Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

[HoHoHo]

cragswinter said:

If you want to make it a sticky you want to make it a "Porsche water cooled engine failure" as this is a bit none helpful for owners or potential owners of boxsters & caymans.

Or perhaps a "water cooled flat 6 engine failure poll"

Just a thought.....

Happy with that thought - but I can't make it a sticky, a mod has to I assume?

[headlesshorseman]

yes 2004 996 engine replaced with new unit foc by opc at 15k miles.dont know what the fault was but engine would not turn over.

Edited by headlesshorseman on Monday 12th September 15:41

[HeliCoil]

How many has Hartech repaired?

[mayes911]

this post is never going to work or show a true picture.if anything it is going to show an over exaggerated view of failures .people who post or look at forums have either had a failure or are worried,i am one of those who had a failure nearly 5 years ago so started looking more into the problems and joined pistonheads and read heavily on other forums.what you have to look at is the amount of 986/7 and 996/7 gen1 cars that came in to the uk in the 10 years (1998-2008) and how many failures there have been.but you will never know how many were repaired under warranty etc.as a rough guide (purely quess work)pgb must have imported some 50000 cars in that time.so lets say they had 4 cars a week in to be repaired over the last 5 years and all the indies together the same.thats 2080 cars or a 4% failure rate.now i have only ever read of say 10+ cars actually failing on these forums.also to paint a truer picture of failure you need to factor in the:
TYPE OF FAILURE
MODEL(are certain models more likely to fail)
YEAR (are some years better than others this is true for the later ims)
MILEAGE OF FAILURE (what miles are they failing ie do oval bores occur only on higher mileage cars)
GEARBOX TYPE.(does a tiptronic fair better than a manual or visa versa)

then again some cars have had numerous owners and the new owner maybe unaware of an engine replaced under warranty and would proudly say 60000 miles and still going strong!
imho failure rate is still fairly low (less than 5%)and if you are unlucky the repair can be lot less than a Ferrari service,plus the 996/7 represents a cheap secondhand sports car even if you factor in a Hartech upgrade or lifetime plan.

so keep on driving and enjoy a great car

Edited by mayes911 on Tuesday 13th September 15:35

[HoHoHo]

mayes911 said:

this post is never going to work or show a true picture.if anything it is going to show an over exaggerated view of failures .people who post or look at forums have either had a failure or are worried,i am one of those who had a failure nearly 5 years ago so started looking more into the problems and joined pistonheads and read heavily on other forums.what you have to look at is the amount of 986/7 and 996/7 gen1 cars that came in to the uk in the 10 years (1998-2008) and how many failures there have been.but you will never know how many were repaired under warranty etc.as a rough guide (purely quess work)pgb must have imported some 50000 cars in that time.so lets say they had 4 cars a week in to be repaired over the last 5 years and all the indies together the same.thats 2080 cars or a 4% failure rate.now i have only ever read of say 10+ cars actually failing on these forums.also to paint a truer picture of failure you need to factor in the:
TYPE OF FAILURE
MODEL(are certain models more likely to fail)
YEAR (are some years better than others this is true for the later ims)
MILEAGE OF FAILURE (what miles are they failing ie do oval bores occur only on higher mileage cars)
GEARBOX TYPE.(does a tiptronic fair better than a manual or visa versa)

then again some cars have had numerous owners and the new owner maybe unaware of an engine replaced under warranty and would proudly say 60000 miles and still going strong!
imho failure rate is still fairly low (less than 5%)and if you are unlucky the repair can be lot less than a Ferrari service,plus the 996/7 represents a cheap secondhand sports car even if you factor in a Hartech upgrade or lifetime plan.

so keep on driving and enjoy a great car

Edited by mayes911 on Tuesday 13th September 15:35

I suspect you are correct which I why I started the poll - there are too many people waiting for a problem to happen that simply doesn't doesn't effect as many cars as suggested.

Hopefully owners will continue to vote and the results will show that whilst there are failures with a small number of cars, Porsche engines are no more fragile than any other major manufacturer.

[Blue Streak 2]

Good thread, let me add some analysis. I used to work for Ford as a purchasing manager and I know the only survey we took any notice of was the German TUV stats. They work with a representative sample (i.e. randomly selected from all owners) and from a minimum sample size of 500 and are thorough, unlike the internet chat rooms. So let's check out the TUV stats.

2009 Report
Most reliable cars between 8 and 9 years old (i.e. 996 2000 and 2001)
Number 1 - Boxster Fault Rate 5.2%
Number 2 - 911 (996) Fault Rate 5.3%

By contrast the Volkswagon Golf is rated as Number 22 with a fault rate of 14.5%

See:http://www.anusedcar.com/index.php/tuv-report-year-age/2009-8-9/221

Now this covers all faults from minor electrical to major engine failure so it's clear that statistically the number of major engine failures which will be a subset of 5.3% must be very low. Now I have sympathy for those unlucky enough to have suffered these issues but statistically they must be a very small minority. The magazines, Total 911 etc, also make no reference to the stats or have ever bothered talking to the TUV which I think is poor journalism. I'm sure if someone actually spoke to the TUV they could give a breakdown of the types of faults and this would put it to bed once and for all!

[blueg33]

Blue Streak 2 said:

Good thread, let me add some analysis. I used to work for Ford as a purchasing manager and I know the only survey we took any notice of was the German TUV stats. They work with a representative sample (i.e. randomly selected from all owners) and from a minimum sample size of 500 and are thorough, unlike the internet chat rooms. So let's check out the TUV stats.

2009 Report
Most reliable cars between 8 and 9 years old (i.e. 996 2000 and 2001)
Number 1 - Boxster Fault Rate 5.2%
Number 2 - 911 (996) Fault Rate 5.3%

By contrast the Volkswagon Golf is rated as Number 22 with a fault rate of 14.5%

See:http://www.anusedcar.com/index.php/tuv-report-year-age/2009-8-9/221

Now this covers all faults from minor electrical to major engine failure so it's clear that statistically the number of major engine failures which will be a subset of 5.3% must be very low.

My bold

It doesn't work like that I am afraid. You are making an assumption. You could just as easily assume that the 5% failure rate is all engine and that the Golf's 14% failure rate is all a squeaky door handle. The data you presented unfortunately does not show the sub sets.

What the stats tell you is that overall the Porsche cars are excellent (which is great news) but there is no measure of the seriousness of the faults.

[Rrroro]

My 2 pence is that I used to own a manual 2005 997 Carrera S. I owned it for almost a year before switching to a 2007 997 GT3. Throughout the duration of my ownership the Carrera was almost completely faultless (had a flat battery and also a puncture but can't blame Porsche for those issues!). However I found out completely by accident that the car had previously had an engine rebuild when I took it to a free 911 health check at an OPC. That OPC then got a bking from Porsche GB for informing me of the rebuild, which was done by Porsche themselves, presumably under warranty, for the previous owner. I do not know any details of the rebuild - why it was done, when etc - all I know is that the car had a rebuild before I bought it. With regards to this actual poll vote, I think perhaps there needs to be another option along the lines of 'Needed a rebuild or had a rebuild in the past but don't know the reason why'. I checked the IMS option but that's just a guess. 

I did feel a bit cheated / lied to at the time I found out about the rebuild (I had bought the car from an OPC in good faith as you do, and they obviously told me nothing about the cars history). However, as far as I'm concerned now, the car was fine when I bought it, and had anything gone wrong during my ownership I would have taken it back to Porsche to sort out. 

No car is ever going to be 100% perfect and I still own a Porsche, although a different model. Would I buy my old Carrera S again in the future, knowing what I know about it now? Yes. Now that I know the car had a rebuild in the past, in theory the chances of it needing another are even more slim. If I was going to buy a 997 Carrera S gen 1, I'd probably go for one with higher mileage, my logic being that any engine issues should have been sorted out by then. 

[HoHoHo]

Rrroro said:

 With regards to this actual poll vote, I think perhaps there needs to be another option along the lines of 'Needed a rebuild or had a rebuild in the past but don't know the reason why'. 

Good call, and it will add a further dimension.

[mollytherocker]

So far, 12 rebuilds and 104 OK.

Granted, this is a fairly crude measure, but 10% is a higher failure rate than I was expecting.

MTR

[hartech]

Please add 1 more (although in slightly different circumstances.

Readers may be aware that I have been waiting for our staff to rebuild the 997 3.8 I bought with scored bores and they have finished and what a great car it is.

Ok - my first drive was a "celebration" weekend at the Lakes - but for once my darling wife didn't complain about the harsh ride of the last one (a 996) thanks to adaptive suspension switch on "soft" - in fact she positiveley approved (a first!).

Plenty of room (to her amazement) to get two aircraft hold sized small cases in the front boot (thanks to the lack of a spare tyre) and room for more walking equipment (you know what they are like) behind the front seats - a pass on all female fronts - including a light in the sun visor - etc.

I managed to stop it accelerating fast enough to worry her about how I was going to drive it on my own (thanks to the fact the tiptronic switch works even in "D" to kick down while on light throttle for smooth quick overtaking without too much frowning from the seat on the left).

On a technical note I have previously suggested it may be that driving the cars flat out may contribute to a shorter life (yes I know they should take it and what's the point if they don't etc - I am just making an observation here that the engines are designed close to the limit and for drivers who rarely would drive flat out in every gear they can - the cars may well last better and even better if on the odd occasion they do open it up - the car is warm and everything is up to the right temperature). Well the mpg was already set @ 12.2 when I started driving it and 250 miles later was @ 20.5 - so the previous owner must have been driving it very hard before!). Why not you say - I agree - but it just possibly demonstrates that they are fragile if thrashed and maybe properly warmed up, frequent oil changes and thicker oil as they age - may just preserve the cylinder life longer - if you want massive acceleration on full throttle - everytime you go out in your car - perhaps a turbo is a better bet all round.

All in all a great car for the two of us to enjoy a brief break and it looked the business too.

Fortunately my trip fown to Silverstone this wekend ) for the final round of the Porsche Championship) is on my own - after which I can report if the car fulfills the Jekel and Hyde change of character - I expect it too - once let free of the constraints of female passenger concerns - suspension on hard and more throttle! I will still be running in of course - but more free to open it up a bit more.

I have also managed to solve the problem of the throttle cutting out when left foot braking into a corner - you just do a quick double flick of the accelerator (rather like double de-clutching) as you apply the brakes and the throttle stays on while you continue to brake into the corner.

As for the low temperature thermostat we fitted - the car warmed up quickly and never moved from spot on 80 the whole trip - regardless of fast or slow driving and a lot of low gear stuff etc.

Considering the price they are available at, the way they perform in contrasting modes and the performance (yet to be fully proven) it must be one of the best sports cars ever made.

Whatever the ratio ends up at - you can run one of these on our Maintenance Plan for very littl monthly outlay - no further service costs and a small bill if the engine failed - FOR AS LONG AS YOU OWN IT - NO MILEAGE, AGE OR CLAIM LIMIT - must be a bargain if managed right.

I do however recognise that I am in a privileged position - both to buy a car in this condition and of course fix it and run it without worrying about it (and I am testing new engine internals that will reduce rebuild costs further in the future when proven) but that doesn't alter the fact that the 997 3.8 is one hell of a great sports car (and especially when you have reached an age when you no longer need to race everyone all the time and have a partner that worries about the performance of your car and how you are goi9ng to drive it) and a car that can keep them happy and also take on a different character - when you are out on your own (I hope!).

Baz
_____________

[Richard Deal]

I have a 996 S4 2002 reg have been told I have a blown engine, signs are heavy oil use, black exhaust exits, £4500 - £5,000 to rebuild, it has become a well known problem with the dealers and perhaps wider public, Porsche have their heads in the sand but it is really affecting values + I am now seriously put off buying another one. Oh, and the car is off the road for 4-5 weeks.

[mollytherocker]

Richard Deal said:

I have a 996 S4 2002 reg have been told I have a blown engine, signs are heavy oil use, black exhaust exits, £4500 - £5,000 to rebuild, it has become a well known problem with the dealers and perhaps wider public, Porsche have their heads in the sand but it is really affecting values + I am now seriously put off buying another one. Oh, and the car is off the road for 4-5 weeks.

Dont forget to complete the poll.

MTR

[Gibbo205]

Hi there


Those are you who have had a failure, did your car (911) have the additional centre radiator or not?

[speedyun]

Isn't the central radiator in the 997.1 for the tip transmission/X51 powerkit?

[Gibbo205]

speedyun said:

Isn't the central radiator in the 997.1 for the tip transmission/X51 powerkit?

Yes but you can retro-fit it as long as you use Porsche genuine kit and for 997.1 its only circa £100.

I did this, still got an OPC warranty etc. and benefit greatly from lower temperatures when on a run or on track, so definetely a good idea for the engine as it makes a marked difference.

[speedyun]

Does that mean the central rad on a tip is for the gearbox?
If so, you would need to know not only if the failed engine had a central rad, but also if the car was a tip?

[Gibbo205]

speedyun said:

Does that mean the central rad on a tip is for the gearbox?
If so, you would need to know not only if the failed engine had a central rad, but also if the car was a tip?

Correct but does the central rad on a tip car help cool the engine too or is it soley for the tip box?

If its just TIP box only, then it will make this hard to narrow things down as that would mean the only cars with additional cooling were X51 cars or retro-fitted cars which there shall be far fewer off? Has an X51 car ever let go?

[mollytherocker]

My understanding is that the rads would make no difference. The problem is an insufficient water circulation around one side of the block (4,5,6?) due to a poor design.

We need Baz or some other boffin to confirm though.

MTR

[Richie200]

'98 C2
Full Hartech rebuild at 65,450 miles by previous owner, now at 76,500 miles. Rebuild included:
-1x new cylinder head and overhauled other side
-Replacement (beefed up) IMS bearing
-New chains
-New crank bearings
-Hartech Cylinder restraining rings
-Modified IMS sprocket
-Nikasil (Turbo) cylinder liners
-Rerouted cooling for more efficient cooling

Previous Porsche Design Chocolate open deck engine:

Now with Hartech Engine: