Manual or Tiptronic 996 TT?
Discussion
Hurley Haywood from Christophorus magazine:
"...99.99 percent of the driving public is better served with an automatic transmission--it's just easier...as long, of course, as the automatic is up to the standard of the Porsche transmission....Porsche has developed the tiptronic over the years to become very smart....Anyone other than a professional race driver willl be able to get around the track faster with the automatic than with the manual shifter....Six speed gear shifting requires you to be very proficient.....and most people don't have a clue..."
It has always been my contention that people who have but don't like the tip do so because they just don't know how to drive it properly. It has to be driven agressively and it will reward you with outstanding performance. It makes lightening fast shifts. It is wonderfully adaptable when driven aggressively. You can downshift simply by feathering the throttle (prior to lane changes e.g).
If you're getting 20+ mpg with the tip then that is your problem. You're not driving aggressively enough. You're spending too much time in the higher gears.
"...99.99 percent of the driving public is better served with an automatic transmission--it's just easier...as long, of course, as the automatic is up to the standard of the Porsche transmission....Porsche has developed the tiptronic over the years to become very smart....Anyone other than a professional race driver willl be able to get around the track faster with the automatic than with the manual shifter....Six speed gear shifting requires you to be very proficient.....and most people don't have a clue..."
It has always been my contention that people who have but don't like the tip do so because they just don't know how to drive it properly. It has to be driven agressively and it will reward you with outstanding performance. It makes lightening fast shifts. It is wonderfully adaptable when driven aggressively. You can downshift simply by feathering the throttle (prior to lane changes e.g).
If you're getting 20+ mpg with the tip then that is your problem. You're not driving aggressively enough. You're spending too much time in the higher gears.
Callughan said:
Hurley Haywood from Christophorus magazine:
"...99.99 percent of the driving public is better served with an automatic transmission--it's just easier...as long, of course, as the automatic is up to the standard of the Porsche transmission....Porsche has developed the tiptronic over the years to become very smart....Anyone other than a professional race driver willl be able to get around the track faster with the automatic than with the manual shifter....Six speed gear shifting requires you to be very proficient.....and most people don't have a clue..."
It has always been my contention that people who have but don't like the tip do so because they just don't know how to drive it properly. It has to be driven agressively and it will reward you with outstanding performance. It makes lightening fast shifts. It is wonderfully adaptable when driven aggressively. You can downshift simply by feathering the throttle (prior to lane changes e.g).
If you're getting 20+ mpg with the tip then that is your problem. You're not driving aggressively enough. You're spending too much time in the higher gears.
That's all very well, but what would Hurley Haywood know, that the driving Gods on PH don't? At the end of the day, the only real differences between a Tiptronic and a manual is the number of gears in the box and the method of changing them: As I've said before, on a different thread about the same subject, if the internal combustion engine had been first invented in the last 20 years, the 'stick-shift' manual gearbox would never have existed! It is a ridiculously inefficient way of changing gear - ergonomically (especially in RHD cars, where both left limbs are required to be doing something other than actually controlling the car) and mechanically (a single friction based connection between engine and drivetrain) - especially since double and even triple-cone synchromesh is now required to allow numpties to change gear without destroying the cogs. Furthermore, anyone who has driven high powered responsive engines, will know the cost of a fluffed gear-change at a critical moment: Lost seconds and places, on the track, over-revs and mechanical damage anywhere - and maybe even a destroyed engine. Clutches can easily be burnt out in a few seconds of abuse (and that's over a grand down the pan on a 911) and a minor back problem can render the car undriveable: Rationally, it is very hard to justify choosing a manual Turbo..."...99.99 percent of the driving public is better served with an automatic transmission--it's just easier...as long, of course, as the automatic is up to the standard of the Porsche transmission....Porsche has developed the tiptronic over the years to become very smart....Anyone other than a professional race driver willl be able to get around the track faster with the automatic than with the manual shifter....Six speed gear shifting requires you to be very proficient.....and most people don't have a clue..."
It has always been my contention that people who have but don't like the tip do so because they just don't know how to drive it properly. It has to be driven agressively and it will reward you with outstanding performance. It makes lightening fast shifts. It is wonderfully adaptable when driven aggressively. You can downshift simply by feathering the throttle (prior to lane changes e.g).
If you're getting 20+ mpg with the tip then that is your problem. You're not driving aggressively enough. You're spending too much time in the higher gears.
Even the argument about enhanced resale value doesn't stack up on a rational basis (unless you are the first owner of course), as you will have paid more in the first instance and therefore will lose more actual money than retaining a lower percentage of a proportionately lower purchase price. (and, with a used Tiptronic, you know it won't have been over-revved and it will probably cost less to maintain in the long term).
So in real terms, the only reason for choosing a manual over a Tiptronic is pure personal preference and habit (or to go racing and be one of the 0.01%). In time (probably not very much time at all) you will not be able to buy 'stick shift' manual cars anymore: Apart from anything else, it is becoming harder and harder for manufacturers to comply with environmental legislation and marketing targets with manual gearboxes and most auto versions are more economical and have lower emissions than their manual counterparts now. The few traditionalists will hang onto their stick-shifts and lament the days when everything went computerised (bit ironic on an Internet forum I guess
) - a bit like the air-cooled brigade - but progress is progress and PDK and Tiptronic are just, well... better Having said all of that - for a track-day / race / rally / weekend fun car (or anything with less than 250 bhp/tonne) if I couldn't afford a PDK equivalent, I would probably still buy a manual myself
kVA said:
That's all very well, but what would Hurley Haywood know, that the driving Gods on PH don't? At the end of the day, the only real differences between a Tiptronic and a manual is the number of gears in the box and the method of changing them: As I've said before, on a different thread about the same subject, if the internal combustion engine had been first invented in the last 20 years, the 'stick-shift' manual gearbox would never have existed! It is a ridiculously inefficient way of changing gear - ergonomically (especially in RHD cars, where both left limbs are required to be doing something other than actually controlling the car) and mechanically (a single friction based connection between engine and drivetrain) - especially since double and even triple-cone synchromesh is now required to allow numpties to change gear without destroying the cogs. Furthermore, anyone who has driven high powered responsive engines, will know the cost of a fluffed gear-change at a critical moment: Lost seconds and places, on the track, over-revs and mechanical damage anywhere - and maybe even a destroyed engine. Clutches can easily be burnt out in a few seconds of abuse (and that's over a grand down the pan on a 911) and a minor back problem can render the car undriveable: Rationally, it is very hard to justify choosing a manual Turbo...
Even the argument about enhanced resale value doesn't stack up on a rational basis (unless you are the first owner of course), as you will have paid more in the first instance and therefore will lose more actual money than retaining a lower percentage of a proportionately lower purchase price. (and, with a used Tiptronic, you know it won't have been over-revved and it will probably cost less to maintain in the long term).
So in real terms, the only reason for choosing a manual over a Tiptronic is pure personal preference and habit (or to go racing and be one of the 0.01%). In time (probably not very much time at all) you will not be able to buy 'stick shift' manual cars anymore: Apart from anything else, it is becoming harder and harder for manufacturers to comply with environmental legislation and marketing targets with manual gearboxes and most auto versions are more economical and have lower emissions than their manual counterparts now. The few traditionalists will hang onto their stick-shifts and lament the days when everything went computerised (bit ironic on an Internet forum I guess ) - a bit like the air-cooled brigade - but progress is progress and PDK and Tiptronic are just, well... better
Having said all of that - for a track-day / race / rally / weekend fun car (or anything with less than 250 bhp/tonne) if I couldn't afford a PDK equivalent, I would probably still buy a manual myself
I have to say that this all makes for very interesting reading rather than people just saying tip is sEven the argument about enhanced resale value doesn't stack up on a rational basis (unless you are the first owner of course), as you will have paid more in the first instance and therefore will lose more actual money than retaining a lower percentage of a proportionately lower purchase price. (and, with a used Tiptronic, you know it won't have been over-revved and it will probably cost less to maintain in the long term).
So in real terms, the only reason for choosing a manual over a Tiptronic is pure personal preference and habit (or to go racing and be one of the 0.01%). In time (probably not very much time at all) you will not be able to buy 'stick shift' manual cars anymore: Apart from anything else, it is becoming harder and harder for manufacturers to comply with environmental legislation and marketing targets with manual gearboxes and most auto versions are more economical and have lower emissions than their manual counterparts now. The few traditionalists will hang onto their stick-shifts and lament the days when everything went computerised (bit ironic on an Internet forum I guess
) - a bit like the air-cooled brigade - but progress is progress and PDK and Tiptronic are just, well... better Having said all of that - for a track-day / race / rally / weekend fun car (or anything with less than 250 bhp/tonne) if I couldn't afford a PDK equivalent, I would probably still buy a manual myself
t etc etc, this would be a great time for Baz or others in the know to step in with there knowledge to give some examples on the amount of blown engines on tips compared to manuals if he knows the approx figures. Come on Baz where are you when we need you
doneitnow said:
I have to say that this all makes for very interesting reading rather than people just saying tip is st etc etc, this would be a great time for Baz or others in the know to step in with there knowledge to give some examples on the amount of blown engines on tips compared to manuals if he knows the approx figures. Come on Baz where are you when we need you
I think he has commented on this elsewhere, but there are different issues with the IMS / cylinder failures on N/A engines: IIRC the Tiptronics were actually worse because they tend to run lower engine revs when in auto mode and don't generate enough oil / coolant pressure? I may have got that all wrong, of course (can't be arsed to read all 100+ pages of the thread it was on), but, in any case, it doesn't apply to the Turbo anyway.t etc etc, this would be a great time for Baz or others in the know to step in with there knowledge to give some examples on the amount of blown engines on tips compared to manuals if he knows the approx figures. Come on Baz where are you when we need youThe key thing about Tiptronics is that it is impossible to get a serious over-rev (e.g. such as accidentally selecting 2nd instead of 4th at 120 mph!) that might cause permanent mechanical damage (stretched con-rods, over-heated bearings, valve damage, etc. - even catastrophic failure in extreme cases)
kVA said:
I think he has commented on this elsewhere, but there are different issues with the IMS / cylinder failures on N/A engines: IIRC the Tiptronics were actually worse because they tend to run lower engine revs when in auto mode and don't generate enough oil / coolant pressure? I may have got that all wrong, of course (can't be arsed to read all 100+ pages of the thread it was on), but, in any case, it doesn't apply to the Turbo anyway.
The key thing about Tiptronics is that it is impossible to get a serious over-rev (e.g. such as accidentally selecting 2nd instead of 4th at 120 mph!) that might cause permanent mechanical damage (stretched con-rods, over-heated bearings, valve damage, etc. - even catastrophic failure in extreme cases)
I know it does not apply to the turbos and not asking for a detailed answer just wondered what the figures are between tip and manual failures.The key thing about Tiptronics is that it is impossible to get a serious over-rev (e.g. such as accidentally selecting 2nd instead of 4th at 120 mph!) that might cause permanent mechanical damage (stretched con-rods, over-heated bearings, valve damage, etc. - even catastrophic failure in extreme cases)
monthefish said:
Callughan said:
Hurley Haywood from Christophorus magazine:
"...99.99 percent of the driving public is better served with an automatic transmission--
Thing is, the majority of PH will be the other 0.01%"...99.99 percent of the driving public is better served with an automatic transmission--
As the specific model ages, this number will decrease. For example, on a 964, I would bet that its more like 50%.
MTR
mollytherocker said:
kVA said:
Good post and as a Tiptronic Turbo driver by choice, I also agree totally with your last comment - As I said earlier, I wouldn't have a Tiptronic in anything with less torque than a Turbo: However, I feel I should correct you on the power losses bit, as the Tiptronic does not have any power loss when in gear, as each gear (except 1st) has a torque convertor lock up clutch. The only differences in 'in-gear' performance are due to gear ratios (5 instead of 6).
I think what he is alluding to is that the a tip has higher transmission losses than the manual. The bhp at the wheels is lower as a result (I dont know how much though).MTR
Sunnysidebb said:
Correct. The Tip box has its own oil pump and extra moving parts compared to a 6speed box. All of which sap some power to rotate. Its the reason they soak up some of the power even though the TC is locked. But once you put Big power through them the comparative losses between the two in reality is far less.
Ah, OK - I thought you were referring to driving through sludge in the torque convertor.However, The transmission losses you mean are more than offset by the ability to retain boost in a Turbo, as you change up through the gears. The only other effect of transmission losses would be a slightly lower top speed and worse fuel economy when driven at the same pace.
Actually, now I've just written that, I think I have revised my criteria of choice between Tiptronic and manual - I think it is ONLY turbocharged engines that work well with Tiptronic and it is nothing to do with the actual power output - and probably explains why I thought the Tip box felt really dull and flat in a C4.
Agree that the tip was better in a TT than the n/a cars I have driven, the torque on the TT hid most of the lazy feel (to me) and power reduction, power reduction was noticeable when switching from my boxster s to a tip equivalent.
If I was buying a newer 911 I would probably opt for a PDK as it makes a lot more sense for my driving habits.
If I was buying a newer 911 I would probably opt for a PDK as it makes a lot more sense for my driving habits.
Thanks to all for what was for me an extremely helpful discussion.
I have been "shopping" for a 911 after driving a loaner Boxster for 4 months.
Initially i was drawn to the manual conv. 997's due to price and similarity to the Boxster feel.
Then the air cooled 95-98 due to bottom of price curve.
Then a Porsche mechanic recommended the 996 turbo. That feels good right now.
Wasn't sure if I wanted the manual or tip - which brought me to this thread. My 31 year old son says I'm a sissy lol unless I get the stick. But as a DD I was getting a little tired of of the Boxster stick.
. I drove a 2004 turbo conv and the stick was difficult for me. The 2006 Boxster was easy by comparison.
After reading this thread I realize that real men can own a Tip. So here I go.....
I have been "shopping" for a 911 after driving a loaner Boxster for 4 months.
Initially i was drawn to the manual conv. 997's due to price and similarity to the Boxster feel.
Then the air cooled 95-98 due to bottom of price curve.
Then a Porsche mechanic recommended the 996 turbo. That feels good right now.
Wasn't sure if I wanted the manual or tip - which brought me to this thread. My 31 year old son says I'm a sissy lol unless I get the stick. But as a DD I was getting a little tired of of the Boxster stick.
. I drove a 2004 turbo conv and the stick was difficult for me. The 2006 Boxster was easy by comparison. After reading this thread I realize that real men can own a Tip. So here I go.....
Well, nice to see that some years after the original post, the debate is still raging. I have a 996tt manual and, after reading the posts, I think KVA has convinced me that I should have bought a tip.
Mine is running around 500bhp and, I confess, I'm no hero driver and recognise that the tip would probably be quicker than yours truly in most situations. In two everyday situations, upon reflection, it's absolutely clear the tip would be faster. The first is the quick decision overtake of cars on a single carriageway (i.e. the ability of the tip to achieve near instant changes to the ideal gear). The second is driving a tight, twisty route with some straights, where the ability to steer rapidly hinders the ability to change gears optimally.
Well, tips seem to be going for less than manuals at the moment and I guess I might swap if the right offer came along...
Mine is running around 500bhp and, I confess, I'm no hero driver and recognise that the tip would probably be quicker than yours truly in most situations. In two everyday situations, upon reflection, it's absolutely clear the tip would be faster. The first is the quick decision overtake of cars on a single carriageway (i.e. the ability of the tip to achieve near instant changes to the ideal gear). The second is driving a tight, twisty route with some straights, where the ability to steer rapidly hinders the ability to change gears optimally.
Well, tips seem to be going for less than manuals at the moment and I guess I might swap if the right offer came along...
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