996 reliability

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Discussion

ismail omar

9 posts

226 months

Monday 9th May 2005
quotequote all
Many thanks for the replies ,friends.
The claim by Porsche is that i selected a wrong gear.That would then be as u point out,mechanical over-rev.
How can porsche prove that i selected a wrong gear? what if their computer reports were doctored to make that claim.What if there were other causes for the engine failure as well? Porsche SA has frequently given customers a difficult time with their driveplan 5yr/100 000km warranty claims.Very few stand up and complain in South Africa. I might be the first to take Porsche SA to the highest legal court of the land.
Assuming i did mis shift ,surely the average driver is expected to mistakenly shift into a wrong gear a few times in the 75 000 KMs travelled. The driveplan should acknowledge that. According to the drive plan rules, driver abuse is the only time when porsche SA is not obligated to cover repair costs.

i need all the help i can get here to make sense of what is happening.

nel

4,763 posts

240 months

Monday 9th May 2005
quotequote all
I think it would be a bit harsh to expect a car manufacturer to replace a buzzed engine at their cost. I don't mean to be cruel, but saying that "surely the average driver is expected to mistakenly shift into a wrong gear a few times in the 75 000 KMs travelled" is a bit like saying the average driver is expected to mistake the accelerator for the brake and drive his car into a wall.

Good luck, but if they have clear evidence that you've mechanically over-revved the engine then I'd say that technically you don't have a leg to stand on. Your only hope may be making enough of a stink with the press or pleading with Pork SA for a goodwill gesture.

ismail omar

9 posts

226 months

Thursday 12th May 2005
quotequote all
Hi Nel,thanks for your reply.
I am not sure of the value a press attention will make.Well i would not want to give Pork SA free advertising space.Insurance for accidents do cover vehicle body damage. The drive plan should cover mechanical accidents, assuming it was a mechanical accident on my side.I should have been informed at the time of purchase that such a mechanical accident is not covered and i could have the possibility of seeking insurance cover for such type of driver mistake. I should have been told that Pork does not have the technology to prevent mechanical over rev in their vehiclees.That the over rev limiter will not work in a mis shift environment.That this is one area where Pork is vulnerable in and so is the drive plan exposed. I must surely be informed of the risks at the time of purchase. Furtehrmore ,can someone please explain how Pork can conclusively prove their theory.What data do they use and how do they infer from the data to reach a judgement that they are not liable for the repair.
Lastly, every time that my pork when in for a service , i should have been informed of the engine data reports from my vehicle to warn me of over revs recorded . In this way , i could have been pre warned that i have mis shifted into mechanical over rev and further mis shifts will lead to catastrophic damage. I could have then sold the car or have the engine repaired before it goes dead.

Vesuvius996

35,829 posts

270 months

Friday 13th May 2005
quotequote all


Hmmm. You make interesting points, Ismail but I think you will struggle.

Surely the over-rev is prevented by the rev limiter (fuel and ignition cut out) when going up the rev range acclerating hard, but changing DOWN too soon will mecahnically over-rev the engine,

i.e if you're accelerating hard and bounce off the limter at 8000 or whatever then it won't rev beyond that becuase the computer shuts off the fuel.

BUT if you change down to 2nd from 5th at 160 mph then the fuel and ignition cutoff matters not one jot, the mechanical connection between road, tyres, drive shaft gearbox and engine will spin the engine beyond its limits until the point it lets go.

This is why it isn't possible to over rev a Tip car because the computer thinks "hang on he wants second and I'm doing 130 mph, that means I will over rev when the gear is selected, so he can't have second yet....."

A manual box of course can be shifted from 5th to 2nd, and of you manage that then when the clutch is let out the engine will be forced to spin up to 20,000rpm or whatever, and the damage is done.

The telemetry in the car will show a huge number, caused by "machnical" over rev caused by the transmission of the kinetic energy from the car moving through the transmission and engine.

I think your best bet is goodwil from Porsche SA.

Good luck.


>> Edited by Vesuvius996 on Friday 13th May 09:22

>> Edited by Vesuvius996 on Friday 13th May 09:23

ismail omar

9 posts

226 months

Saturday 14th May 2005
quotequote all
Thank you for the reply.
My lawyer (LLM ) and me (MD,MBA,PhD) may just work to convince the High Court.This is a hypothesis and i must still test. I am losing serious money without the porsche as my daily usage vehicle. The porsche was my mobile office. I held my business meetingts in the vehicle.I transported serious seasoned business persons in my vehicle.I am now without the vehicle for 4 months. I have had to take a job again as a fixed office based medical doctor so that i could a) fund the high court exercise and b) inability to operate my only other business: the mobile doctors office was loss of income. Meaning my subsistence was at stake. I have had to curtail my lifestyle. I was forced to cancel commercially viable and profitable business transactions and cash flows.I mean, my vehicle damage was cause for serious unemployment issues for many a retrenched staff at the business's that depended upon reliable mobility.
In fact , the porsche i purchaed was at business school graduation. The porsche was my entry advantage into formal corporate practice.
A text book can be written on the level of customer satisfaction at Porsche AG. The disjunct between technical precision and customer value management is evident and this does not bode well for shareholder value creation at the publicly listed entity. If their business model is flawed, which i can reasonably prove for a Multinational, nich, upper quartile ,developed entity, and our lawyer introduces the legal perspective, perhaps we may deny ourselves the opportunity for goodwill gesture.Goodwill cannot be demanded!!!!

superlightr

12,842 posts

262 months

Saturday 14th May 2005
quotequote all
What a predicament !

I wouldnt go down the route of loss of lifestyle/business etc, that really is consequenstial loss if it could be argued as a true loss -v- mitigation of getting another car albeit not a pork.

Concentrate on the engine arguement, keep it simple and reasonable and your more likely to come over to a court as a reasonable person cought between a rock and a hard place which may then increases the chances of you being liked by the court and being trusted and hopefully wining.

Good luck

nel

4,763 posts

240 months

Saturday 14th May 2005
quotequote all
ismail omar said:
Insurance for accidents do cover vehicle body damage. The drive plan should cover mechanical accidents, assuming it was a mechanical accident on my side.I should have been informed at the time of purchase that such a mechanical accident is not covered and i could have the possibility of seeking insurance cover for such type of driver mistake. I should have been told that Pork does not have the technology to prevent mechanical over rev in their vehiclees.That the over rev limiter will not work in a mis shift environment.That this is one area where Pork is vulnerable in and so is the drive plan exposed. I must surely be informed of the risks at the time of purchase.



Hi Ismail - yes normal car insurance covers vehicle body damage, but the devil is in the detail. Every insurer has their fair share of weasel speak, i.e. the small print! Possibly driving your vehicle into a wall while drunk would not be covered for instance. It is the responsibility of the buyer to read the small print and accept the contract that they are signing, caveat emptor and all that.

In this case, the small print of the drive plan seems to cover Porsche against driver error induced engine failures. The annoying thing for you is that possibly the engine would have failed in this manner without being over-revved but the burden of proof will not be in your favour. Pork SA will have the choice of settling out of court to avoid the negative publicity or pursuing the case. In the latter case, I imagine that they will produce a credible, independent auto-expert witness who will state that the engine failure mode is consistent with mechanical damage due to driver-induced over-revving, as detected when interrogating the ECU. Given that this is specifically not covered by the drive plan, you won't have a leg to stand on.

Your one advantage is that car manufacturers don't like this sort of publicity, so may settle out of court. Personally I think a good result for you would be if they split the engine replacement costs 50:50 just to get you off their backs.

I do not know of any manual gear box car that would be capable of protecting against driver induced mechanical over-rev - anyone out there heard of a system? Theoretically it would be feasible to engineer a protective system but it would probably create more risks to the driver all to save a lump of metal. I'm thinking of things like using the brakes to lock up the driven wheels or explosive bolts disconnecting the driveline!! Aren't you guys glad I don't work for Porsche!

Best of luck.

>> Edited by nel on Saturday 14th May 11:39

Vesuvius996

35,829 posts

270 months

Saturday 14th May 2005
quotequote all


SuperlightR has it.

I suspect that you are trying to claim "consequential losses" and you won't be able to, although I am qualified as a barrister in UK only so the law may differ where you are.

I still think your best course of action would be to make a gentlemanly approach to Porsche. They may surprise you if you come across as a firm but reaonable guy. Splitting the difference, for example they pay for the engine and you pay the labout for fitting, would be a good outcome.

If you are engaging the services of one of my professional colleagues then I suspect that at £300 an hour you'd be better off spending it on getting the car fixed up, as there is no guarantee that you would recoup all of the litigation costs even if your claim is successful.

Anyway, genuine wishes of good luck from me. Having an engine go is a worst case secnario and I hope to christ I never have to test the Porsche UK warranty like this.

Best
996V

>> Edited by Vesuvius996 on Saturday 14th May 11:34

>> Edited by Vesuvius996 on Saturday 14th May 11:35

ismail omar

9 posts

226 months

Monday 27th March 2006
quotequote all
Hi All , i own a 2003 ,C4S, 911 manual
The last time i contributed to this forum was in May 2005....To briefly summarise, at 75 000 kms, the engine was replaced due to engine failure ..i ahd to pay for the costs as Porsche SA declared a case of Driver Abuse...My car left Porsche SA with a new engine in June 2005...20 000 kms into the new engne,end December 2005, an engine check light appeared,also with misfiring at around 5000 revs...after about 10 trips to the Porsche workshop,with 10 different parts replaced, the probem still persisted...In January 2006, the engine started heating up in traffic, and on the 10 February 2006, the radiatior blew up,radiator hoses bust and the radiator fan burnt...i am know at 95 000 kms, the new engine has only 20 000 kms...the car has been repaired at Porsche SA cost(I suspect they took the engine check light bulb out to take away the problem) and am ready to drive again ,to average around 5000 kms a month......
Porsche SA has declared that they will not
1. renew driveplan
2. service or mantain or repair the car anymore
3. trade in the vehicle for anotehr vehicle

Like during the May 2005 experience, they claim i have abused the vehicle...They say i have gone into rev range 1 , 65 000 times since 2003...They dont want to disclose how many times this has happened since the new engine was installed...They cant tell me what wa sthe cause of the engine check light except to say that the cause was linked to the radiators being blocked or radiator fan not working?

Can some one help me here....South Africa has only one Porsche approved dealership and so i am stuck with a car and no porsche parts or service/repair back up...Does some one have an email address and contact persons name for Porsche AG ....Porsche SA is abusing me as customer....Who can i complain to ? I used a solicitor last year to claim back the engine costs , but i failed bcause the legal costs were mounting and legal costs were going to exceed the costs of the engine replacement....This time around, i was not asked to pay for the repair costs, but i am told by Porsche SA that after 5000 kms ,when the driveplan expires, and if the engine checklight re appears, they will not cover the repairs....It means that i must send my car to Germany for services and repairs etc....Their is only one Porsche dealership in Africa...

aceparts_com

3,724 posts

240 months

Tuesday 28th March 2006
quotequote all
Vesuvius996 said:

although I am qualified as a barrister in UK only....


That's why you're so 'defensive' regarding your 996 vs 993 arguments

nel

4,763 posts

240 months

Tuesday 28th March 2006
quotequote all
Blimey - where to start? With only a single dealership you're a captive, and if they won't continue the mechanical cover then you're a bit stuffed. You seem to either have a "bad" car and bad luck or a driving style capable of challenging German engineering and winning.

Choices are:
- keep running the porker, try to find another provider of mechanical insurance or accept that there may be big bills coming.
- sell it now while it's working and get a more robust car that has a network of SA dealers.

Bets of luck.

ismail omar

9 posts

226 months

Tuesday 28th March 2006
quotequote all
nel
i am taking Pork SA to the cleaners........i have calculated that it will cost me 10 000 US dollars (excl fuel and tyres) to keep my car on the road per year,i will factor the extra cost into my expenditure and generate income to meet the new cost,besides i am totally unproductive without the porsche.....i am claiming customer abuse by Pork SA...I will be taking the victim role, making it my life passion to surface and highlight the poor service i receive from Pork SA...I will keep my car as a symbol of my resistance to Pork SA...I will try and try and pray and pray that Porsche AG revokes the import/dealership licence of Pork SA and allows a new owner to run,control and manage the dealership...a lone voice in the wilderness, someday someone will hear...who knows, i may be making a bid to take over the Porsche SA franchise...There is a fundamental rule in business: The customer is always right...if however the customer is technically wrong, the customer must be accorded the highest respect.Thats the least a compnay can do...Dont treat a customer like a child..the explanations i get from Pork SA make no technical or business sense...i will not spend a cent on legal fees as i have paid my dues last year...i do however expect Pork SA to send me a legal letter for bad mouthing them...i look forward to that as i have an executive MBA from a world class university and am doing my PhD on customer value...i will defend myself with my research while they must pay for their legal bills.....maybe an anti pork SA website to start off with,inviting other Pork SA abused customers to join...at best, Pork SA must pay me to keep quiet...will it work? is it worth a try?

mattiselvis

991 posts

220 months

Tuesday 28th March 2006
quotequote all
ismail omar said:
nel
i look forward to that as i have an executive MBA from a world class university and am doing my PhD on customer value... is it worth a try?


We have an adage in this country: never underestimate the Germans.

ismail omar

9 posts

226 months

Tuesday 28th March 2006
quotequote all
Nel
you seem to be quite helpful ..lets get a bit more technical ....i just picked up my car from the dealership after they have informed me that they have resolved the problems with the blinking checklight...The car was at the workshop from the 10 February 2006 ...Before that ,the car was in the workshop more than 5 times in Decmber 2005 and January 2006 to diagnose the cause of the checklight..
What could be the causes of the check light blinking...this only happened at 6000 revs...Prior to 10 Feb, this happened from 5000 revs.....please explain these phenomena too?

nel

4,763 posts

240 months

Wednesday 29th March 2006
quotequote all
I don't know the 996 control system at all, so have no idea what might start the warning lights flashing. Vibration, emissions levels, knock detection? Have you had any "over-rev" accidents with the new engine?

ismail omar

9 posts

226 months

Wednesday 29th March 2006
quotequote all
Nel,
vibrations where ? i can remember that before my checklight woes had begun, i had a puncture on the right front tyre...the local dealership did not have stock of the Pirelli Pzero which is what the manufacturer recommends ....However they had a very cheap tyre called Nankang...with a V speed rating ...This means the tyre is not suitable for high speeds....The other 3 tyres are Pirelli....The Nankang dimensions are exactly the same as the Pirelli in all respects...THe thread pattern ,however , is different...Could this be the cause?

Are u talking about intra engine reasons or reasons from faults external to the Engine?

Please respond asap as i am soon having a meeting with Porsche SA , Porsche Africa, and Porsche Germany...Perhaps my vehicle will be taken back to the plant and i will be replaced with a 997 911 TT...Then i will have enough power to stay below 5000 revs and enjoy high performance driving at its purest!!!

nel

4,763 posts

240 months

Wednesday 29th March 2006
quotequote all
Yep - only talking about phenomenoms related to the engine. Suspension, tyre or steering issues would not set off rev-related warning lights.

Good luck at your meeting. If this isn't a wind up and you end up with a 997tt then be gentle with it...

UK952

763 posts

258 months

Thursday 30th March 2006
quotequote all
rev range 1 65,000 times - every time you change down?

Check light on - misfiring at 5,000rpm?
Doesn't it say drive gently to nearest dealer when check engine light comes on?
I wouldn't say 5,000 rpm is gentle.

I would think the fan went first causing over heating which split the rad/hoses.
How long was it running with no water?

Tony

ChrisW.

6,210 posts

254 months

Friday 31st March 2006
quotequote all
And I see vitriol alley !

The customer may not always be right.

Sorry.

leesae

1 posts

212 months

Sunday 30th July 2006
quotequote all
Hi I am new to this forum.

I have owned two Porsches: A 1997 911 cabrolet and a 1999 911 cab. Both of these cars have or have needed new engines. I traded the 1997 for the 1999. The engine went out at 50,000 on the 1997 but was repaired under warranty. I now have a broke down 1999 with 110,000 miles. I have reported a check engine light on this car pretty much since the day I brought it home off of the showroom. They said it was probably the gas I was using and even went as far as to tell me I should not use 93 gas and try a lower grade.

I did not take their advice on that.

I was informed it was the rms when it was conveniently out of warranty. I was also told that it was not going to hurt anything to drive it but it was going to continue to leak oil until I fixed it. I was not in the mood to do without my car once again since it seems that the thing is constantly in the shop. I have replaced the following things on the car: clutch flywheel and pressure plate at 78,000 miles. I assume now that this was from the rms problem. That set me back $2,600. There was also an alternator replacement at 90,525 miles and a starter at 91,729 miles. I also replaced a fuel pump and had the engine, as they called it, "cleaned out". Apparently there was sludge in it from the fuel pump.

I love my car, and foolishly would probably buy another. I need to obtain a replacement engine for the 1999 911 996. They have quoted a replacement at $11,000. As you can tell I am not at all mechanically inclined.

I feel that I am being taken advantage of because I am a female. Does anyone have a connection to a porsche representative so I can complain about my constant problems? Any help regarding my delima would be appreciated. Thanks

Edited by leesae on Sunday 30th July 18:01


Edited by leesae on Sunday 30th July 18:04