Cayman S engine failure and how Porsche will deal with you.
Discussion
itsybitsy said:
until someone like hartech starts posting that he is seeing gen2 engines with less than 100k coming through his door with bore scoring due to poor design then we will have this chat again.yes you will always get random failures and poor build quality on early new model cars as seen lately on the 991 but that does not equate to poor design like the m96/7 engine
THE END
THE END
are you 5?_Batty_ said:
itsybitsy said:
until someone like hartech starts posting that he is seeing gen2 engines with less than 100k coming through his door with bore scoring due to poor design then we will have this chat again.yes you will always get random failures and poor build quality on early new model cars as seen lately on the 991 but that does not equate to poor design like the m96/7 engine
THE END
THE END
are you 5?Edited by itsybitsy on Thursday 23 May 23:10
I think the matter of "not fit for purpose" is very relevant here. It is a fact that Toyota, Hyundai and Vauxhall give warranties that extend to 5years/100K miles; 7years and 100K miles and lieftime with 100K miles respectively. This is becoming an industry standard. The days of 12 months and 10K miles are long gone and soon even three years and 60K will be seen as an inferior vehicle warranty.
I think if I were in the position of the OP I would take the matter to the small claims court for up to £10K.
I can give you an example of a sat nav that I had which failed after two years. It only had a 12 months warranty. I sought advice from WHICH as I am a member of the Legal Service. They helped with a letter that I sent to the retailer. I had been trying for 2 months to get anywhere. After sending the letter I received a brand new sat nav with 4 weeks.
I realise that a sat nav has a vast price difference from a Porsche. However, the principles of longevity and fit for purpose are material considerations here. It is also worth noting that in the vehicle handbook it talks about re-cycling of vehicles. The Porsche viewpoint on this is that it is a matter of little consequence as 75% of Porsche vehicles are still on the road.
If a vehicle has been properly maintained from new and has done a nominal mileage, then 28K miles is well below the expectations of an owner.
If this were my vehicle I would be setting out my stall on "not fit for purpose" and advising the dealer of what the future holds if they do not carry out the work FOC. If they refused, I would get the work done by them advising them of the consequences of charging for the work. If they continued to charge, then pay the bill and then claim a refund in the small claims court.
Owner of two Toyotas, a Merc and a Porcshe.
I think if I were in the position of the OP I would take the matter to the small claims court for up to £10K.
I can give you an example of a sat nav that I had which failed after two years. It only had a 12 months warranty. I sought advice from WHICH as I am a member of the Legal Service. They helped with a letter that I sent to the retailer. I had been trying for 2 months to get anywhere. After sending the letter I received a brand new sat nav with 4 weeks.
I realise that a sat nav has a vast price difference from a Porsche. However, the principles of longevity and fit for purpose are material considerations here. It is also worth noting that in the vehicle handbook it talks about re-cycling of vehicles. The Porsche viewpoint on this is that it is a matter of little consequence as 75% of Porsche vehicles are still on the road.
If a vehicle has been properly maintained from new and has done a nominal mileage, then 28K miles is well below the expectations of an owner.
If this were my vehicle I would be setting out my stall on "not fit for purpose" and advising the dealer of what the future holds if they do not carry out the work FOC. If they refused, I would get the work done by them advising them of the consequences of charging for the work. If they continued to charge, then pay the bill and then claim a refund in the small claims court.
Owner of two Toyotas, a Merc and a Porcshe.
Due to change cars soon, and been looking at Cayman's today, and thought I'd Google 'Cayman problems'.
That bought me to this thread; now whilst I accept that most vehicles have problems, Porsche's attitude has guaranteed they won't be seeing any of my hard earned!
Ironic; the 911 series was always lauded as the only everyday supercar; not any more it seems.
Just had a trawl around eBay looking at what issues the second hand ones have endured, and there's a couple on there with lowish miles engine rebuilds in the detailed description!
That bought me to this thread; now whilst I accept that most vehicles have problems, Porsche's attitude has guaranteed they won't be seeing any of my hard earned!
Ironic; the 911 series was always lauded as the only everyday supercar; not any more it seems.
Just had a trawl around eBay looking at what issues the second hand ones have endured, and there's a couple on there with lowish miles engine rebuilds in the detailed description!
I collect mine on Saturday, first Porsche, '07 S with 38k. I took advice from among others, Peter Morgan & Steve Bull, both of whom said if the car looks right, sounds right & has a full history with everything done how it should be, when it should be there's no reason to shy away. So I bought it.
Whilst it mightn't be statistically relevant, my own experiences with water-cooled Porsche engines have all been positive and I think it's appropriate to post a 'positive' story to counter the negative ones we hear so much about.
Over the years, I owned a 3.4 996, a 3.6 996 and a 3.8 997S.1, all of which had the 'unreliable' M96/7 engines. Collectively, I put over 100,000 miles on the 3 cars and never had any major engine issues whatsoever. All 3 were driven very hard indeed too (where legal and appropriate) and the only 'special care' they had was oil changes every 8-10,000 miles and no full throttle or high rpm until the oil was fully up to temperature. I think the regular oil changes, in particular, are very important. Following the Porsche recommended intervals is just asking for trouble - even the best synthetic oils are already incredibly badly degraded after only 10,000 miles (just look at what lands in the bucket as it's being changed)! If that mess was left in there for another 10,000 miles, it wouldn't be lubricating much of anything: just what's needed for bearings to fail and pistons to pick-up on bore walls.
Whilst I've been fortunate with engines, for me the Porsche Achilles heel has been manual gearboxes. My 996 3.4 lunched a gearbox as did my 997S.1 In both cases it was bearings that let go and the damage to the rest of the 'boxes once they were full of bits of exploded bearing rendered them beyond any kind of sensible, economic repair. Luckily, in both cases I was able to locate good used 'boxes, but they still cost a small fortune to replace. (And before anyone asks: no, I've never 'dumped' the clutch on any of my cars, not even once, let alone regularly. Doesn't mean previous owners didn't though)!
I guess the sensible advice, if you're thinking of buying a used Porsche, is to make sure you have either a warranty (albeit some of the older water-cooled cars are no longer eligible) or a slush fund in case a major problem does arise. Remember, these were expensive cars new and will cost 'expensive car' money to run and maintain properly - especially if anything major does go wrong. Whilst the entry price to Porsche ownership might be low now (and the amazing driving experience makes them even more attractive) the rest of the experience sometimes isn't. But go into Porsche ownership carefully (& properly prepared) and the rewards will really be worth the effort.
Over the years, I owned a 3.4 996, a 3.6 996 and a 3.8 997S.1, all of which had the 'unreliable' M96/7 engines. Collectively, I put over 100,000 miles on the 3 cars and never had any major engine issues whatsoever. All 3 were driven very hard indeed too (where legal and appropriate) and the only 'special care' they had was oil changes every 8-10,000 miles and no full throttle or high rpm until the oil was fully up to temperature. I think the regular oil changes, in particular, are very important. Following the Porsche recommended intervals is just asking for trouble - even the best synthetic oils are already incredibly badly degraded after only 10,000 miles (just look at what lands in the bucket as it's being changed)! If that mess was left in there for another 10,000 miles, it wouldn't be lubricating much of anything: just what's needed for bearings to fail and pistons to pick-up on bore walls.
Whilst I've been fortunate with engines, for me the Porsche Achilles heel has been manual gearboxes. My 996 3.4 lunched a gearbox as did my 997S.1 In both cases it was bearings that let go and the damage to the rest of the 'boxes once they were full of bits of exploded bearing rendered them beyond any kind of sensible, economic repair. Luckily, in both cases I was able to locate good used 'boxes, but they still cost a small fortune to replace. (And before anyone asks: no, I've never 'dumped' the clutch on any of my cars, not even once, let alone regularly. Doesn't mean previous owners didn't though)!
I guess the sensible advice, if you're thinking of buying a used Porsche, is to make sure you have either a warranty (albeit some of the older water-cooled cars are no longer eligible) or a slush fund in case a major problem does arise. Remember, these were expensive cars new and will cost 'expensive car' money to run and maintain properly - especially if anything major does go wrong. Whilst the entry price to Porsche ownership might be low now (and the amazing driving experience makes them even more attractive) the rest of the experience sometimes isn't. But go into Porsche ownership carefully (& properly prepared) and the rewards will really be worth the effort.
Itsybitsy has provided some excellent comment on this subject and the previous information I provided from the link he mentioned on the previous pages is still relevant http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I expect the number of failures with Gen 2 to be much lower than Gen 1 but there are still a few out there which the change in piston coating is largely responsible for.
Having said that the difficulty is also designing a piston that will have enough taper and ovality to fit the bore perfectly when delivering BOTH 300 bhp and also say 30 bhp (driving along accelerating up to 90 mph or say 30 mph constant speed). Well you cannot - you have to design it for the highest output and it will always be running with more clearance at any other output below that (which with average speeds worked out from running hours and distances of around 35 MPH being common - the piston is always well below the ideal shape it has to be designed to run at very occasionally).
The higher levels of torque and BMEP are achieved by the engine producing more BMEP and the temperature of the ignited fuel is also somewhat proportional to the BMEP (as volume is the same) so as you have a bigger variation in power you also have a bigger variation in the temperature of the piston and hence the shape and sizes it expands to.
The faster a car can go - the greater the problem - because unless it is used exclusively on a track - for most of its life the pistons are too cool and too slack for the output.
Both Alusil and Lokasil have silicon particles that can become detached from the bore and sit between the piston face and the cylinder bore where they can cause wear and eventually scoring. This wear is reduced with the original ferrous piston coatings that have a surface hardness roughly twice as hard as present screen printed or sprayed "plastic coatings" but the more modern "plastic" coatings can degrade quicker and when they do scoring becomes more likely.
Alusil holds on to the silicon particles better and for longer than Lokasil but there is a random influence from both caused by the final honing. In both systems the particles are diamond honed and this leaves some honed particles well imbedded in the matrix (holding them securely) but some others will be honed so the last remaining piece of silicon is almost ready to fall away from the matrix and when it eventually does it can damage the piston coating.
Generally higher engine speeds reduce piston to cylinder bore surface to surface loading and so the worst scenario causing what is generally referred to as "scuffing" is high torque at low speeds and those driving at higher speeds may well last longer as will those with low power outputs at low speeds.
The worst scenario is therefore modest driving speeds with high acceleration and not pure high revs or high speed driving.
Nikasil is not like Alusil or Lokasil because the silicon is plated into a homogeneous tube with nickel bonded to the alloy outer cylinder wall - that holds all the material in such a way that there are no particles to become dislodged or fall out and therefore nothing gets trapped between the piston and cylinder wall and hence almost any coating (or no coating at all) will work, It is more expensive but by far the best solution and hence has been used successfully in Porsche's more powerful turbo and sports GT and cup car engines for years.
Of course if any engine suffers lack of coolant the piston will still get too hot and grow too big and jam (or seize) into the cylinder - but under all normal running conditions there is nothing to beat Nikasil yet on the market for quality, longevity, heat transfer and performance and that is why we use it on Alloy liners (as used by Porsche themselves) in our rebuilds and why we have invested in brand new CNC machinery to try and reduce manufacturing costs enough to compete with any other solutions on the market that we not only consider inferior but are still replacing regularly when the cheaper options fail.
Baz
I expect the number of failures with Gen 2 to be much lower than Gen 1 but there are still a few out there which the change in piston coating is largely responsible for.
Having said that the difficulty is also designing a piston that will have enough taper and ovality to fit the bore perfectly when delivering BOTH 300 bhp and also say 30 bhp (driving along accelerating up to 90 mph or say 30 mph constant speed). Well you cannot - you have to design it for the highest output and it will always be running with more clearance at any other output below that (which with average speeds worked out from running hours and distances of around 35 MPH being common - the piston is always well below the ideal shape it has to be designed to run at very occasionally).
The higher levels of torque and BMEP are achieved by the engine producing more BMEP and the temperature of the ignited fuel is also somewhat proportional to the BMEP (as volume is the same) so as you have a bigger variation in power you also have a bigger variation in the temperature of the piston and hence the shape and sizes it expands to.
The faster a car can go - the greater the problem - because unless it is used exclusively on a track - for most of its life the pistons are too cool and too slack for the output.
Both Alusil and Lokasil have silicon particles that can become detached from the bore and sit between the piston face and the cylinder bore where they can cause wear and eventually scoring. This wear is reduced with the original ferrous piston coatings that have a surface hardness roughly twice as hard as present screen printed or sprayed "plastic coatings" but the more modern "plastic" coatings can degrade quicker and when they do scoring becomes more likely.
Alusil holds on to the silicon particles better and for longer than Lokasil but there is a random influence from both caused by the final honing. In both systems the particles are diamond honed and this leaves some honed particles well imbedded in the matrix (holding them securely) but some others will be honed so the last remaining piece of silicon is almost ready to fall away from the matrix and when it eventually does it can damage the piston coating.
Generally higher engine speeds reduce piston to cylinder bore surface to surface loading and so the worst scenario causing what is generally referred to as "scuffing" is high torque at low speeds and those driving at higher speeds may well last longer as will those with low power outputs at low speeds.
The worst scenario is therefore modest driving speeds with high acceleration and not pure high revs or high speed driving.
Nikasil is not like Alusil or Lokasil because the silicon is plated into a homogeneous tube with nickel bonded to the alloy outer cylinder wall - that holds all the material in such a way that there are no particles to become dislodged or fall out and therefore nothing gets trapped between the piston and cylinder wall and hence almost any coating (or no coating at all) will work, It is more expensive but by far the best solution and hence has been used successfully in Porsche's more powerful turbo and sports GT and cup car engines for years.
Of course if any engine suffers lack of coolant the piston will still get too hot and grow too big and jam (or seize) into the cylinder - but under all normal running conditions there is nothing to beat Nikasil yet on the market for quality, longevity, heat transfer and performance and that is why we use it on Alloy liners (as used by Porsche themselves) in our rebuilds and why we have invested in brand new CNC machinery to try and reduce manufacturing costs enough to compete with any other solutions on the market that we not only consider inferior but are still replacing regularly when the cheaper options fail.
Baz
hartech said:
Itsybitsy has provided some excellent comment on this subject and the previous information I provided from the link he mentioned on the previous pages is still relevant http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I expect the number of failures with Gen 2 to be much lower than Gen 1 but there are still a few out there which the change in piston coating is largely responsible for.
Having said that the difficulty is also designing a piston that will have enough taper and ovality to fit the bore perfectly when delivering BOTH 300 bhp and also say 30 bhp (driving along accelerating up to 90 mph or say 30 mph constant speed). Well you cannot - you have to design it for the highest output and it will always be running with more clearance at any other output below that (which with average speeds worked out from running hours and distances of around 35 MPH being common - the piston is always well below the ideal shape it has to be designed to run at very occasionally).
The higher levels of torque and BMEP are achieved by the engine producing more BMEP and the temperature of the ignited fuel is also somewhat proportional to the BMEP (as volume is the same) so as you have a bigger variation in power you also have a bigger variation in the temperature of the piston and hence the shape and sizes it expands to.
The faster a car can go - the greater the problem - because unless it is used exclusively on a track - for most of its life the pistons are too cool and too slack for the output.
Both Alusil and Lokasil have silicon particles that can become detached from the bore and sit between the piston face and the cylinder bore where they can cause wear and eventually scoring. This wear is reduced with the original ferrous piston coatings that have a surface hardness roughly twice as hard as present screen printed or sprayed "plastic coatings" but the more modern "plastic" coatings can degrade quicker and when they do scoring becomes more likely.
Alusil holds on to the silicon particles better and for longer than Lokasil but there is a random influence from both caused by the final honing. In both systems the particles are diamond honed and this leaves some honed particles well imbedded in the matrix (holding them securely) but some others will be honed so the last remaining piece of silicon is almost ready to fall away from the matrix and when it eventually does it can damage the piston coating.
Generally higher engine speeds reduce piston to cylinder bore surface to surface loading and so the worst scenario causing what is generally referred to as "scuffing" is high torque at low speeds and those driving at higher speeds may well last longer as will those with low power outputs at low speeds.
The worst scenario is therefore modest driving speeds with high acceleration and not pure high revs or high speed driving.
Nikasil is not like Alusil or Lokasil because the silicon is plated into a homogeneous tube with nickel bonded to the alloy outer cylinder wall - that holds all the material in such a way that there are no particles to become dislodged or fall out and therefore nothing gets trapped between the piston and cylinder wall and hence almost any coating (or no coating at all) will work, It is more expensive but by far the best solution and hence has been used successfully in Porsche's more powerful turbo and sports GT and cup car engines for years.
Of course if any engine suffers lack of coolant the piston will still get too hot and grow too big and jam (or seize) into the cylinder - but under all normal running conditions there is nothing to beat Nikasil yet on the market for quality, longevity, heat transfer and performance and that is why we use it on Alloy liners (as used by Porsche themselves) in our rebuilds and why we have invested in brand new CNC machinery to try and reduce manufacturing costs enough to compete with any other solutions on the market that we not only consider inferior but are still replacing regularly when the cheaper options fail.
Baz
Thanks Baz. Insightful comments as always. So in fact, driving the car properly (with mechanical sympathy when cold etc), regularly is far better than pottering about all the time!I expect the number of failures with Gen 2 to be much lower than Gen 1 but there are still a few out there which the change in piston coating is largely responsible for.
Having said that the difficulty is also designing a piston that will have enough taper and ovality to fit the bore perfectly when delivering BOTH 300 bhp and also say 30 bhp (driving along accelerating up to 90 mph or say 30 mph constant speed). Well you cannot - you have to design it for the highest output and it will always be running with more clearance at any other output below that (which with average speeds worked out from running hours and distances of around 35 MPH being common - the piston is always well below the ideal shape it has to be designed to run at very occasionally).
The higher levels of torque and BMEP are achieved by the engine producing more BMEP and the temperature of the ignited fuel is also somewhat proportional to the BMEP (as volume is the same) so as you have a bigger variation in power you also have a bigger variation in the temperature of the piston and hence the shape and sizes it expands to.
The faster a car can go - the greater the problem - because unless it is used exclusively on a track - for most of its life the pistons are too cool and too slack for the output.
Both Alusil and Lokasil have silicon particles that can become detached from the bore and sit between the piston face and the cylinder bore where they can cause wear and eventually scoring. This wear is reduced with the original ferrous piston coatings that have a surface hardness roughly twice as hard as present screen printed or sprayed "plastic coatings" but the more modern "plastic" coatings can degrade quicker and when they do scoring becomes more likely.
Alusil holds on to the silicon particles better and for longer than Lokasil but there is a random influence from both caused by the final honing. In both systems the particles are diamond honed and this leaves some honed particles well imbedded in the matrix (holding them securely) but some others will be honed so the last remaining piece of silicon is almost ready to fall away from the matrix and when it eventually does it can damage the piston coating.
Generally higher engine speeds reduce piston to cylinder bore surface to surface loading and so the worst scenario causing what is generally referred to as "scuffing" is high torque at low speeds and those driving at higher speeds may well last longer as will those with low power outputs at low speeds.
The worst scenario is therefore modest driving speeds with high acceleration and not pure high revs or high speed driving.
Nikasil is not like Alusil or Lokasil because the silicon is plated into a homogeneous tube with nickel bonded to the alloy outer cylinder wall - that holds all the material in such a way that there are no particles to become dislodged or fall out and therefore nothing gets trapped between the piston and cylinder wall and hence almost any coating (or no coating at all) will work, It is more expensive but by far the best solution and hence has been used successfully in Porsche's more powerful turbo and sports GT and cup car engines for years.
Of course if any engine suffers lack of coolant the piston will still get too hot and grow too big and jam (or seize) into the cylinder - but under all normal running conditions there is nothing to beat Nikasil yet on the market for quality, longevity, heat transfer and performance and that is why we use it on Alloy liners (as used by Porsche themselves) in our rebuilds and why we have invested in brand new CNC machinery to try and reduce manufacturing costs enough to compete with any other solutions on the market that we not only consider inferior but are still replacing regularly when the cheaper options fail.
Baz
dingocooke said:
Due to change cars soon, and been looking at Cayman's today, and thought I'd Google 'Cayman problems'.
That bought me to this thread; now whilst I accept that most vehicles have problems, Porsche's attitude has guaranteed they won't be seeing any of my hard earned!
Ironic; the 911 series was always lauded as the only everyday supercar; not any more it seems.
Just had a trawl around eBay looking at what issues the second hand ones have endured, and there's a couple on there with lowish miles engine rebuilds in the detailed description!
This is one of the reasons that I eventually bought an Evora rather than a Cayman. Ok the interior is not quite as well put together as the Cayman but dealer and Lotus service has been exemplory as has reliability (I am doing 20k miles pa)That bought me to this thread; now whilst I accept that most vehicles have problems, Porsche's attitude has guaranteed they won't be seeing any of my hard earned!
Ironic; the 911 series was always lauded as the only everyday supercar; not any more it seems.
Just had a trawl around eBay looking at what issues the second hand ones have endured, and there's a couple on there with lowish miles engine rebuilds in the detailed description!
F
Yes EDO and we see a greater proportion of tiptronics than we expected until we realised that by usually starting off in second - there are relatively low revs and high torque situations ideal for bore scoring - better to set off in 1st and of course when dawdling @ 30 to 50 - lazily just opening thricking the switch to change down is also a less reliable choice.
Baz
Baz
Ran a 987c Cayman S for three years between the age of 3 and 6 years old (30-80k miles). You can see what it cost me and a full breakdown of breakdowns in my profile (under My Garage).
Would thoroughly recommend the car to drive but I won't be going back in to Porsche ownership again unless it has a warranty.
Good luck with your search!
Would thoroughly recommend the car to drive but I won't be going back in to Porsche ownership again unless it has a warranty.
Good luck with your search!
RudeDog said:
Ran a 987c Cayman S for three years between the age of 3 and 6 years old (30-80k miles). You can see what it cost me and a full breakdown of breakdowns in my profile (under My Garage).
Would thoroughly recommend the car to drive but I won't be going back in to Porsche ownership again unless it has a warranty.
Good luck with your search!
Hells bells! I bet you could have leased a new one for half the cost!Would thoroughly recommend the car to drive but I won't be going back in to Porsche ownership again unless it has a warranty.
Good luck with your search!
RudeDog said:
Ran a 987c Cayman S for three years between the age of 3 and 6 years old (30-80k miles). You can see what it cost me and a full breakdown of breakdowns in my profile (under My Garage).
Wow - what happened?Then again £800 per year for the extended Porsche Approved warranty and Minor/Major service for £600/900 adds up too...
Edited by EricE on Thursday 6th November 19:31
Have had the 987 RS60 Spyder over 5 years and 57k miles and not a single issue. Not one. Zero.
I have never had a warranty on it after the manufacturer one expired, and it gets driven properly and pampered well - e.g. Oil change every 6 months etc.
Best thing I have ever bought and most reliable car I ever owned.
Ps: No bore scoring here, though I have experienced other scoring
I have never had a warranty on it after the manufacturer one expired, and it gets driven properly and pampered well - e.g. Oil change every 6 months etc.
Best thing I have ever bought and most reliable car I ever owned.
Ps: No bore scoring here, though I have experienced other scoring
Edited by LITRBL on Saturday 8th November 14:51
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