriorating with being left somewhere in bits and if the owner loses he pays both costs.

Therefore IMHO you either buy from a recognised dealer who values their reputation enough to only sell a "good car" and help if you have a problem that is rare but could happen at any time to any car of that design. OR you buy a nice looking one privately and put the money saved towards a warranty from a reliable source to cover the repair cost if you were unlucky - or just stash it somewhere and use it if you don't want to trust the warranty route.

In my experience of our customers various situations - even some well known specialist dealers can be surprisingly reluctant to offer any help (if a typical failure occurs soon after the sale) while some others a extremely supportive.

The cost of most "typical" potential failures is well higher than any profit margin in a sales car - so my advice is always to accept a contribution and top up (if you can get one) on the grounds that you are better off than without any support.

Usually if you and the dealer are reasonable - and in some way share the consequences of the problem that is really not either of their fault - it can be managed better and if either decide to be litigious it descends into chaos in which no one really benefits.

All Hartech sales cars are covered by the sales of goods act (referring to our "engineers report", our Maintenance Plan (for free labour for a period) and a reduced monthly payment to stay on it - apart from which our reputation is important enough to us to do what we reasonably should if a problem of this type ever occured. it would also be looked after properly on the plan (and we have several of these cars on the plan that have reached 100 to 150K OK so far) although neither we or anyone else (not even Mr Porsche) could guarantee that none of the models affected may suddenly fail in one of the typical well known weak areas.

Baz

Thundersports

172 posts

31 months

[news] 
Saturday 10th March 2012 quote quote all
Thanks you for your replies. It does seem a little bit of a awkward area as a buyer with 15k max budget do I buy a sub 10k car which leaves me with 5k for a potencial re-build. I may get lucky and not have the problem or spend 15k and get a better car which perhaps for that money has had a rebuild but at the risk of a failure then a headache to finance a rebuild and a early 996 which stands me in 20k!

I'm very cautious on this because I bought a 1985 3.2 8 years ago which seized 2 weeks after I bought it. Dispite doing alot of homework and knowing my way round a car and viewing 10 before buying my one, the absolute heartache etc I went through having this happen makes me very cautious! the reason my casrefully selected 2 owner car seized; some prick had repaired the scavenge pipe between the engine and baulkhead with a plumbers joint, so when I gave it some beans over a prolonged time it suffered oil starvation and seized. You can't see this pipe properly without dropping the engine and why bodge it when the pipe is only £150!

DanoS4

376 posts

80 months

[news] 
Sunday 11th March 2012 quote quote all
FWIW, I'm in the same boat. Got about the same budget too.

I'm toying with getting a bargain-basement 996 C2 for the same reasons you've stated. Plus, as has been intimated, the motor trade don't seem to like these models for the well-documented reasons.
This obviously has a knock-on effect to when I sell the car on - it will be worth a fraction of feck all. Why spend more than you really need to (as a virgin-Porsche owner).....

Or do you throw all your money into a better car at the higher end of the budget and hopefully not have any issues?

Tough call.

Gary11

3,879 posts

87 months

[news] 
Sunday 11th March 2012 quote quote all
DanoS4 said:
FWIW, I'm in the same boat. Got about the same budget too.

I'm toying with getting a bargain-basement 996 C2 for the same reasons you've stated. Plus, as has been intimated, the motor trade don't seem to like these models for the well-documented reasons.
This obviously has a knock-on effect to when I sell the car on - it will be worth a fraction of feck all. Why spend more than you really need to (as a virgin-Porsche owner).....

Or do you throw all your money into a better car at the higher end of the budget and hopefully not have any issues?

Tough call.
FWIW the problems show no respect for price,age or type of dealer your buying from (I know of many OPC purchased failures),what your looking for is a good warranty and as well looked after a car as possible.
I would for security buy in the middle of the market have a good PPI and let Baz work his magic on the engine.
G

cmoose

25,694 posts

115 months

[news] 
Sunday 11th March 2012 quote quote all
DanoS4 said:
FWIW, I'm in the same boat. Got about the same budget too.

I'm toying with getting a bargain-basement 996 C2 for the same reasons you've stated. Plus, as has been intimated, the motor trade don't seem to like these models for the well-documented reasons.
This obviously has a knock-on effect to when I sell the car on - it will be worth a fraction of feck all. Why spend more than you really need to (as a virgin-Porsche owner).....

Or do you throw all your money into a better car at the higher end of the budget and hopefully not have any issues?

Tough call.
I think the best approach, if it's within budget, it to buy something towards the lower end of the price scale for early 996s (not the real dogs, just somein the bottom half of the price range) and assume a rebuild may be necessary - ie have that cash earmarked.

Buying a car that's already had a rebuild is attractive, as you'll probably end with a lower overall outlay compared with buying a 996 and then having it rebuilt. But if anything goes wrong with a rebuilt engine, I suspect you'll be in a much, much stronger position if it was you who commissioned the rebuild.

You'll also know exactly what work was done. Buy a car with a rebuilt engine and you may be relying on the seller to provide all the details of the work done - the rebuilder may not feel at liberty to share details of work carried out for another customer etc.

I guess the other alternative is to buy a 996 with a blown engine for pennies and have it rebuilt.

Globs

13,131 posts

117 months

[news] 
Sunday 11th March 2012 quote quote all
cmoose said:
I guess the other alternative is to buy a 996 with a blown engine for pennies and have it rebuilt.
Do they ever come up like this though? - I have never seen one, where would you look?
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