Manual or Tiptronic 996 TT?

[996ttalot]

Miras, look at this chart - one manual, one tip, same build, same boost, rolling from 40 mph, same venue.

In high hp cars the difference between tip and manual becomes even more of a factor. No boost losses unlike the huge on/off losses on the manual, tip absolutely kills the manual car.

Forget the published figures - it is real world stuff that counts.

[blackburn]

iguana said:

I personally can't see the appeal of auto sports cars unless you've lost a limb or two, but thats just me.

Yep, that's me.

[ZeroH]

996ttalot said:

Miras, look at this chart - one manual, one tip, same build, same boost, rolling from 40 mph, same venue.

In high hp cars the difference between tip and manual becomes even more of a factor. No boost losses unlike the huge on/off losses on the manual, tip absolutely kills the manual car.

Forget the published figures - it is real world stuff that counts.

Agree with bigger hp the tip becomes an advantage & I don't dispute the faster boost build.

neverthless I've been party to enough roll ons to know that stock the 996 turbo tip isn't that fast & 100% not as fast as an equivalent manual, plus porsches own figures highlight as much !

[kVA]

rallycross said:

Do you really think that?
I suggest you invest in some driving lessons if you think you got home 3 minutes earlier due to driving an auto.

How very clever of you to deliberately quote one line of my post out of context....

So, let me get this right... YOU start a thread asking for people's opinions, then take the piss out of the people, who give up a few moments of their time and the benefit of their directly relevant experience, trying to help you - smart move mate...

[eagle1]

kVA said:

How very clever of you to deliberately quote one line of my post out of context....

So, let me get this right... YOU start a thread asking for people's opinions, then take the piss out of the people, who give up a few moments of their time and the benefit of their directly relevant experience, trying to help you - smart move mate...

Yes - I thought that was a rather unnecessary comment. Up until then I was finding it a really interesting thread with some technical info from Ken that I did not know.

[rallycross]

kVA said:

How very clever of you to deliberately quote one line of my post out of context....

So, let me get this right... YOU start a thread asking for people's opinions, then take the piss out of the people, who give up a few moments of their time and the benefit of their directly relevant experience, trying to help you - smart move mate...

Sorry KVA was only poking fun at you, thanks for your and all the comments so far its has been really interesting hearing from people who have experience of driving them both.

So far have only driven a 'tip but that along with the comments so far has helped confirm what we had already half decided - ie to go for a manual got a couple to view this week.

[anonymous-user]

I feel a bit better now the cavalry has arrived

996ttalot said:

Miras, look at this chart

That is a pretty revealing graph. The maintenance of boost at the shift points makes perfect sense, now it's pointed out to me, but it is not something I had thought about at all previously. The effect on performance is pretty stark.

[kVA]

Greg66 said:

That is a pretty revealing graph. The maintenance of boost at the shift points makes perfect sense, now it's pointed out to me, but it is not something I had thought about at all previously. The effect on performance is pretty stark.

Wow - when I did my 191 mph vmax on the autobahn last year, I commented in my article in Total 911, that the acceleration appeared seamless and constant right up past 160 mph - I see why now: with a Tiptronic, 60-160 is 4 seconds faster according to that chart,!!!!

Still feel the same way about your manual Turbos, now guys?

[ZeroH]

kVA said:

Wow - when I did my 191 mph vmax on the autobahn last year, I commented in my article in Total 911, that the acceleration appeared seamless and constant right up past 160 mph - I see why now: with a Tiptronic, 60-160 is 4 seconds faster according to that chart,!!!!

Still feel the same way about your manual Turbos, now guys?

Those graphs are not comparing apples to appkes but different cars with different states if tune.

Stock tip v stock manual the tip gets mullered ! Sorry if that disappoints!!

[anonymous-user]

ZeroH said:

Those graphs are not comparing apples to appkes but different cars with different states if tune.

What makes you say that (on iPhone ATM so can't see much detail on the graph - not sure if it says that).

[ZeroH]

Greg66 said:

What makes you say that (on iPhone ATM so can't see much detail on the graph - not sure if it says that).

Look at the acceleration of the two lines when you get on your computer and it will become v clear !

Edited to say the tip will be upgraded also (not cheap $$), so again not comparable to stock tip in terms of its shifting speed and boost maintenance !!

Trust me, stock for stock, 996tt manual blows tip away... at higher outputs AND with upgraded tip box then for sure advantage tip !

Edited by ZeroH on Sunday 29th January 15:12

[996ttalot]

ZeroH said:

Greg66 said:

What makes you say that (on iPhone ATM so can't see much detail on the graph - not sure if it says that).

Look at the acceleration of the two lines when you get on your computer and it will become v clear !

Edited to say the tip will be upgraded also (not cheap $$), so again not comparable to stock tip in terms of its shifting speed and boost maintenance !!

Trust me, stock for stock, 996tt manual blows tip away... at higher outputs AND with upgraded tip box then for sure advantage tip !

Edited by ZeroH on Sunday 29th January 15:12

Miras, sorry but they were identical builds. Running same settings. Maybe the gap would not be so big on another day and roll on races are always not exact, but it has a lot to do with gearing the more hp you have.

The tip shifts into 3rd at 73mph and then at 120mph. So the tip is right in it's power band when the manual has to shift. At high hp that pulls out lots of lengths, and this can be seen in the shift into 4, 5th and 6th gear of the manual, each time it the tip pulls lengths.

Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).

See - almost identical performance. And yes, this was with the MKB box in the example.



And yes, the tip long g line is just slightly higher - because it retains boost as mentioned, and therefore can hold it for longer.

Edited by 996ttalot on Sunday 29th January 15:51

[crisisjez]

For me it would be Tip.
The Turbos not really a sports car anymore, which is why the GT3's so popular.
As a GT its sublime though.

[911p]

996ttalot said:

Miras, sorry but they were identical builds. Running same settings. Maybe the gap would not be so big on another day and roll on races are always not exact, but it has a lot to do with gearing the more hp you have.

Ken, I think he meant the advantage of a tiptronic is only there over a manual with very highly tuned cars (like the ones on the chart).

[kVA]

ZeroH said:

Those graphs are not comparing apples to appkes but different cars with different states if tune.

Stock tip v stock manual the tip gets mullered ! Sorry if that disappoints!!

Keep justifying your manual, mate - My Tip is stock (as far as I know, and someone with a fairly heavily mapped manual was shocked that I could stay with him on the long straight at Bedford: In fact, so much so, he is convinced mine is mapped (but I have never seen more than 0.8 bar of boost and it has stock pipework, turbos, exhausts and everything.

Anyway, it is obvious that you prefer a manual, which is great - if we all liked the same things this world would be very boring, wouldn't it?

As for me, it's manual (or preferably PDK) on a naturally aspirated car, but Tip with a Turbo - every time: I said I would never buy a manual sports car and I still stick with that - the Turbo is a GT - not really a 'sports car' to me and the best daily driver I can imagine for it...

[Callughan]

If weekend drive get manual otherwise tip all the way, once learnt and mastered it's very effective. I once posted one of Porsche's USA test drivers articles on the benefits of tip. Saying that the official times for the 996 turbo tip are much slower and at the meets I could hang on to the tip's where as the manual would fly off.

[996ttalot]

911p said:

996ttalot said:

Miras, sorry but they were identical builds. Running same settings. Maybe the gap would not be so big on another day and roll on races are always not exact, but it has a lot to do with gearing the more hp you have.

Ken, I think he meant the advantage of a tiptronic is only there over a manual with very highly tuned cars (like the ones on the chart).

Yes the high hp does lend itself, no doubts about that. 997 tip Porsche figures are quicker. 996 tip Porsche figures are slower. However, as I mentioned, if you brake boost, the difference goes. I am also excluding the fact that in a manual, you have to hook up the start, and every gear shift - in a tip unless you are an idiot it is pretty hard to screw up provided you know how to put it into fast shift pattern.

If I went along on a test drive, I would probably come away with the same impression, even the Porsche manual tells you nothing on how to get the best out of it.

Anyway, to me it doesn't matter which is preferred - that is an individual choice. My point was that to say it is a "slush" box is simply wrong, if anything it is the other way around

The OP I think has already made his choice.

[kVA]

Callughan said:

If weekend drive get manual otherwise tip all the way, once learnt and mastered it's very effective. I once posted one of Porsche's USA test drivers articles on the benefits of tip. Saying that the official times for the 996 turbo tip are much slower and at the meets I could hang on to the tip's where as the manual would fly off.

Bit confused by that post, but comparing circuit lap-times for a Turbo (as opposed to GT2 / GT3) is a bit like comparing the luggage capacity of a 911 with a Cayenne (IMO) - one is designed for what you are testing, the other isn't! OK, so there isn't really an objective test for comparing any two cars driving in real-world, real traffic conditions, but, if there was, I would put my money on the Turbo Tip, rather than the Manual. Just buy whichever one you really honestly prefer and think you will enjoy most, for most of the time - and make that decision with an open mind, rather than which is the most 'macho' or which will be easiest to sell on again (I REALLY hate that, when people buy something that is not their first choice - just for the next owner... grrrr...)

As I have said above, both my 911 Carerra 4's were manual (I test drove a couple of Tiptronics and thought they were gutless) and I wouldn't have it any other way.... BUT, a Turbo is a different kettle of fish - you have to really work at it to get the best out of a non-linear torque curve, with a conventional manual gearbox. This can be fun, if you are deliberately having a hustle through the lanes, or on a race-track, but it's not so much fun on a 1,000 mile cross-Europe cruise (again, IMO). I love my Turbo Tip and I wouldn't now even consider a manual Turbo - I love changing gear on full throttle, just flicking my thumbs to do it (and, since Richard H told me how to heel and toe in a Tip, I can even do the throttle blip on downchanges) when I'm having a bit of a hoon! But what's best for me, is being able to stick it in D and chill on a long distance cruise (all the while knowing I only need to punch the throttle hard to drop into the lowest gear available (with no fear of a type 2 over-rev) and out-accelerate all but the most extreme supercars.

[Callughan]

kVA said:

Callughan said:

If weekend drive get manual otherwise tip all the way, once learnt and mastered it's very effective. I once posted one of Porsche's USA test drivers articles on the benefits of tip. Saying that the official times for the 996 turbo tip are much slower and at the meets I could hang on to the tip's where as the manual would fly off.

Bit confused by that post, but comparing circuit lap-times for a Turbo (as opposed to GT2 / GT3) is a bit like comparing the luggage capacity of a 911 with a Cayenne (IMO) - one is designed for what you are testing, the other isn't! OK, so there isn't really an objective test for comparing any two cars driving in real-world, real traffic conditions, but, if there was, I would put my money on the Turbo Tip, rather than the Manual. Just buy whichever one you really honestly prefer and think you will enjoy most, for most of the time - and make that decision with an open mind, rather than which is the most 'macho' or which will be easiest to sell on again (I REALLY hate that, when people buy something that is not their first choice - just for the next owner... grrrr...)

As I have said above, both my 911 Carerra 4's were manual (I test drove a couple of Tiptronics and thought they were gutless) and I wouldn't have it any other way.... BUT, a Turbo is a different kettle of fish - you have to really work at it to get the best out of a non-linear torque curve, with a conventional manual gearbox. This can be fun, if you are deliberately having a hustle through the lanes, or on a race-track, but it's not so much fun on a 1,000 mile cross-Europe cruise (again, IMO). I love my Turbo Tip and I wouldn't now even consider a manual Turbo - I love changing gear on full throttle, just flicking my thumbs to do it (and, since Richard H told me how to heel and toe in a Tip, I can even do the throttle blip on downchanges) when I'm having a bit of a hoon! But what's best for me, is being able to stick it in D and chill on a long distance cruise (all the while knowing I only need to punch the throttle hard to drop into the lowest gear available (with no fear of a type 2 over-rev) and out-accelerate all but the most extreme supercars.

Hi, which bit are you confused about?

[kVA]

Callughan said:

Hi, which bit are you confused about?

The benefits of a Tip vs a manual - do you mean 'fly off' as in crash, or as in disappear into the distance?