Cayman S engine failure and how Porsche will deal with you.
Discussion
I bought my 05 S at 65k, it seems to be running fine and I drive it quite hard. (I did stick new brakes on it) I now have around 75k on it.
Those stories are scarey though. Is this why there seems to be a number of burnt outwrecks in Douglad valley breakers? I'm sure mine would catch fire if the engine failed!!!
Those stories are scarey though. Is this why there seems to be a number of burnt outwrecks in Douglad valley breakers? I'm sure mine would catch fire if the engine failed!!!
Oh dear.
This is one of the worst cases I've read for stiffing a customer who should expect better.
This must be well worth a chat with a solicitor & probably a letter using words like "SOGA" and "merchantable quality". It would be interesting if a court would side with the little guy vs the big dealer/Porsche GB. There is certainly plenty of evidence the issue is :
a) common,
b) designed in from when it left the factory,
c) unavoidable by the owner (short of them taking it apart and correcting the design flaws in the engine).
This is one of the worst cases I've read for stiffing a customer who should expect better.
This must be well worth a chat with a solicitor & probably a letter using words like "SOGA" and "merchantable quality". It would be interesting if a court would side with the little guy vs the big dealer/Porsche GB. There is certainly plenty of evidence the issue is :
a) common,
b) designed in from when it left the factory,
c) unavoidable by the owner (short of them taking it apart and correcting the design flaws in the engine).
s2000db said:
So if this is so bad and well documented, then why are there no 'class action' suits in the US, surely lawyers would be clamouring to stick one on them?? Clearly people who threaten legal action are getting dealt with, so why aren't those affected doing it?
If my understanding is correct US Porsches have a 4 year warranty (stand to be corrected) which probably mops up a larger % of fails. As you suggest, in such a litigious environment I would not be surprised if their Goodwill 'Matrix' is more relaxed in the US.s2000db said:
So if this is so bad and well documented, then why are there no 'class action' suits in the US, surely lawyers would be clamouring to stick one on them?? Clearly people who threaten legal action are getting dealt with, so why aren't those affected doing it?
Because (my research in 2008 indicated) in the US they repair them free of charge, with no hassle!vantager said:
s2000db said:
So if this is so bad and well documented, then why are there no 'class action' suits in the US, surely lawyers would be clamouring to stick one on them?? Clearly people who threaten legal action are getting dealt with, so why aren't those affected doing it?
Because (my research in 2008 indicated) in the US they repair them free of charge, with no hassle!Arenki said:
uh oh. oh s
t. watch this space
Just hold on there mate, the reason for my "I think?" after I said that was as I'm not sure & was waiting for someone to confirm this. I seem to remember there being some anecdotal stuff about this on other posts re scored bores but I'm sure it would be noticed with some other signs, such as increased oil consumption.t. watch this spaceThe reason for the exhaust tips iirc being that it is that bank (left hand) that are more apt to score due to the poor performing cooling issues mentioned previously. But don't panic yet! I may be wrong, can anyone more qualified confirm?
vantager said:
Because (my research in 2008 indicated) in the US they repair them free of charge, with no hassle!
Is this really true? I am amazed that these threads appear so often, more so that Porsche GB and now GmBH don't seem concerned.
I find it hard to reconcile those poster saying that these bills are not unreasonable for a 'high performance car'
I run bikes with far higher engine outputs per cc than many a Porsche - in fact all N/A engines, and have never suffered anything like the problems described here. That is from 1000cc to 1400cc bikes that are truly abused. I don't even stick to the service schedules as my mileage is so high I don't see the point, when it goes it will be worthless whatever the service history.
Now, if bike engine manufacturers can cope with the contraints and limitations of getting 150-200 bhp per litre out of their engines, cool them, have them oil tight and let them do 100,000 miles reliably etc, why hasn't Porsche? Forget the comparison with Kia, I think this more pertinent.
The days of accepting second best for luxury goods is becoming a thing of the past. the non-luxury goods are catching these guys up and bring longevity to the party.
I'd suggest 'living on past laurels' is going to be a dangerous game to play.
I find it hard to reconcile those poster saying that these bills are not unreasonable for a 'high performance car'
I run bikes with far higher engine outputs per cc than many a Porsche - in fact all N/A engines, and have never suffered anything like the problems described here. That is from 1000cc to 1400cc bikes that are truly abused. I don't even stick to the service schedules as my mileage is so high I don't see the point, when it goes it will be worthless whatever the service history.
Now, if bike engine manufacturers can cope with the contraints and limitations of getting 150-200 bhp per litre out of their engines, cool them, have them oil tight and let them do 100,000 miles reliably etc, why hasn't Porsche? Forget the comparison with Kia, I think this more pertinent.
The days of accepting second best for luxury goods is becoming a thing of the past. the non-luxury goods are catching these guys up and bring longevity to the party.
I'd suggest 'living on past laurels' is going to be a dangerous game to play.
cragswinter said:
Arenki said:
uh oh. oh st. watch this space
Just hold on there mate, the reason for my "I think?" after I said that was as I'm not sure & was waiting for someone to confirm this. I seem to remember there being some anecdotal stuff about this on other posts re scored bores but I'm sure it would be noticed with some other signs, such as increased oil consumption.t. watch this spaceThe reason for the exhaust tips iirc being that it is that bank (left hand) that are more apt to score due to the poor performing cooling issues mentioned previously. But don't panic yet! I may be wrong, can anyone more qualified confirm?
vantager said:
Because (my research in 2008 indicated) in the US they repair them free of charge, with no hassle!
Is this really true? davemac250 said:
I find it hard to reconcile those posters saying that these bills are not unreasonable for a 'high performance car'
They are often trying to justify the exorbitant cost buying from an OPC to get the warranty plus the exorbitant cost of the associated servicing plus the exorbitant associated costs (£180 battery, £60 wipers, 4 new N tyres every time you have a puncture, etc etc). Each to their own though and some need the peace of mind at any cost but having to have a warranty on a 30K miles engine is farcical. But for as long as Porsche have punters convinced that Porsche make a particularly sophisticated product and are prepared to pay for it, nothing is going to change.The extended warranty is definitely value for money given what could go wrong, but I agree that one should not expect to have to get one in order to head off a seemingly inevitable engine failure so early in the cars life & mileage.
Even if you have the extended warranty it doesn't change the fact that it takes the shine off the ownership experience as a whole.
Even if you have the extended warranty it doesn't change the fact that it takes the shine off the ownership experience as a whole.
colin 82 said:
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
I have to admit im slightly concerned.
Before driving you caymans and other Porsches do you guyd warm the car up etc for a period of time before setting off??
I've always started up and driven straight off just like the handbook suggests, but I keep the throttle very modest until the engine temp is up to normal i.e. treat the engine with respect. I visted the garage and took a look at the engine today, what a mess, actually all the pistons on one bank have been slapping the cylinder walls, bore 4 was moderate and has clearly only just started, but cyliders 5 & 6 are write offs in a big way. None of the engineers on-site could offer up much in the way of explanations apart from from possible oilway blockage (why - and why to all 3 cyliders?) and hence oil starvation to the bores. All piston rings were intact though and didn't seem damaged. The one mechanic was adamant that the piston slap was on the 'firing' side of the piston (his words not mine. I'm not an engineer by trade so I need to understand this in more detail before arriving at an answer to why.I have to admit im slightly concerned.
Before driving you caymans and other Porsches do you guyd warm the car up etc for a period of time before setting off??
mollytherocker said:
Smoking and using excessive oil due to oil getting past the piston rings.
MTR
I've visited the garage and taken a look at the engine. Actually all 3 cylinders in the one bank (cylinders 4,5 & 6)have been hitting the cylinder walls. All piston rings are intact and only one engineer could guess at the problem being blocked oil spray jets (all 3 - why?)MTR
Based on this, I've no confidence in a rebuild. The possibility is it will all happen again and I'm not going to dig into my pocket for a full no-goodwill rebuild, so my love affair with Porsche is over. The world is full of cars with better engines. I've also got a 3 litre BMW 5 series which drinks next to no oil (0.5 litre per 10,000 miles), is driven relatively hard for a 4 door saloon, has done close on 170k and never misses a beat. Frankly from good engineering it's what you expect. Even my old V6 Cavalier managed 175,000 miles before I parted with it and that didn't burn oil either. As an owner, I expect some parts to wear out but an engine should go bang at 28k (and I know it was smoking at 15k or lower so the problem started a long time ago). The world at Porsche seems to have changed for the worse. Why they don't stand up and be counted and stand by their engines (with their massive profit margins) is beyond me. They can still come out of a bad situation smelling of roses if only they would try.
PistonBloke said:
The world at Porsche seems to have changed for the worse. Why they don't stand up and be counted and stand by their engines (with their massive profit margins) is beyond me. They can still come out of a bad situation smelling of roses if only they would try.
Whilst they have more punters into their front doors than leaving, my dear they don't give a damn.A lot of choice out there, but not as fashionable.
masergs said:
Why on a car five years old , three years out of warranty would you expect Porsche to pay for the repairs.Either pay your money and get a warranty or pay your money when it all goes wrong.
This.Topic should read "...and how Porsche will deal with you if you do not have a warranty on a 5 year old car"
If you add up the cost you would have paid for the years of missed warranty, is the delta really that bad? Sounds like a decent deal to me.
Why is a car any different to any other consumable device which is 5 years old? Nothing this complex or highly strung is engineered perfectly.
As for the posters singing the virtues of the older cars well, we all know they were all designed perfectly and cost buttons to run, especially the 964 with its near bulletproof engine and perfect design which, runs for 2 years at a time without maintenance.
Carl_Docklands said:
This.
Topic should read "...and how Porsche will deal with you if you do not have a warranty on a 5 year old car"
If you add up the cost you would have paid for the years of missed warranty, is the delta really that bad? Sounds like a decent deal to me.
Why is a car any different to any other consumable device which is 5 years old? Nothing this complex or highly strung is engineered perfectly.
As for the posters singing the virtues of the older cars well, we all know they were all designed perfectly and cost buttons to run, especially the 964 with its near bulletproof engine and perfect design which, runs for 2 years at a time without maintenance.
I have to agree. Pleading ignorance abuot the extended warranty just doesn't cut it I'm afraid, i'm sure you knew it existed and you chose not to buy it. Even people with the most basic knowledge of cars know what an extended warranty is! You can't criticise Porsche for not mailing you a reminder to your current address (which they didn't have).Topic should read "...and how Porsche will deal with you if you do not have a warranty on a 5 year old car"
If you add up the cost you would have paid for the years of missed warranty, is the delta really that bad? Sounds like a decent deal to me.
Why is a car any different to any other consumable device which is 5 years old? Nothing this complex or highly strung is engineered perfectly.
As for the posters singing the virtues of the older cars well, we all know they were all designed perfectly and cost buttons to run, especially the 964 with its near bulletproof engine and perfect design which, runs for 2 years at a time without maintenance.
Sympathise with your problem, but I think Porsche have actually given you a good offer, and you should take it. Also agree with not stressing yourself out further over this, you took a gamble not to have extended warranty, and now you have a £4k bill. If you took the warranty, you'd be £3k down, so you're only £1k off really. Sounds ok to me.
I have had RMS/FMS leaks on my cars, GT3 included. Porsche have always looked after me, and the warranty has been well worth it. Ultimately they do stand by their cars and offer extended warranty on cars up to 10 years old (which is underwritten externally, but it's still a testament to the quality of the product, if they all blew up then they woldn't make money and wouldn't offer the warranty).
Choice is: £1k a year and peace of mind, or £0 a year and pay if something goes wrong. Porsche have not turned their back on you, as they are offering to pay for thousands of pounds worth of parts, no? They don't legally have to pay ANYTHING and could tell you to sling your hook.
You're asking a lot when you hold no cards, suggest you take the offer once again, get a warranty and enjoy the car....
Whilst I completely agree with you with regard to the OPs particular car (6 years old, well outside of warranty with an extended warranty available but not taken out) the problem he has now experienced has manifested in much newer cars with less mileage. This guy for example bought a used 09 plate Cayman with 6.5k miles on the clock and ended up with the same failure as the OP.
Warranties should cover unexpected incidents that one could not conceivably have anticipated, I'm not sure it's fair to say that one should take out a warranty to protect oneself from a potential ticking time bomb.
Warranties should cover unexpected incidents that one could not conceivably have anticipated, I'm not sure it's fair to say that one should take out a warranty to protect oneself from a potential ticking time bomb.
Durzel said:
Whilst I completely agree with you with regard to the OPs particular car (6 years old, well outside of warranty with an extended warranty available but not taken out) the problem he has now experienced has manifested in much newer cars with less mileage. This guy for example bought a used 09 plate Cayman with 6.5k miles on the clock and ended up with the same failure as the OP.
Warranties should cover unexpected incidents that one could not conceivably have anticipated, I'm not sure it's fair to say that one should take out a warranty to protect oneself from a potential ticking time bomb.
Correct warranties are for items that don't last the lifetime of the car, so sensors, exhaust, parts of suspension, electrics etc.Warranties should cover unexpected incidents that one could not conceivably have anticipated, I'm not sure it's fair to say that one should take out a warranty to protect oneself from a potential ticking time bomb.
However an engine is expected to last the lifetime of the car is said car has been serviced in accordance to manufacturers specification the engine should last a reasonable amount of time, which 6yr or 30,000 miles most definetely is not.
I have a 1999 Peugeot 306 HDI at home, remapped and is now upto 160,000 miles, on its original engine and gearbox. Many other parts of this car has failed such as driveshafts, wheel bearings, sensors etc. which one would expect a warranty to cover but as such these items are affordable as they range typically from £10 - £1000 and without warranty thats the risk you take but its acceptable. Another car was a 525i SE, its engine managed 250,000 miles and is still going, again suspension and other items needed replacing.
What I am saying when buying a 6yr old Porsche with sub 50,000 miles the last thing you expect to fail is the engine, therefor those not taking out warranty do so because they expect just the usual items to fail such as above which are affordable. An engine failure should not be happening on a modern premium brand car end of. So warranty or not Porsche should be dealing with cars in my view on sub 100k miles and less than 10yr old as long as serviced by OPC and on time with no alarming DME information.
The engines should not fail, the fact its a proven design floor, really says to me Porsche should cough up on cars failing which are so young or done so few miles.
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