Manual or Tiptronic 996 TT?
Discussion
kVA said:
Callughan said:
Hi, which bit are you confused about?
The benefits of a Tip vs a manual - do you mean 'fly off' as in crash, or as in disappear into the distance?For the record I love tiptronics
996ttalot said:
Miras, sorry but they were identical builds. Running same settings. Maybe the gap would not be so big on another day and roll on races are always not exact, but it has a lot to do with gearing the more hp you have.
The tip shifts into 3rd at 73mph and then at 120mph. So the tip is right in it's power band when the manual has to shift. At high hp that pulls out lots of lengths, and this can be seen in the shift into 4, 5th and 6th gear of the manual, each time it the tip pulls lengths.
Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
See - almost identical performance. And yes, this was with the MKB box in the example.
And yes, the tip long g line is just slightly higher - because it retains boost as mentioned, and therefore can hold it for longer.
Ken, I've just reread your post and am confused... the first chart you posted showed one line of 60-130 in around 6.5s and the other line in around 9s.... hence my comment they are clearly not comparable states of tune !!The tip shifts into 3rd at 73mph and then at 120mph. So the tip is right in it's power band when the manual has to shift. At high hp that pulls out lots of lengths, and this can be seen in the shift into 4, 5th and 6th gear of the manual, each time it the tip pulls lengths.
Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
See - almost identical performance. And yes, this was with the MKB box in the example.
And yes, the tip long g line is just slightly higher - because it retains boost as mentioned, and therefore can hold it for longer.
Edited by 996ttalot on Sunday 29th January 15:51
How were these cars the same build with such a performance discrepency ?
Edited by ZeroH on Sunday 29th January 18:36
Edited by ZeroH on Sunday 29th January 18:44
kVA said:
Keep justifying your manual, mate - My Tip is stock (as far as I know, and someone with a fairly heavily mapped manual was shocked that I could stay with him on the long straight at Bedford: In fact, so much so, he is convinced mine is mapped (but I have never seen more than 0.8 bar of boost and it has stock pipework, turbos, exhausts and everything.
Anyway, it is obvious that you prefer a manual, which is great - if we all liked the same things this world would be very boring, wouldn't it?
As for me, it's manual (or preferably PDK) on a naturally aspirated car, but Tip with a Turbo - every time: I said I would never buy a manual sports car and I still stick with that - the Turbo is a GT - not really a 'sports car' to me and the best daily driver I can imagine for it...
I'm not trying to justify anything thanks - I make no other point than stock for stock tip is much slower that 6sp in the 996. Anyway, it is obvious that you prefer a manual, which is great - if we all liked the same things this world would be very boring, wouldn't it?
As for me, it's manual (or preferably PDK) on a naturally aspirated car, but Tip with a Turbo - every time: I said I would never buy a manual sports car and I still stick with that - the Turbo is a GT - not really a 'sports car' to me and the best daily driver I can imagine for it...
At higher hp, tip has advantage as I've happily stated, but Ken's runs are showing upgraded tip boxes, so again, hardly a counter-point to my posts on this matter !
Both tranny's have a place in a turbo and are both well suited - no one can make an argument of one being "better" than the other, because "better" is subjective based on ones uses - but you can make the objective argument that in their stock form, manual is quicker that tip.
ZeroH said:
996ttalot said:
Miras, sorry but they were identical builds. Running same settings. Maybe the gap would not be so big on another day and roll on races are always not exact, but it has a lot to do with gearing the more hp you have.
The tip shifts into 3rd at 73mph and then at 120mph. So the tip is right in it's power band when the manual has to shift. At high hp that pulls out lots of lengths, and this can be seen in the shift into 4, 5th and 6th gear of the manual, each time it the tip pulls lengths.
Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
See - almost identical performance. And yes, this was with the MKB box in the example.
And yes, the tip long g line is just slightly higher - because it retains boost as mentioned, and therefore can hold it for longer.
Ken, you've just put up a different chart !!! The tip shifts into 3rd at 73mph and then at 120mph. So the tip is right in it's power band when the manual has to shift. At high hp that pulls out lots of lengths, and this can be seen in the shift into 4, 5th and 6th gear of the manual, each time it the tip pulls lengths.
Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
See - almost identical performance. And yes, this was with the MKB box in the example.
And yes, the tip long g line is just slightly higher - because it retains boost as mentioned, and therefore can hold it for longer.
Edited by 996ttalot on Sunday 29th January 15:51
The first chart you posted showed one line of 60-130 in around 6.5s and the other line in around 9s.... hence my comment they are clearly not the comparable !!
"Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
"
I accept that you can shift faster in a manual than the example given, but in the real world with Mr/Mrs Average driver, the tip is quicker. The reason why the tip gets the nod in that particular line up is simply down to shifting/gearing.
You get one shift wrong and you can say good bye.
996ttalot said:
Miras, no it is the same chart, but as stated
"Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
"
I accept that you can shift faster in a manual than the example given, but in the real world with Mr/Mrs Average driver, the tip is quicker. The reason why the tip gets the nod in that particular line up is simply down to shifting/gearing.
You get one shift wrong and you can say good bye.
AH yes, i just edited my post as I re-read your comment and missed this point !"Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
"
I accept that you can shift faster in a manual than the example given, but in the real world with Mr/Mrs Average driver, the tip is quicker. The reason why the tip gets the nod in that particular line up is simply down to shifting/gearing.
You get one shift wrong and you can say good bye.
However, as I said, without editing, one car was much quicker than the other, hence my question how were they comparable states of tune ?
ZeroH said:
996ttalot said:
Miras, no it is the same chart, but as stated
"Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
"
I accept that you can shift faster in a manual than the example given, but in the real world with Mr/Mrs Average driver, the tip is quicker. The reason why the tip gets the nod in that particular line up is simply down to shifting/gearing.
You get one shift wrong and you can say good bye.
AH yes, i just edited my post as I re-read your comment and missed this point !"Here is the same graph, but I removed the shifts for both tip and the manual car (ignore the spike lines because that is drop outs created as a result of removing the shifts).
"
I accept that you can shift faster in a manual than the example given, but in the real world with Mr/Mrs Average driver, the tip is quicker. The reason why the tip gets the nod in that particular line up is simply down to shifting/gearing.
You get one shift wrong and you can say good bye.
However, as I said, without editing, one car was much quicker than the other, hence my question how were they comparable states of tune ?
Saying that I would just like a friggen car to drive at the moment - one day!
Blah, blah, blah, all this manual is better than Tip or vice versa is totally irrelevant.
What matters is what best suits your driving style, particularly in the sort of mileage you are likely to do, and in what circumstances (Town, motorway, etc etc).
The only way to find out is get as many miles in each situation and you’ll soon figure it out.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholders, likewise which best suits is down to the seat of your pants, finger tips feel
Have fun
What matters is what best suits your driving style, particularly in the sort of mileage you are likely to do, and in what circumstances (Town, motorway, etc etc).
The only way to find out is get as many miles in each situation and you’ll soon figure it out.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholders, likewise which best suits is down to the seat of your pants, finger tips feel
Have fun
Beaky59 said:
Blah, blah, blah, all this manual is better than Tip or vice versa is totally irrelevant.
What matters is what best suits your driving style, particularly in the sort of mileage you are likely to do, and in what circumstances (Town, motorway, etc etc).
The only way to find out is get as many miles in each situation and you’ll soon figure it out.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholders, likewise which best suits is down to the seat of your pants, finger tips feel
Have fun
Absolutely...What matters is what best suits your driving style, particularly in the sort of mileage you are likely to do, and in what circumstances (Town, motorway, etc etc).
The only way to find out is get as many miles in each situation and you’ll soon figure it out.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholders, likewise which best suits is down to the seat of your pants, finger tips feel
Have fun
But do have an open mind when you do it and use the manual mode on the Tip for at least part of the test-drive.
It'll be fun finding out
monthefish said:
VonSenger said:
For the love of god, dont do it to your self! Buying this car in tip form is pointless. Sorry, just my opinion. Ive driven both extensively and owned a manual for a number of years. The tip is clumsy, slow (changes) and devoids this car of the contact and involvment you get with a manual 911.
Just my 2 peneth.
Just my 2 peneth.
Adam B said:
monthefish said:
VonSenger said:
For the love of god, dont do it to your self! Buying this car in tip form is pointless. Sorry, just my opinion. Ive driven both extensively and owned a manual for a number of years. The tip is clumsy, slow (changes) and devoids this car of the contact and involvment you get with a manual 911.
Just my 2 peneth.
Just my 2 peneth.
"So why did you choose the manual in the end, OP?"...
"Because some of the people on PH said the Tiptronic was ghastly, so I didn't bother to try one and make my own judgement, in case I get bullied at Sunday Service for going against their advice!" :boxedin"
kVA said:
Adam B said:
monthefish said:
VonSenger said:
For the love of god, dont do it to your self! Buying this car in tip form is pointless. Sorry, just my opinion. Ive driven both extensively and owned a manual for a number of years. The tip is clumsy, slow (changes) and devoids this car of the contact and involvment you get with a manual 911.
Just my 2 peneth.
Just my 2 peneth.
"So why did you choose the manual in the end, OP?"...
"Because some of the people on PH said the Tiptronic was ghastly, so I didn't bother to try one and make my own judgement, in case I get bullied at Sunday Service for going against their advice!" :boxedin"
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