Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?
Poll: Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?
Total Members Polled: 867
Discussion
That link addresshttp://www.hartech.org/docs/buyers%20guide%20web%20format%20Jan%202012%20part%205.pdf does indeed feed to our full description of various problems including bore scoring but it is quite out of date now. For example where it says on page 40 that apart from the low temperature thermostat - there is little we can do to prevent bore scoring - we are in fact in the middle of research into a way we can hopefully reduce the possibility even further without stripping and rebuilding the engine (more later).
There is also the fact that various other problems have been identified, tested and sorted in the meantime. It is just difficult to do all this R&D work, race in a Porsche Championship and write about it at the same time.
Although getting out of date it does provide a lot of background for those interested.
We are still testing different piston coatings that we hope will one day find a suitable one that combined with a few other new advances will render Lokasil reliable - if not of course we already have the best alternative with Alloy Nikasil liners (and meanwhile steel liner replacement has been found wanting by many others that tried it).
We are also trying to sort out a problem of a ticking noise that can sometimes be piston slap (due to bore scoring), sometimes not and can be heard despite there being nothing wrong with the engine (sometimes even in a rebuilt one if it already had the problem). Made progress with the M97 engines and presently working on the M96 which is a similar problem but different layout.
Lots more ahead and still keeping at it - and will try and communicate progress when we can find time.
Baz
There is also the fact that various other problems have been identified, tested and sorted in the meantime. It is just difficult to do all this R&D work, race in a Porsche Championship and write about it at the same time.
Although getting out of date it does provide a lot of background for those interested.
We are still testing different piston coatings that we hope will one day find a suitable one that combined with a few other new advances will render Lokasil reliable - if not of course we already have the best alternative with Alloy Nikasil liners (and meanwhile steel liner replacement has been found wanting by many others that tried it).
We are also trying to sort out a problem of a ticking noise that can sometimes be piston slap (due to bore scoring), sometimes not and can be heard despite there being nothing wrong with the engine (sometimes even in a rebuilt one if it already had the problem). Made progress with the M97 engines and presently working on the M96 which is a similar problem but different layout.
Lots more ahead and still keeping at it - and will try and communicate progress when we can find time.
Baz
Owned a 52 996 till 40K and now own a 56 997with 36K. The 997 has just come back from Porsche wit a full clean bill of health (worse thing they could find was 7 ignitions in band 3) and the 996.2 ran perfectly until date of sale.
The figures on here prove engine failure is? I am a car paranoid person and can see that a significant few people who have entered engine failures here, compare these failures to the amount of 996 and 997s are about.
The fact is most people will only be arsed to post bad news, if there were a high ratio of engine failures this site would be inundated with moaning porsche owners, but it's not.
A friend of mine works in An OPC, he says in the 10yrs he has worked there he can only recall one major rebuild. I've been to his garage and there isn't any Porsches with engines out or owners running around irate with anger about their cream crackered motor.
I appreciate if a failure should happen it will cost a great deal of money to repair, but isn't this the case in any car?
The figures on here prove engine failure is? I am a car paranoid person and can see that a significant few people who have entered engine failures here, compare these failures to the amount of 996 and 997s are about.
The fact is most people will only be arsed to post bad news, if there were a high ratio of engine failures this site would be inundated with moaning porsche owners, but it's not.
A friend of mine works in An OPC, he says in the 10yrs he has worked there he can only recall one major rebuild. I've been to his garage and there isn't any Porsches with engines out or owners running around irate with anger about their cream crackered motor.
I appreciate if a failure should happen it will cost a great deal of money to repair, but isn't this the case in any car?
Bossitt said:
.....A friend of mine works in An OPC, he says in the 10yrs he has worked there he can only recall one major rebuild.....
For balance, I know someone (not really a friend) who works for a small respected independent, and for the last 5 or so years have been rebuilding NA 996/997/986/987 engines at a rate of ~1 per week. In the same time they have never rebuilt a Mezger, only replaced a few RMS at clutch change.And after the 2.5 years since this thread started, how many of the 'no problems' voters may have changed their minds?
A couple of responses - firstly forget this number 6 issue - it is not just number 6 and the scoring can be any of the bank 2 cylinders and often 2 or 3 of them.
Secondly - we have always repeatedly stated that they are great cars and that the number of failures is relatively small (although we expect the piston coating, cylinder ovality and crankshaft shell wear to lower the eventual average mileage before rebuilds are necessary and that many more will be rebuilt over the years to come and require several problems resolved and other weak spots improved in the process).
We are testing a number of "exta-cooling" products at present (some with good results) and will report back - as usual - when we actually know what the results show.
In our view (and following extensive research) there is more than one contributory factor in bore scoring. It may take two or three to coincide at some point in time to result in scoring.
The thermostat will dictate the coolant entry temperatures and the higher boiling point of some products would reduce localised overheating due to bubbling - if indeed that is the main causes scoring.
The strange ticking noise some engines exhibit is another example of our research. Sometimes it is a sign of three different imminent or existing failures - but it can also be present with no other mechanical wear causes - but a design problem of one particular component. We understand what causes it and have found a solution for one model type and are presently redesigning the problem component to try and eliminate it from the others. We feel this is a better response than just to claim it is a feature of many examples and that owners should put up with it. However it has taken hours of technical analysis, several engine rebuilds and miles of tests just to find out what the cause may be - let alone the solution. No doubt once we have resolved it others will just copy the cure and it is difficult (if not impossible) to protect such investments.
Our approach is to test things and try and identify changes, measure and observe the various conditions of the internals and usages, alter some components or designed conditions and monitor the results and from all that (and the several hundred engines we re-build each year and our racing engine examinations etc) zone in on a number of likely contributory factors.
Then we try to eliminate any potential causes that are not too expensive (for engines still OK) and not too expensive (for engines that are rebuilding in any case) and by this method reduce the new incidences overall and the need for repeat re-builds.
There are several others in business that we expect to jump on the bandwagon (like selling LTT's after no research or testing) or try to find a cheaper alternative (like steel liners) that prove less reliable long term - but we don't mind those seeking to run their cars when they cannot really afford them going elsewhere as there are always plenty who appreciate quality engineering expertise and commitment and know who best to go to when they have engine problems.
This is one reason we not only continuously run road going examples under tests but also race - to inflict the maximum stress and temperatures we can to various ideas and development products in a safe and legal environment that most owners will never subject their cars to.
For example - despite having some perfectly good, reliable and cost effective options for rebuilds -
we are still testing alternative piston coatings (for rebuilt engines) and a new coolant delivery balance system (for those running OK at the time) - so we are both trying to improve the quality of rebuilds (where necessary) and reduce the incidences of failures (for everyone else).
Some cynics will no doubt question us trying to prevent the problem occurring as poor business sense - but we are confident that those issues that are basic weak spots will eventually result in enough engines failing at the higher mileages they may well survive to - for us to keep busy and we hope that the combination of our expertise, capabilities and professional and indeed caring approach to protecting the quality of the Porsche experience - will bring enough customers to our doors for many years to come.
Furthermore we are always several modifications under test ahead of the market - with many new ideas and solutions as yet unheard of by anyone else.
So while we hope an engine failure will never happen to you! if it does we hope you have the good sense to work out at least one reliable bunch of dedicated engineers, technicians and machinists where you can get it fixed "IN HOUSE".
Baz
Secondly - we have always repeatedly stated that they are great cars and that the number of failures is relatively small (although we expect the piston coating, cylinder ovality and crankshaft shell wear to lower the eventual average mileage before rebuilds are necessary and that many more will be rebuilt over the years to come and require several problems resolved and other weak spots improved in the process).
We are testing a number of "exta-cooling" products at present (some with good results) and will report back - as usual - when we actually know what the results show.
In our view (and following extensive research) there is more than one contributory factor in bore scoring. It may take two or three to coincide at some point in time to result in scoring.
The thermostat will dictate the coolant entry temperatures and the higher boiling point of some products would reduce localised overheating due to bubbling - if indeed that is the main causes scoring.
The strange ticking noise some engines exhibit is another example of our research. Sometimes it is a sign of three different imminent or existing failures - but it can also be present with no other mechanical wear causes - but a design problem of one particular component. We understand what causes it and have found a solution for one model type and are presently redesigning the problem component to try and eliminate it from the others. We feel this is a better response than just to claim it is a feature of many examples and that owners should put up with it. However it has taken hours of technical analysis, several engine rebuilds and miles of tests just to find out what the cause may be - let alone the solution. No doubt once we have resolved it others will just copy the cure and it is difficult (if not impossible) to protect such investments.
Our approach is to test things and try and identify changes, measure and observe the various conditions of the internals and usages, alter some components or designed conditions and monitor the results and from all that (and the several hundred engines we re-build each year and our racing engine examinations etc) zone in on a number of likely contributory factors.
Then we try to eliminate any potential causes that are not too expensive (for engines still OK) and not too expensive (for engines that are rebuilding in any case) and by this method reduce the new incidences overall and the need for repeat re-builds.
There are several others in business that we expect to jump on the bandwagon (like selling LTT's after no research or testing) or try to find a cheaper alternative (like steel liners) that prove less reliable long term - but we don't mind those seeking to run their cars when they cannot really afford them going elsewhere as there are always plenty who appreciate quality engineering expertise and commitment and know who best to go to when they have engine problems.
This is one reason we not only continuously run road going examples under tests but also race - to inflict the maximum stress and temperatures we can to various ideas and development products in a safe and legal environment that most owners will never subject their cars to.
For example - despite having some perfectly good, reliable and cost effective options for rebuilds -
we are still testing alternative piston coatings (for rebuilt engines) and a new coolant delivery balance system (for those running OK at the time) - so we are both trying to improve the quality of rebuilds (where necessary) and reduce the incidences of failures (for everyone else).
Some cynics will no doubt question us trying to prevent the problem occurring as poor business sense - but we are confident that those issues that are basic weak spots will eventually result in enough engines failing at the higher mileages they may well survive to - for us to keep busy and we hope that the combination of our expertise, capabilities and professional and indeed caring approach to protecting the quality of the Porsche experience - will bring enough customers to our doors for many years to come.
Furthermore we are always several modifications under test ahead of the market - with many new ideas and solutions as yet unheard of by anyone else.
So while we hope an engine failure will never happen to you! if it does we hope you have the good sense to work out at least one reliable bunch of dedicated engineers, technicians and machinists where you can get it fixed "IN HOUSE".
Baz
I'm one of those (today) that has rejected a sale due to what can only be described as a lottery as to which part will brake first ?? in the engine. I must add that I am an optimist, if thats how you spell it.
Having found a low mileage Cayman which was a 2.7L 2007 which should not (apparently)suffer from an IMS failure, but had a leaky RMS...which of course was going to be fine, don't worry about it?
I'd picked the 2.7L because its a shorter stroke engine which should not suffer so much with bore wear?? 'as the 3.4 does' ????
The RMS was tested and noted at 2-3 on a scale of ten?? which should be fine sir?? don't worry about it.
Yes sir, you can take out an insurance for about £6-800 a year which will cover the car for these problems, I think? or you could dilute this in to monthly payments of around £80 odd pounds??
'The older cars normally suffer from these problems, but a 2007 should be fine'.
'It was the old 996 that had all these problems, and most modern cars don't suffer from this at all' ??
My next question was so simple it stumped the salesman.
If Porsche has known about this problem for all this time, why have they not done anything about it??
'It just happens that this 40,000 mile car has a minor leak, which you may just have to have done for about £6-800, in a few years, if it gets worse-- and also you may as well have a new clutch to save money in the future!!' as you will need a new clutch anyway at some time,
'You could also fit an uprated bearing with a far better seal' why didn't they put this in the car in the first place??
At this junction I could now be called sceptic.....
As stated in an ealier post, main dealers have had hardly any in for this problem.
That's because the specialists can do it for a resonable price, and doing at least one a week!!!
I really liked the Cayman, but............................
should i really have to spend £6-800 a year on insurance, or not bother and hope it will be fine.
That's the rub....... why should i have to make this choice in the first place
Gadgit.
Having found a low mileage Cayman which was a 2.7L 2007 which should not (apparently)suffer from an IMS failure, but had a leaky RMS...which of course was going to be fine, don't worry about it?
I'd picked the 2.7L because its a shorter stroke engine which should not suffer so much with bore wear?? 'as the 3.4 does' ????
The RMS was tested and noted at 2-3 on a scale of ten?? which should be fine sir?? don't worry about it.
Yes sir, you can take out an insurance for about £6-800 a year which will cover the car for these problems, I think? or you could dilute this in to monthly payments of around £80 odd pounds??
'The older cars normally suffer from these problems, but a 2007 should be fine'.
'It was the old 996 that had all these problems, and most modern cars don't suffer from this at all' ??
My next question was so simple it stumped the salesman.
If Porsche has known about this problem for all this time, why have they not done anything about it??
'It just happens that this 40,000 mile car has a minor leak, which you may just have to have done for about £6-800, in a few years, if it gets worse-- and also you may as well have a new clutch to save money in the future!!' as you will need a new clutch anyway at some time,
'You could also fit an uprated bearing with a far better seal' why didn't they put this in the car in the first place??
At this junction I could now be called sceptic.....
As stated in an ealier post, main dealers have had hardly any in for this problem.
That's because the specialists can do it for a resonable price, and doing at least one a week!!!
I really liked the Cayman, but............................
should i really have to spend £6-800 a year on insurance, or not bother and hope it will be fine.
That's the rub....... why should i have to make this choice in the first place
Gadgit.
hartech said:
A couple of responses - firstly forget this number 6 issue - it is not just number 6 and the scoring can be any of the bank 2 cylinders and often 2 or 3 of them.
Secondly - we have always repeatedly stated that they are great cars and that the number of failures is relatively small (although we expect the piston coating, cylinder ovality and crankshaft shell wear to lower the eventual average mileage before rebuilds are necessary and that many more will be rebuilt over the years to come and require several problems resolved and other weak spots improved in the process).
We are testing a number of "exta-cooling" products at present (some with good results) and will report back - as usual - when we actually know what the results show.
In our view (and following extensive research) there is more than one contributory factor in bore scoring. It may take two or three to coincide at some point in time to result in scoring.
The thermostat will dictate the coolant entry temperatures and the higher boiling point of some products would reduce localised overheating due to bubbling - if indeed that is the main causes scoring.
The strange ticking noise some engines exhibit is another example of our research. Sometimes it is a sign of three different imminent or existing failures - but it can also be present with no other mechanical wear causes - but a design problem of one particular component. We understand what causes it and have found a solution for one model type and are presently redesigning the problem component to try and eliminate it from the others. We feel this is a better response than just to claim it is a feature of many examples and that owners should put up with it. However it has taken hours of technical analysis, several engine rebuilds and miles of tests just to find out what the cause may be - let alone the solution. No doubt once we have resolved it others will just copy the cure and it is difficult (if not impossible) to protect such investments.
Our approach is to test things and try and identify changes, measure and observe the various conditions of the internals and usages, alter some components or designed conditions and monitor the results and from all that (and the several hundred engines we re-build each year and our racing engine examinations etc) zone in on a number of likely contributory factors.
Then we try to eliminate any potential causes that are not too expensive (for engines still OK) and not too expensive (for engines that are rebuilding in any case) and by this method reduce the new incidences overall and the need for repeat re-builds.
There are several others in business that we expect to jump on the bandwagon (like selling LTT's after no research or testing) or try to find a cheaper alternative (like steel liners) that prove less reliable long term - but we don't mind those seeking to run their cars when they cannot really afford them going elsewhere as there are always plenty who appreciate quality engineering expertise and commitment and know who best to go to when they have engine problems.
This is one reason we not only continuously run road going examples under tests but also race - to inflict the maximum stress and temperatures we can to various ideas and development products in a safe and legal environment that most owners will never subject their cars to.
For example - despite having some perfectly good, reliable and cost effective options for rebuilds -
we are still testing alternative piston coatings (for rebuilt engines) and a new coolant delivery balance system (for those running OK at the time) - so we are both trying to improve the quality of rebuilds (where necessary) and reduce the incidences of failures (for everyone else).
Some cynics will no doubt question us trying to prevent the problem occurring as poor business sense - but we are confident that those issues that are basic weak spots will eventually result in enough engines failing at the higher mileages they may well survive to - for us to keep busy and we hope that the combination of our expertise, capabilities and professional and indeed caring approach to protecting the quality of the Porsche experience - will bring enough customers to our doors for many years to come.
Furthermore we are always several modifications under test ahead of the market - with many new ideas and solutions as yet unheard of by anyone else.
So while we hope an engine failure will never happen to you! if it does we hope you have the good sense to work out at least one reliable bunch of dedicated engineers, technicians and machinists where you can get it fixed "IN HOUSE".
Baz
Hi BazSecondly - we have always repeatedly stated that they are great cars and that the number of failures is relatively small (although we expect the piston coating, cylinder ovality and crankshaft shell wear to lower the eventual average mileage before rebuilds are necessary and that many more will be rebuilt over the years to come and require several problems resolved and other weak spots improved in the process).
We are testing a number of "exta-cooling" products at present (some with good results) and will report back - as usual - when we actually know what the results show.
In our view (and following extensive research) there is more than one contributory factor in bore scoring. It may take two or three to coincide at some point in time to result in scoring.
The thermostat will dictate the coolant entry temperatures and the higher boiling point of some products would reduce localised overheating due to bubbling - if indeed that is the main causes scoring.
The strange ticking noise some engines exhibit is another example of our research. Sometimes it is a sign of three different imminent or existing failures - but it can also be present with no other mechanical wear causes - but a design problem of one particular component. We understand what causes it and have found a solution for one model type and are presently redesigning the problem component to try and eliminate it from the others. We feel this is a better response than just to claim it is a feature of many examples and that owners should put up with it. However it has taken hours of technical analysis, several engine rebuilds and miles of tests just to find out what the cause may be - let alone the solution. No doubt once we have resolved it others will just copy the cure and it is difficult (if not impossible) to protect such investments.
Our approach is to test things and try and identify changes, measure and observe the various conditions of the internals and usages, alter some components or designed conditions and monitor the results and from all that (and the several hundred engines we re-build each year and our racing engine examinations etc) zone in on a number of likely contributory factors.
Then we try to eliminate any potential causes that are not too expensive (for engines still OK) and not too expensive (for engines that are rebuilding in any case) and by this method reduce the new incidences overall and the need for repeat re-builds.
There are several others in business that we expect to jump on the bandwagon (like selling LTT's after no research or testing) or try to find a cheaper alternative (like steel liners) that prove less reliable long term - but we don't mind those seeking to run their cars when they cannot really afford them going elsewhere as there are always plenty who appreciate quality engineering expertise and commitment and know who best to go to when they have engine problems.
This is one reason we not only continuously run road going examples under tests but also race - to inflict the maximum stress and temperatures we can to various ideas and development products in a safe and legal environment that most owners will never subject their cars to.
For example - despite having some perfectly good, reliable and cost effective options for rebuilds -
we are still testing alternative piston coatings (for rebuilt engines) and a new coolant delivery balance system (for those running OK at the time) - so we are both trying to improve the quality of rebuilds (where necessary) and reduce the incidences of failures (for everyone else).
Some cynics will no doubt question us trying to prevent the problem occurring as poor business sense - but we are confident that those issues that are basic weak spots will eventually result in enough engines failing at the higher mileages they may well survive to - for us to keep busy and we hope that the combination of our expertise, capabilities and professional and indeed caring approach to protecting the quality of the Porsche experience - will bring enough customers to our doors for many years to come.
Furthermore we are always several modifications under test ahead of the market - with many new ideas and solutions as yet unheard of by anyone else.
So while we hope an engine failure will never happen to you! if it does we hope you have the good sense to work out at least one reliable bunch of dedicated engineers, technicians and machinists where you can get it fixed "IN HOUSE".
Baz
Porsche 997 56 C2S
How much do you charge to install the lower temp stat, also is it advisable to fit the center rad to improve cooling?
Thanks
Tim
We supply and fit the thermostat with new coolant etc for £250 + Vat. However I would wait to fit the radiator until we have in stock our new system (currently under test) to stop it raising the internal cylinder block temperature (which it does in hot conditions or extreme driving).
When the ambient conditions are as now - it is unlikely that the engine will suffer getting too hot internally until the late Spring/summer - so if you wanted the radiator I would wait a month or two for both by which time we can add the new control device.
The coolant lasts for years so it would always be worth doing both jobs at the same time and also worth checking the cylinder bores for scoring beforehand - just in case!
If you had cylinder scoring you would get new coolant and the thermostat anyway with the rebuild and the third radiator would not be needed if you chose all six cylinders replaced by Alloy Nikasil ones. It would however be beneficial with the new device - if you only had the scored bores fitted with new Nikasil cylinders but retained the un-scored original Lokasil ones (duly re-rounded and converted to a closed deck design during the rebuild).
Baz
When the ambient conditions are as now - it is unlikely that the engine will suffer getting too hot internally until the late Spring/summer - so if you wanted the radiator I would wait a month or two for both by which time we can add the new control device.
The coolant lasts for years so it would always be worth doing both jobs at the same time and also worth checking the cylinder bores for scoring beforehand - just in case!
If you had cylinder scoring you would get new coolant and the thermostat anyway with the rebuild and the third radiator would not be needed if you chose all six cylinders replaced by Alloy Nikasil ones. It would however be beneficial with the new device - if you only had the scored bores fitted with new Nikasil cylinders but retained the un-scored original Lokasil ones (duly re-rounded and converted to a closed deck design during the rebuild).
Baz
hartech said:
We supply and fit the thermostat with new coolant etc for £250 + Vat. However I would wait to fit the radiator until we have in stock our new system (currently under test) to stop it raising the internal cylinder block temperature (which it does in hot conditions or extreme driving).
When the ambient conditions are as now - it is unlikely that the engine will suffer getting too hot internally until the late Spring/summer - so if you wanted the radiator I would wait a month or two for both by which time we can add the new control device.
The coolant lasts for years so it would always be worth doing both jobs at the same time and also worth checking the cylinder bores for scoring beforehand - just in case!
If you had cylinder scoring you would get new coolant and the thermostat anyway with the rebuild and the third radiator would not be needed if you chose all six cylinders replaced by Alloy Nikasil ones. It would however be beneficial with the new device - if you only had the scored bores fitted with new Nikasil cylinders but retained the un-scored original Lokasil ones (duly re-rounded and converted to a closed deck design during the rebuild).
Baz
In worse case, let's say all the bores need relining how much are we looking at?When the ambient conditions are as now - it is unlikely that the engine will suffer getting too hot internally until the late Spring/summer - so if you wanted the radiator I would wait a month or two for both by which time we can add the new control device.
The coolant lasts for years so it would always be worth doing both jobs at the same time and also worth checking the cylinder bores for scoring beforehand - just in case!
If you had cylinder scoring you would get new coolant and the thermostat anyway with the rebuild and the third radiator would not be needed if you chose all six cylinders replaced by Alloy Nikasil ones. It would however be beneficial with the new device - if you only had the scored bores fitted with new Nikasil cylinders but retained the un-scored original Lokasil ones (duly re-rounded and converted to a closed deck design during the rebuild).
Baz
My car is running spot on, no oil usage at all, if that means anything. 34k on the clock
Mr Ping said:
Since posting about my stress free 100k worth of motoring in my 98 996 C2 cab two years ago my car has since developed a few faults.
My little boy has broke the flap on my drivers side sunvisor and stuck some raisins in my CD player.
Write to Porsche and complain. It's a disgrace that they think they can sell these cars and expect the buying public to soak up faults like these without it affecting their reputation. My little boy has broke the flap on my drivers side sunvisor and stuck some raisins in my CD player.
It wouldn't have happened if it was air cooled!
Apologies if this has been answered before, but I'm looking at getting the OH a 997 Gen 1 which has had a recent (2 years and 10,000 miles ago) new engine from Porsche at a reported cost of £14k or so
There was a 2 year Porsche warranty on the engine, now expired
Do those that know these things consider that a new engine of that vintage should be problem free, or would the usual risks still apply?
Thanks in advance for any guidance
Matt
There was a 2 year Porsche warranty on the engine, now expired
Do those that know these things consider that a new engine of that vintage should be problem free, or would the usual risks still apply?
Thanks in advance for any guidance
Matt
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