Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

[uktrailmonster]

mattman said:

can they really get any lower?

Not really, but they can get very pricey to keep running if you buy a lemon. It can be a bit like buying an unprofitable company for say a token £1. The purchase price is not really that relevant, it's the future running costs that will dominate. I'd still do it though if the inspection doesn't show any serious issues looming.

[tricky360]

Iam thinking the same thing lately , I have £ 20k ,do I push the budget out a couple more k and get an early 997 which I like the interior and can be put on a dateless plate and look current
Or buy a 996 for about £12-15k and have cash left over for issues! If they arise

[LordHaveMurci]

tricky360 said:

Iam thinking the same thing lately , I have £ 20k ,do I push the budget out a couple more k and get an early 997 which I like the interior and can be put on a dateless plate and look current
Or buy a 996 for about £12-15k and have cash left over for issues! If they arise

997 still has plenty of depreciation left in it I would have thought, a decent 996 is probably near the bottom of the curve now. A 996 C4S may even go up if you're really lucky?

[Globs]

LordHaveMurci said:

tricky360 said:

Iam thinking the same thing lately , I have £ 20k ,do I push the budget out a couple more k and get an early 997 which I like the interior and can be put on a dateless plate and look current
Or buy a 996 for about £12-15k and have cash left over for issues! If they arise

997 still has plenty of depreciation left in it I would have thought, a decent 996 is probably near the bottom of the curve now. A 996 C4S may even go up if you're really lucky?

The future:

1) More expensive fuel
2) More speed cameras
3) Higher road tax
4) Higher insurance
5) More expensive parts
6) Rising unemployment
7) Banks falling over

So yes, there is room for prices to go down, and quite a bit too.

[uktrailmonster]

tricky360 said:

Iam thinking the same thing lately , I have £ 20k ,do I push the budget out a couple more k and get an early 997 which I like the interior and can be put on a dateless plate and look current
Or buy a 996 for about £12-15k and have cash left over for issues! If they arise

depends how important looking "current" is for your ego. If you put a private plate on a 996 then 99% of the population will think it's current and the other 1% won't give a toss.

[mollytherocker]

uktrailmonster said:

depends how important looking "current" is for your ego. If you put a private plate on a 996 then 99% of the population will think it's current and the other 1% won't give a toss.

I agree, but I would swap your 2 percentages around.

[uktrailmonster]

mollytherocker said:

I agree, but I would swap your 2 percentages around.

As the owner of a 996 with a private plate, my own personal experience is that most people (who actually make a comment) presume it's a current car. Especially when it's just been polished! Even had a garage attendant ask it it was a 991. But owning a car that looks current is not something I personally care about at all, just an observation.

[Sallen43]

Just brought my first 911. Having worked in the auto trade for 20 years I can't get over how amazing this car is.
Apparently its the least desired of all 911's, being a 996 Carrera 2wd, manual in silver. If this is really the case I can't wait till I upgrade to a more desirable one. This car is AMAZING. 11 years old with 70k and full history, it drives like a new car, no wear and tear and the exhaust (Porsche sports option system) is just superb. I purchased the car knowing that some people have a bad experience with IMS / RMS, but this car has had an RMS 3k ago and I don't intend to worry about it going bang.
Excuse me if I'm a little excited, but this machine is just awesome. :-)

[mollytherocker]

Sallen43 said:

Just brought my first 911. Having worked in the auto trade for 20 years I can't get over how amazing this car is.
Apparently its the least desired of all 911's, being a 996 Carrera 2wd, manual in silver. If this is really the case I can't wait till I upgrade to a more desirable one. This car is AMAZING. 11 years old with 70k and full history, it drives like a new car, no wear and tear and the exhaust (Porsche sports option system) is just superb. I purchased the car knowing that some people have a bad experience with IMS / RMS, but this car has had an RMS 3k ago and I don't intend to worry about it going bang.
Excuse me if I'm a little excited, but this machine is just awesome. :-)

Why not post up some pics on a new thread. You maybe tempting fate on this one!

[Rubinski]

I second Sallen43, i too have just gone all out on my first 911 and realised the boy hood dream :-)

I've had a Boxster S, a BMW Z4 3.0 (sorry) and most recently a Cayman S... but having now moved into my 911 i have fallen in love with driving again, and am always looking for an excuse to head out for a spin.

Also, i read many articles pre-purchase discussing which options are a must and which are a nice to have... spent ages looking for the right spec... not really been into loud noisy exhausts, but having now got the Sport Exhaust with Chrono Plus i can see what the fuss is about, truly awesome and strangely i think it makes for a more rewarding drive by adding that extra sensory pleasure :-)

Love it love it love it :-)

(Still undecided on what to do about extended warranty though....)

[roofrack996]

I am not lucky enough to own both just a pretty standard 1999 996 C2 which I would not sell for love nor money. It does make me think that the people with an interest in all this fall in to a few common categories:

1. The aspiring Porsche owner who has a boyhood dream to fulfill (uncle probably had one).
2. The car enthusiast who has owned a few marque and wants to experience a Porsche.
3. The (smug) 993 owner who is (rightly) proud of his classic air-cooled Porsche.
4. The bitten owner who has just found out the cost of repairing a M96 engine.
5. The troll who just likes stirring it and spends more time on the net than driving.
6. The prospective owner who would like values to go (even) lower before committing.

Oh and,

7. The genuine enthusiast who has devoured pages of text and countless trips to specialists and decided that they are bloody good value for what you get and worth the (perceived)risk.

I am not sure how much more we all need to go over this, there is no real answer, mainly because car ownership is only in part a rational activity. It has been too long for Porsche to suddenly own up to intrinsic faults, despite some being pretty evident, and there will always be uncertainties to cloud the issue, including:

- Running hard from cold
- Over-revving (measurable)
- Maintenance schedules (we are not all conscientious)

I would also point out that these were expensive cars new and, whatever your thoughts about perceived quality and reliability, the majority of them are now on their second or third owner so will have lost more in depreciation than any repair will cost.

It is worth remembering that if you spent 15k on a good'un and it went bang a week later by the time you had sorted it out you would still have a car that is more than a match for most things in the 25-30k bracket (age aside).

It is also worth thinking about who has benefited out of all this:

- Porsche (sales unaffected and lots of user-led development)
- Porsche Dealers (warranty work)
- Indies (more work)
- Later owners (they pick up a very under priced car)

All in all a less than perfect situation but depending on your approach one that can be immensely enjoyable.

All the best.

[Globs]

roofrack996 said:

4. The bitten owner who has just found out the cost of repairing a M96 or M97 engine.

EFA, yes, they screwed up on the M97 too.

[mollytherocker]

Globs said:

EFA, yes, they screwed up on the M97 too.

In many ways, this is the real frustration. They had 10 years to sort these issues out and could have done at a minimal cost. All they did, was introduce minor revisions to the IMS. They could have sorted the 3 main issues easily! A small family owned garage in Bolton has managed it with just a few people!!

I just cant get my head around it.

[roofrack996]

I imagine they did look at it, with the failure rate data which we don't have, and thought it was manageable. I also expect the engineers would have wanted to make more changes but were probably stifled by management concerned that this would undermine the product / brand.

As people on here have said before Porsche have kept resolutely quiet about it all, but what else could they do? Certainly not recall every single car. They would risk the business. Whether we like it or not this hardheadedness has dragged them from near bankruptcy to immense profit (and with some pretty nice cars on the way).

I should have put (smug) 993 / 996T / 996 RS / 996 GT3 owner on the previous post but would note that all but the first could only exist due to the presence of a market viable "base" models (boxster and 911).

We can all wring our hands at how good (generally taken to mean well engineered) the 993 was but I imagine to Porsche management they would look across the 996/7 product range and see it as a success.

People are still buying the cars which whatever we may think in part highlights that despite the issues they are worth it and at a higher level that Porsche's approach does work.

[fioran0]

there will have been someone in an office with a risk algorithim who calculated the "cost" of various actions. do nothing and subsidise engines for a while was obviously the cheapest since it was the protocol for many years.

[fioran0]

roofrack996 said:

People are still buying the cars which whatever we may think in part highlights that despite the issues they are worth it and at a higher level that Porsche's approach does work.

but people arent and havent been for many years. 911 sales have been in steady slide. infact solid reductions of on average 20% annually for the last 5 years for the 911 hides the rather worse fact that its been sliding for a lot longer with only a temporary blip for the year of the new 997 helping buck the trend.
the boxster and cayman are even worse, theres only been one year in the last 9 that they havent been sliding massively.

the cayenne is the only car for which there appears to be a global appetite in terms of numbers, slowly followed by the panamera. these make up 70% of all new porsche sales. in 2011 porsche sold twice as many 997s as it did boxster and cayman combined and yet it sold twice as many cayennes as it did 997s.

this puts much into perspective about both the cars themselves and the direction of the new ones.

[fioran0]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

absolutely, sadly its not the modern way though. when people joke about bean counters running everything they would do well to think about just how many decisions begin and end with numbers (and have nothing in between). its not the preserve of the auto industry either!!!

the worrying thing is that theres probably an algorithm that can calculate impact on brand perception and the engines didnt make a scratch
being less (or perhaps more) cynical, i suspect just most folks dont know or care and that importantly includes those who buy new cars from them.
id wager not many going in to buy a new porsche are the least bit interested.

[Sallen43]

Still no major malfunction. And still have the funds to fix an engine catastrophe twice for the price of a decent 993.
:-) loving the 11 year old machine.

[roofrack996]

"but people arent and havent been for many years. 911 sales have been in steady slide. infact solid reductions of on average 20% annually for the last 5 years for the 911 hides the rather worse fact that its been sliding for a lot longer with only a temporary blip for the year of the new 997 helping buck the trend."

I don't understand therefore why the production numbers have been steadily rising, someone must be buying them??

[mollytherocker]

roofrack996 said:

"but people arent and havent been for many years. 911 sales have been in steady slide. infact solid reductions of on average 20% annually for the last 5 years for the 911 hides the rather worse fact that its been sliding for a lot longer with only a temporary blip for the year of the new 997 helping buck the trend."

I don't understand therefore why the production numbers have been steadily rising, someone must be buying them??

The BRIC countries.