Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?
Poll: Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?
Total Members Polled: 867
Discussion
A bit of detail on why I did not buy a car i wanted.
Advertised car 2005 997 3.8s
Rung up dealer and new engine fitted 2010. I thougt great, just what I'm looking for, a problem free car that should have all the problems fixed for me and off I go into the sunshine!!!
So, just to speak to the main dealer to confirm the car should now be fine for many miles to come. No....
In my ignorance I assumed that the bore problem would now be fine.
Main dealer honest workshop manager admitted to me that the same engine would be fitted and could not say that all now would be fine.
The gen 2 engine won't fit, so with no mods they just bung in a new same as it ever was engine.
First engine replaced at 25k miles....
So, if i have to replace another engine in 25k miles how much, £11000...main dealer that is.
Honest man at well know specialist does 2 a month, more or less every month?
I can't find any specialist that aren't repairing them all the time and this is just for smoking engines.... Bores problem.
I am the last man to be a doom and gloom merchant having had several TVRs so don't label me as a scare mongering.
I would still love to have one, but will do what the main dealer workshop manager told me, which was to save another £5-10k and buy gen2 911.
Gadgit.
Advertised car 2005 997 3.8s
Rung up dealer and new engine fitted 2010. I thougt great, just what I'm looking for, a problem free car that should have all the problems fixed for me and off I go into the sunshine!!!
So, just to speak to the main dealer to confirm the car should now be fine for many miles to come. No....
In my ignorance I assumed that the bore problem would now be fine.
Main dealer honest workshop manager admitted to me that the same engine would be fitted and could not say that all now would be fine.
The gen 2 engine won't fit, so with no mods they just bung in a new same as it ever was engine.
First engine replaced at 25k miles....
So, if i have to replace another engine in 25k miles how much, £11000...main dealer that is.
Honest man at well know specialist does 2 a month, more or less every month?
I can't find any specialist that aren't repairing them all the time and this is just for smoking engines.... Bores problem.
I am the last man to be a doom and gloom merchant having had several TVRs so don't label me as a scare mongering.
I would still love to have one, but will do what the main dealer workshop manager told me, which was to save another £5-10k and buy gen2 911.
Gadgit.
On the question of scare-mongering - please don't feel intimidated into discussing things because others throw in that red herring.
I have a light hearted analogy that I think brings that issue into focus. With so many contributions to the whole M96/7 engine situation and many not knowing what to do for the best – and various opinions varying from well worth owning to best keep away – and those involved in the repair loop being variously praised and accused of all sorts of unsavoury things – and with increasing editorial on the subject - I thought this analogy might put things into perspective.
Imagine thinking of or actually owning one of these models to enjoy the whole experience is like moving to or living in a fantastic Country – lovely weather – superb facilities – secure jobs and lifestyle – nice people – what’s not to like and enjoy? – but there is just one problem – a small chance of contracting one or more of 5 life threatening diseases that can drag you down unless an expensive cure is taken up – a situation your body will probably eventually seccum to in one form or another anyway – it just being a matter of time.
Imagine that in that Country there are several small clinics offering expensive preventative inoculations for permanent or partial cures for some of the diseases (but not all) and a couple of others offering permanent cures for little more cost (if anymore) that will fix all existing illnesses and prevent others being contracted allowing their patient to enjoy the rest of their life trouble free.
What would you do if you already lived there are were thinking of moving there?
Some would factor in the cost of the permanent all singing and dancing cure at the outset so they can enjoy all the benefits without fear for their lifetime.
Some may not be able to afford that or decide to wait until they contract one or more of the diseases knowing there is a cure available (even though it may then cost more because of the damage contacting it may cause in the meantime).
If they did catch one disease some would only pay to cure that and remain at risk of the others afterwards while others would take the opportunity to have a jab to avoid any future problems at the same time and live worry free thereafter.
Others would simply risk catching any of the diseases knowing that despite the almost inevitability of doing so one day – they may not live there forever and may get away with it – with luck.
Then there will be those that write about some very old person who never contracted any of the diseases and lived a full and long life – suggesting this proves that all those that died meanwhile are just a figment of people’s imagination and that there isn’t a problem living there! it is all just SCAREMONGERING!
I take no issue with whatever anyone decided to do (it’s a free World) but what would be absolutely extraordinary would be for those thinking of or already moving to that Country – to criticise the leading clinics that have invested the most in finding reliable permanent cures of putting them off going there or “scaremongering” (because they promote their antidotes and cures to help those with the problem or trying to avoid it) – or those that complain that they are spoiling existing residents enjoyment of life (by explaining how and why people contract the diseases and when asked that they can cure it) – be accused of “self-promotion” when they answer questions on the Internet describing why their cures are the best and/or defend their vaccines (that cure hundreds more than inferior providers) when competitors argue about what solutions are best.
I cannot imagine anyone with half a brain thinking that those investing huge amounts in finding reliable solutions are just out to make a fast buck or in some way the cause of the problem and that most intelligent people would be relieved that there is a way to enjoy all the benefits of residency with either reliable preventative cures available or life-saving treatment for those already contracting one or more of the diseases and that their availability would make the choice to move there and enjoy the experience far more positive and make the Country far more attractive and valuable than if there were no solutions available – or temporary cures that cost even more bit leave the recipient just as likely to catch the same disease (or one of the other 4) again in the future.
Well people will always attack an analogy as misleading but I find this one adds clarity to the situation without a downside - what do you think?
Baz
I have a light hearted analogy that I think brings that issue into focus. With so many contributions to the whole M96/7 engine situation and many not knowing what to do for the best – and various opinions varying from well worth owning to best keep away – and those involved in the repair loop being variously praised and accused of all sorts of unsavoury things – and with increasing editorial on the subject - I thought this analogy might put things into perspective.
Imagine thinking of or actually owning one of these models to enjoy the whole experience is like moving to or living in a fantastic Country – lovely weather – superb facilities – secure jobs and lifestyle – nice people – what’s not to like and enjoy? – but there is just one problem – a small chance of contracting one or more of 5 life threatening diseases that can drag you down unless an expensive cure is taken up – a situation your body will probably eventually seccum to in one form or another anyway – it just being a matter of time.
Imagine that in that Country there are several small clinics offering expensive preventative inoculations for permanent or partial cures for some of the diseases (but not all) and a couple of others offering permanent cures for little more cost (if anymore) that will fix all existing illnesses and prevent others being contracted allowing their patient to enjoy the rest of their life trouble free.
What would you do if you already lived there are were thinking of moving there?
Some would factor in the cost of the permanent all singing and dancing cure at the outset so they can enjoy all the benefits without fear for their lifetime.
Some may not be able to afford that or decide to wait until they contract one or more of the diseases knowing there is a cure available (even though it may then cost more because of the damage contacting it may cause in the meantime).
If they did catch one disease some would only pay to cure that and remain at risk of the others afterwards while others would take the opportunity to have a jab to avoid any future problems at the same time and live worry free thereafter.
Others would simply risk catching any of the diseases knowing that despite the almost inevitability of doing so one day – they may not live there forever and may get away with it – with luck.
Then there will be those that write about some very old person who never contracted any of the diseases and lived a full and long life – suggesting this proves that all those that died meanwhile are just a figment of people’s imagination and that there isn’t a problem living there! it is all just SCAREMONGERING!
I take no issue with whatever anyone decided to do (it’s a free World) but what would be absolutely extraordinary would be for those thinking of or already moving to that Country – to criticise the leading clinics that have invested the most in finding reliable permanent cures of putting them off going there or “scaremongering” (because they promote their antidotes and cures to help those with the problem or trying to avoid it) – or those that complain that they are spoiling existing residents enjoyment of life (by explaining how and why people contract the diseases and when asked that they can cure it) – be accused of “self-promotion” when they answer questions on the Internet describing why their cures are the best and/or defend their vaccines (that cure hundreds more than inferior providers) when competitors argue about what solutions are best.
I cannot imagine anyone with half a brain thinking that those investing huge amounts in finding reliable solutions are just out to make a fast buck or in some way the cause of the problem and that most intelligent people would be relieved that there is a way to enjoy all the benefits of residency with either reliable preventative cures available or life-saving treatment for those already contracting one or more of the diseases and that their availability would make the choice to move there and enjoy the experience far more positive and make the Country far more attractive and valuable than if there were no solutions available – or temporary cures that cost even more bit leave the recipient just as likely to catch the same disease (or one of the other 4) again in the future.
Well people will always attack an analogy as misleading but I find this one adds clarity to the situation without a downside - what do you think?
Baz
Hi Baz,
One of your main preventative strategies appears to be maximising cooling (to the piston linings), with low-temp thermostat, etc.
What are you thoughts on the use of Evans Waterless Coolant as a part of that strategy? Evans claim that by reducing formation of steam the reduction of hot-spots is increased.
Is it worth trying? Have you tried it already?
Thanks.
One of your main preventative strategies appears to be maximising cooling (to the piston linings), with low-temp thermostat, etc.
What are you thoughts on the use of Evans Waterless Coolant as a part of that strategy? Evans claim that by reducing formation of steam the reduction of hot-spots is increased.
Is it worth trying? Have you tried it already?
Thanks.
Baz.....I'm afraid you have mistaken someone who has an illness that can be cured with antibiotics, rather than a cancer which as far as I know they have yet to find a cure for.
As far as relating cars to humans, yes they are all going to die but hopefully not as early as a porsche. If only we could re bore a human that would indeed be a miracle.
Are you a brain surgeon in your spare time, or do you genuinely believe that you are creating miracles at work ????
Only joking of course
I may need some surgery from you at some time?????
Gadgit
As far as relating cars to humans, yes they are all going to die but hopefully not as early as a porsche. If only we could re bore a human that would indeed be a miracle.
Are you a brain surgeon in your spare time, or do you genuinely believe that you are creating miracles at work ????
Only joking of course
I may need some surgery from you at some time?????
Gadgit
Using Evans waterless coolant is a difficult question to quantify because it is impossible to criticise something that is genuinely an improvement or adds a safety margin (which it does) and we stock the product and will use it if customers so request but it is a long process to change to it and it is a relatively expensive change as a result.
Under pressure water will not boil until a higher temperature is reached (some 20 to 25 degrees higher than at ambient) and Evans will not - so if the engine lost coolant pressure - it would improve the cooling by avoiding bubbling/boiling and maintaining a good contact between the cylinder wall and the cooling medium - no question. The standard thermostat can result in running temperatures in some conditions that with loss of pressure could result in bubbling but our LTT reduces that considerably anyway while increasing oil viscosity and helping protect against bore scoring as a result and is much cheaper.
Generally - radiators do corrode and weep and expansion tanks crack, caps leak, hoses split and hose clips corrode - all of which can lead to leaks - but unless they are fixed any coolant will continue to leak out and then as the coolant level drops there will be serious cooling issues whatever is in the system. So checking the system for leaks and potential problems is a key feature of our thorough attention to detail during servicing and general work and so we would like to think that the cars we look after are very unlikely to leak anyway and that if we find or suspect a leak, we think it needs fixing there and then rather than be ignored (or receive less attention) on the grounds that the coolant will still not boil anyway!
Similarly for Racing - it is not uncommon to bump the front of the car and create a leak that could stop you finishing and damage the engine - but there would then be a potential problem due to the slippery product depositing itself on the track for everyone participating. As a result we decided not to risk it - but that is not a criticism of the potential cooling benefits - rather more a concern for driver safety!
So if after making sure a radiator inlet is free of debris and all parts of the system are not corroded and the coolant pump is OK etc a customer wanted and can afford the added protection of a waterless coolant - it can only be a good thing for general road use but while we think our own awareness of the consequences of a leak for our customers lowers the need to include the additional expense it would be a bad thing if others thought that by using it they didn't need to bother with that care and attention to cooling system integrity on the grounds that it wouldn't boil anyway if they had a leak.
So if you think you have a leak better to fix it than change to a coolant that might tolerate it without engine damage. If you have not got a leak best to get it checked out first before changing coolant. If you can afford both AND waterless coolant changes - "YES" if you can afford it - no problem added protection for sure (except possibly for racing?) and "YES" it would help protect an engine in the event of a pressure drop but with a LTT and regular attention it should not really be necessary.
Ironically the owners that would justify it would also be the ones making sure their systems were leak free anyway while those too tight to pay for important maintenance issues would be most likely to benefit but the least likely to agree to using it.
EGTE - yes a bit of Christmas fun intended but cancer is both curable and the chances of getting it can be reduced by awareness of the contributory factors - and there are a lot more "illnesses" that are life threatening and can be cured or inoculated against!
My analogy was not written to benefit sensible people that understand the issues and know how to deal with them but for doubters and critics who accuse contributors who discuss issues or provide solutions as "self promoting" and "scare mongering" or who prefer to live in ignorance than deal with the real problems that life can throw at them!
Not claiming to supply miracles - but it is a pretty good contribution to the reputation of a high profile product from a respected but extremely wealthy and sizeable manufacturer that a small business like ours can not only research, test and discover the short comings but also - as a result - repair their failed product and render it more reliable afterwards for a much lower cost than their own replacements that contain and repeat the very same issues!
Baz
Under pressure water will not boil until a higher temperature is reached (some 20 to 25 degrees higher than at ambient) and Evans will not - so if the engine lost coolant pressure - it would improve the cooling by avoiding bubbling/boiling and maintaining a good contact between the cylinder wall and the cooling medium - no question. The standard thermostat can result in running temperatures in some conditions that with loss of pressure could result in bubbling but our LTT reduces that considerably anyway while increasing oil viscosity and helping protect against bore scoring as a result and is much cheaper.
Generally - radiators do corrode and weep and expansion tanks crack, caps leak, hoses split and hose clips corrode - all of which can lead to leaks - but unless they are fixed any coolant will continue to leak out and then as the coolant level drops there will be serious cooling issues whatever is in the system. So checking the system for leaks and potential problems is a key feature of our thorough attention to detail during servicing and general work and so we would like to think that the cars we look after are very unlikely to leak anyway and that if we find or suspect a leak, we think it needs fixing there and then rather than be ignored (or receive less attention) on the grounds that the coolant will still not boil anyway!
Similarly for Racing - it is not uncommon to bump the front of the car and create a leak that could stop you finishing and damage the engine - but there would then be a potential problem due to the slippery product depositing itself on the track for everyone participating. As a result we decided not to risk it - but that is not a criticism of the potential cooling benefits - rather more a concern for driver safety!
So if after making sure a radiator inlet is free of debris and all parts of the system are not corroded and the coolant pump is OK etc a customer wanted and can afford the added protection of a waterless coolant - it can only be a good thing for general road use but while we think our own awareness of the consequences of a leak for our customers lowers the need to include the additional expense it would be a bad thing if others thought that by using it they didn't need to bother with that care and attention to cooling system integrity on the grounds that it wouldn't boil anyway if they had a leak.
So if you think you have a leak better to fix it than change to a coolant that might tolerate it without engine damage. If you have not got a leak best to get it checked out first before changing coolant. If you can afford both AND waterless coolant changes - "YES" if you can afford it - no problem added protection for sure (except possibly for racing?) and "YES" it would help protect an engine in the event of a pressure drop but with a LTT and regular attention it should not really be necessary.
Ironically the owners that would justify it would also be the ones making sure their systems were leak free anyway while those too tight to pay for important maintenance issues would be most likely to benefit but the least likely to agree to using it.
EGTE - yes a bit of Christmas fun intended but cancer is both curable and the chances of getting it can be reduced by awareness of the contributory factors - and there are a lot more "illnesses" that are life threatening and can be cured or inoculated against!
My analogy was not written to benefit sensible people that understand the issues and know how to deal with them but for doubters and critics who accuse contributors who discuss issues or provide solutions as "self promoting" and "scare mongering" or who prefer to live in ignorance than deal with the real problems that life can throw at them!
Not claiming to supply miracles - but it is a pretty good contribution to the reputation of a high profile product from a respected but extremely wealthy and sizeable manufacturer that a small business like ours can not only research, test and discover the short comings but also - as a result - repair their failed product and render it more reliable afterwards for a much lower cost than their own replacements that contain and repeat the very same issues!
Baz
Edited by hartech on Sunday 6th December 09:34
I found a write up on the M96/M97 engine issues. Unfortunately it is german and you have to request a link to receive the download but it is 86 pages long and very in-depth. You can then translate it with google translator.
http://www.cartronic-motorsport.de/cartronic_downl...
http://www.cartronic-motorsport.de/cartronic_downl...
EricE said:
I found a write up on the M96/M97 engine issues. Unfortunately it is german and you have to request a link to receive the download but it is 86 pages long and very in-depth. You can then translate it with google translator.
http://www.cartronic-motorsport.de/cartronic_downl...
So does this tell us anything we didn't already know?http://www.cartronic-motorsport.de/cartronic_downl...
Nope, they were actually working with Baz, and just re-hashed what Baz has had explained in a number of posts in the last couple of years. There might be a little bit more up to date information however Baz indicated that he's been working to update the buyer's guide which I suspect will be the 'must-to-read' for any current, prospective or past 996 owners.
DangerDoom said:
EricE said:
I found a write up on the M96/M97 engine issues. Unfortunately it is german and you have to request a link to receive the download but it is 86 pages long and very in-depth. You can then translate it with google translator.
http://www.cartronic-motorsport.de/cartronic_downl...
So does this tell us anything we didn't already know?http://www.cartronic-motorsport.de/cartronic_downl...
Yes Cartronic are one of our International appointed agents for our products, with crankcases going backwards and forwards for cylinders and various other parts etc and it is not all one way traffic either - as we in return trade some engine components they can obtain in Germany. It also increases our joint buying power - all of which helps keep prices down.
As our agents they have access to our promotional stuff (and that includes the old "Buyers guide" which they have used to create their version in German.
Yes again - I have been working on a completely new and modern technical guide to these engine problems.
The difficulty is not in explaining problems but when someone with some specialist knowledge in a specific area wants to probe further or question in more detail. To anticipate that in advance and try and explain enough to cover every anticipated issue - results in a huge and hard to read document - especially for those who didn't need to wade through all the detail because they already know much of it.
I think our old guide was in the region of 130,000 words and plus photos and a few graphs and charts.
The new one condenses the initial descriptions down to 4 pages but then allow highlighted words and topics to be "clicked on" to reach a deeper more technical level - and that then can be clicked on again to go even deeper etc. Mixed in with photos , charts and videos it should enable anyone at any level of interest and qualification to find the level they are interested in quickly and easily without having to plod through things they already know or are not interested in. Thos seeking specific knowledge will be able to connect to the sub-section index and "click" directly to the topic they want to read about.
So far there are over 100 sub-sections - all interlinked and it has worked out well because several topics link back into some sub-sections that are the same.
It has taken a lot to re-write it and the total is now down to 50,000 words but - now selectable - but it is up to date.
The old guide was mainly re-written about 8 or 10 years ago and I was surprised when I was looking in our photo library that many of the pictures of M96/97 engines, our cylinder liners and explanations about the problems and why they occurred were actually 12 years old already (didn't realise how long we have been rebuilding them until then - it seems like yesterday!)
We intend to get it on line soon (with possibly a few sub-sections left unfinished) and the video link have yet to be shot - but it is 90% complete.
We already have agents in a few Countries and hope to expand this across the pond soon.
I think we are the only supplier of aerospace high tensile alloy Nikasil plated cylinders that fit into a precision machined recess in the top of the cylinder block (in the World - which involves more expensive machinery and longer machining times but creates a much better product)) and that extra reliability that results is why we have managed to supply over 2000 already all with no problems.
I don't know of anyone else that re- machines the coolant channels - nor will machine and fit support rings to original standard Lokasil cylinders. There is certainly no engine builder that has had more racing success with these engines nor that has done more research and development resulting in our Racing valved sumps, thermostat housings, LTT's etc.
Any International interested parties are very welcome to get in touch.
Baz
As our agents they have access to our promotional stuff (and that includes the old "Buyers guide" which they have used to create their version in German.
Yes again - I have been working on a completely new and modern technical guide to these engine problems.
The difficulty is not in explaining problems but when someone with some specialist knowledge in a specific area wants to probe further or question in more detail. To anticipate that in advance and try and explain enough to cover every anticipated issue - results in a huge and hard to read document - especially for those who didn't need to wade through all the detail because they already know much of it.
I think our old guide was in the region of 130,000 words and plus photos and a few graphs and charts.
The new one condenses the initial descriptions down to 4 pages but then allow highlighted words and topics to be "clicked on" to reach a deeper more technical level - and that then can be clicked on again to go even deeper etc. Mixed in with photos , charts and videos it should enable anyone at any level of interest and qualification to find the level they are interested in quickly and easily without having to plod through things they already know or are not interested in. Thos seeking specific knowledge will be able to connect to the sub-section index and "click" directly to the topic they want to read about.
So far there are over 100 sub-sections - all interlinked and it has worked out well because several topics link back into some sub-sections that are the same.
It has taken a lot to re-write it and the total is now down to 50,000 words but - now selectable - but it is up to date.
The old guide was mainly re-written about 8 or 10 years ago and I was surprised when I was looking in our photo library that many of the pictures of M96/97 engines, our cylinder liners and explanations about the problems and why they occurred were actually 12 years old already (didn't realise how long we have been rebuilding them until then - it seems like yesterday!)
We intend to get it on line soon (with possibly a few sub-sections left unfinished) and the video link have yet to be shot - but it is 90% complete.
We already have agents in a few Countries and hope to expand this across the pond soon.
I think we are the only supplier of aerospace high tensile alloy Nikasil plated cylinders that fit into a precision machined recess in the top of the cylinder block (in the World - which involves more expensive machinery and longer machining times but creates a much better product)) and that extra reliability that results is why we have managed to supply over 2000 already all with no problems.
I don't know of anyone else that re- machines the coolant channels - nor will machine and fit support rings to original standard Lokasil cylinders. There is certainly no engine builder that has had more racing success with these engines nor that has done more research and development resulting in our Racing valved sumps, thermostat housings, LTT's etc.
Any International interested parties are very welcome to get in touch.
Baz
I deal with the technical issues and so am not the best one to answer this question - and the person who is - is too busy right now managing actual new engine rebuild business (sorry). I know this sounds like a simple request and most readers would assume the answer would just be "yes" (and I know he tries his best to assist) but unfortunately it is not as simple as that.
Firstly many of our customers are Porsche specialists for whom we may fit 1, 2, 3, or 6 Nikasil alloy "closed deck" liners - who then go on to build the engine themselves to their own specification (about which we have no control). What we do for them is a private matter between them and us as they are "our customer" and it is for them to inform anyone enquiring about the engine - if they wish to do so.
Secondly Owners who are customers also are informed about the condition of their engine before the rebuild, recommendations and costs and lots of different issues are discussed. This is also a private matter between them and us. Although we would refuse to carry out such a poor specification of rebuild that it would be unlikely to last long - there are still perfectly legitimate differences customers choose (often depending on their long term plans for the car and their finances).
For example lets say a 997 with 47K on the clock scores a bore and there is another one the same that has not. If the latter (with no scoring) came up for sale some 10K later (say 57K on the clock) you would not expect there to be a need for that engine to have been stripped and fitted with new pistons, chains, crankshaft shells, decoked, valves seats recut etc and would be perfectly happy if it had no scoring to buy it and drive it for a lot more miles.
So (returning to the scored engine @ 47K) it cannot be said to be "wrong" to re-use some of those parts during a rebuild "IF" there is nothing wrong with them and they are in typical condition for the mileage - so it would be unreasonable to insist that they are changed and so some may be and some may not (depending on our customers instructions).
Some customers follow our minimum advice and we rebuild a good strong engine while others just want it like brand new (well even better with all the mods and changes we can carry out) and pay a relatively small amount extra to make the engine even better and newer internally and likely to last even longer.
It is not for us to reveal the details of such private issues that took place between us and out customer and although some disagree - we have it on good authority that it does break the data protection act to disclose invoice information about such a rebuild to a third party (which it would inevitably do if we provided full details).
Also - when we accept an order we do not know at that stage exactly what the internal condition is and what will be required and so - if (for example) we accept a crankcase, engine or car on the basis that it has say one scored cylinder and otherwise should be OK inside and then we strip it down, inspect and measure everything and find lots of other damage (say) or perhaps evidence that it had previously clocked and therefore clearly had covered many more miles than we were told on acceptance of the order - we simply cannot insist that the customer pays far more than we were contracted to do when we accepted the order - and if they simply cannot afford the repairs necessary as a minimum - we would refuse to continue but in that grey area where it is not strictly necessary to replace a component right then (although preferable long term) compromises can be reached. It would then we wrong for us to discuss all those issues with someone who does not own the car and might not buy it - it is in our opinion a confidence between us and our customer.
We always provide an invoice outlining what was done and so an interested buyer can request that from the owner or get their permission for us to reveal all to a potential buyer - in which case we would be happy to do so. Having said that demand continues to grow and we are still expanding the engine rebuild part of the business (presently building more engine rebuild rooms and moving offices to cope) and leaving precious little time to chat to several prospective buyers all interested in the same car we might have had something to do with the engine rebuild some years ago and who are never going to become customers of ours anyway.
An owner selling the car who had a rebuild by us but refuses that permission or does not provide records must run the risk that the interested buyer may interpret that negatively and look elsewhere.
Having said that one of the reasons we are so busy is that whatever detailed specification of rebuild we carry out there are very rarely any problems resulting many years or thousands of miles later and so most engines we have rebuilt ourselves will be the best that owner could get for the money he originally spent but obviously the mileages covered since a rebuild and the specification it was built to are influencing factors in the value and price you should pay.
I do understand that quite a lot of cars are advertised as having had a Hartech engine rebuild and that some new prospective buyers assume that means we did all the work here and to the top specification - but that it not always the case and so they would be right to ask pertinent questions. So by all means ask the previous or existing owner the question but please don't be offended if - when you ask us (having drawn a blank) we politely decline to get into details without the owners permission or if we are simply too busy at the time.
Baz
Firstly many of our customers are Porsche specialists for whom we may fit 1, 2, 3, or 6 Nikasil alloy "closed deck" liners - who then go on to build the engine themselves to their own specification (about which we have no control). What we do for them is a private matter between them and us as they are "our customer" and it is for them to inform anyone enquiring about the engine - if they wish to do so.
Secondly Owners who are customers also are informed about the condition of their engine before the rebuild, recommendations and costs and lots of different issues are discussed. This is also a private matter between them and us. Although we would refuse to carry out such a poor specification of rebuild that it would be unlikely to last long - there are still perfectly legitimate differences customers choose (often depending on their long term plans for the car and their finances).
For example lets say a 997 with 47K on the clock scores a bore and there is another one the same that has not. If the latter (with no scoring) came up for sale some 10K later (say 57K on the clock) you would not expect there to be a need for that engine to have been stripped and fitted with new pistons, chains, crankshaft shells, decoked, valves seats recut etc and would be perfectly happy if it had no scoring to buy it and drive it for a lot more miles.
So (returning to the scored engine @ 47K) it cannot be said to be "wrong" to re-use some of those parts during a rebuild "IF" there is nothing wrong with them and they are in typical condition for the mileage - so it would be unreasonable to insist that they are changed and so some may be and some may not (depending on our customers instructions).
Some customers follow our minimum advice and we rebuild a good strong engine while others just want it like brand new (well even better with all the mods and changes we can carry out) and pay a relatively small amount extra to make the engine even better and newer internally and likely to last even longer.
It is not for us to reveal the details of such private issues that took place between us and out customer and although some disagree - we have it on good authority that it does break the data protection act to disclose invoice information about such a rebuild to a third party (which it would inevitably do if we provided full details).
Also - when we accept an order we do not know at that stage exactly what the internal condition is and what will be required and so - if (for example) we accept a crankcase, engine or car on the basis that it has say one scored cylinder and otherwise should be OK inside and then we strip it down, inspect and measure everything and find lots of other damage (say) or perhaps evidence that it had previously clocked and therefore clearly had covered many more miles than we were told on acceptance of the order - we simply cannot insist that the customer pays far more than we were contracted to do when we accepted the order - and if they simply cannot afford the repairs necessary as a minimum - we would refuse to continue but in that grey area where it is not strictly necessary to replace a component right then (although preferable long term) compromises can be reached. It would then we wrong for us to discuss all those issues with someone who does not own the car and might not buy it - it is in our opinion a confidence between us and our customer.
We always provide an invoice outlining what was done and so an interested buyer can request that from the owner or get their permission for us to reveal all to a potential buyer - in which case we would be happy to do so. Having said that demand continues to grow and we are still expanding the engine rebuild part of the business (presently building more engine rebuild rooms and moving offices to cope) and leaving precious little time to chat to several prospective buyers all interested in the same car we might have had something to do with the engine rebuild some years ago and who are never going to become customers of ours anyway.
An owner selling the car who had a rebuild by us but refuses that permission or does not provide records must run the risk that the interested buyer may interpret that negatively and look elsewhere.
Having said that one of the reasons we are so busy is that whatever detailed specification of rebuild we carry out there are very rarely any problems resulting many years or thousands of miles later and so most engines we have rebuilt ourselves will be the best that owner could get for the money he originally spent but obviously the mileages covered since a rebuild and the specification it was built to are influencing factors in the value and price you should pay.
I do understand that quite a lot of cars are advertised as having had a Hartech engine rebuild and that some new prospective buyers assume that means we did all the work here and to the top specification - but that it not always the case and so they would be right to ask pertinent questions. So by all means ask the previous or existing owner the question but please don't be offended if - when you ask us (having drawn a blank) we politely decline to get into details without the owners permission or if we are simply too busy at the time.
Baz
ooid said:
Hello baz,
Read most of your guides previously, quite useful and informative thanks! Currently looking for a 997 used model, and engine rebuilt by hartech a few years ago. Would it be possible to talk to you to ask about the history of the car before making the purchase?
You have to see Baz's point here - surely if seller cannot prove evidence and invoices from Hartech assume it didn't happen? No genuine seller would spend that sort of money on such a value-enhancing mod without keeping the evidence Read most of your guides previously, quite useful and informative thanks! Currently looking for a 997 used model, and engine rebuilt by hartech a few years ago. Would it be possible to talk to you to ask about the history of the car before making the purchase?
Thanks for that - and can I please just make sure that readers understand that :-
(1) If we fit one or more new cylinders, and/or support and re-round the original Lokasil bores etc - the quality of that work is always to the highest standards and no compromises.
(2) Similarly - any parts we supply, engines we assemble or whole cars we do the whole job on will be to the highest standards and have proven to be extremely reliable.
(3) Sometimes when we have found an engine to be more expensive to fix (even at the basic level) and or the owner cannot afford an acceptable repair - we have offered to buy the car (if FSH and hpi clear etc) and then carried out our top rebuild as a way to ensure as many cars as possible will prove reliable and preserve the reputation for our work and that of the manufacturer and the model involved.
(4) Any car or engine with a Hartech engine rebuild will be worth investigating further and prospective owners would do well to ask the existing (or previous owner if it was in their ownership when rebuilt) questions that will establish the scope of the rebuild and also beneficial to suss out the driving styles and habits and maintenance attitudes - if you can.
(5) Unfortunately most cars now have had several owners and so it is often impossible to assess the type of use throughout the whole history of the car but recognised specialists with good reputations are often very capable of weighing up the past life of a car from various clues they look for and it can be why it is often better to pay a little more from a specialist than buy privately.
Great cars, few with serious problems - well worth considering without too much worry about engines!
Baz
(1) If we fit one or more new cylinders, and/or support and re-round the original Lokasil bores etc - the quality of that work is always to the highest standards and no compromises.
(2) Similarly - any parts we supply, engines we assemble or whole cars we do the whole job on will be to the highest standards and have proven to be extremely reliable.
(3) Sometimes when we have found an engine to be more expensive to fix (even at the basic level) and or the owner cannot afford an acceptable repair - we have offered to buy the car (if FSH and hpi clear etc) and then carried out our top rebuild as a way to ensure as many cars as possible will prove reliable and preserve the reputation for our work and that of the manufacturer and the model involved.
(4) Any car or engine with a Hartech engine rebuild will be worth investigating further and prospective owners would do well to ask the existing (or previous owner if it was in their ownership when rebuilt) questions that will establish the scope of the rebuild and also beneficial to suss out the driving styles and habits and maintenance attitudes - if you can.
(5) Unfortunately most cars now have had several owners and so it is often impossible to assess the type of use throughout the whole history of the car but recognised specialists with good reputations are often very capable of weighing up the past life of a car from various clues they look for and it can be why it is often better to pay a little more from a specialist than buy privately.
Great cars, few with serious problems - well worth considering without too much worry about engines!
Baz
996 C2 seems like great value for money now but doing a search is quite confusing for making it a reliable daily.
From some google led confusion:
- 3.4 is more reliable if you change the IMS bearing to a ceramic one? This is what RPM Technic offer and have a good reputation. The US law suit ended up with an LN engineering bearing, which is different?
- 3.6 has more chance of bore scoring but IMS is already upgraded?
Whats the thoughts now :-)
Use - 10k miles a year including stop start traffic and some b road fun instead of using VW Golf's all the time.
Thanks
From some google led confusion:
- 3.4 is more reliable if you change the IMS bearing to a ceramic one? This is what RPM Technic offer and have a good reputation. The US law suit ended up with an LN engineering bearing, which is different?
- 3.6 has more chance of bore scoring but IMS is already upgraded?
Whats the thoughts now :-)
Use - 10k miles a year including stop start traffic and some b road fun instead of using VW Golf's all the time.
Thanks
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