964 C4 on track?

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Discussion

marky911

Original Poster:

4,417 posts

218 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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I'll try and keep this brief guys, my search for a 964 C2 that doesn't require loads of work is falling flat on it's face, due to budget mainly and the fact that I can't get my head around paying £20k for one.

I've found a gem of a C4. Starship miles but has had engine rebuild at opc (albeit 40k+ ago), suspension, discs, pads, replacement gearbox, clutch and most of all it's rust free.

So I'm about to buy it subject to ppi inc. compression/leakdown test. It will be a daily car (spring until autumn) but I will be "RS"-ing it over time, to add to the feel, etc. It will also do 1 or 2 trackdays a month.

Having never driven a C4 though, I'm obviously reading a lot about the understeer. Can this be dialled out with a more aggressive geo.
I know it's never going to be a C2 but that doesn't bother me. I'm buying on condition and previous pampering and am actually looking forward to sampling the handling of a C4 on a daily basis, in all weathers. Shaving tenths off a lap doesn't bother me but I also don't want a boring drive on track.
So anyone with any experience of a 964 C4, preferably a modded one, I'd love to hear your views.
I would test drive the car, but I basically want to fly down for it then drive it home, hence not trail down to view and test drive, then have to go back.
Plus driving it on the road isn't the same as the track although, yes I'll at least know if I hate it.

Thanks, Mark. smile


MarkKo

168 posts

196 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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Sorry 964 C4 is not a track toy,heavy AWD and tiny brakes not a good formula for a track car,great on the road and very capable in the snow,but a track car it will never be.

marky911

Original Poster:

4,417 posts

218 months

Friday 27th January 2012
quotequote all
Really?
They are THAT bad then?
Weight is 100kgs more. I'll be losing a lot from seats, etc.

I thought the brakes were same as C2 on front but 4pots on rear instead of 2pots? Obviously they'll feel different due to the higher pressure system.

So it's a dud even for occasional track use? Still a sportscar though surely?

Not arguing mind. I appreciate the input. Keep it coming gents.

h_____

684 posts

223 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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you could do it......but hang in there a nice C2 will come along. Be patient, you'll end up with a better track orientated car in the long run.

GT Two

3,070 posts

191 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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Mark please wait.

marky911

Original Poster:

4,417 posts

218 months

Friday 27th January 2012
quotequote all
Hi h___ and Lee,
Yeah lads, I sort of know the answer really. It's just that every C2 I've seen has needed work. They have been tidy but needed a rebuild, or have had a rebuild but are rough cosmetically.

This C4 is very good and is £13k. The money left over would buy seats, cage, etc.

I'm not impatient but have known from the start my budget is low and given the relative rarity of C2s, and also the old "buy on condition" rule, I figured this C4 may fit the bill.

I'll weigh it up a bit more then.




Pesty

42,655 posts

255 months

Friday 27th January 2012
quotequote all
MarkKo said:
Sorry 964 C4 is not a track toy,heavy AWD and tiny brakes not a good formula for a track car,great on the road and very capable in the snow,but a track car it will never be.
really?

Its a bit heavier and steering not as sharp. does not mean it can't be a track day toy.

Seen plenty of well set up C4s' perform very well on track.

Edited by Pesty on Friday 27th January 20:25

marky911

Original Poster:

4,417 posts

218 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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Those were my thoughts pesty but, having not driven one, who am I to argue.

Pesty

42,655 posts

255 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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I wouldn't argue against a c2 making a better track day car

All Im saying is I don't see a C4 as an improbable track day car smile

sombody on here bought a C4 with the idea of C2ifying it. they reconed it was an easy job and said they would start a thread on the project.

didn;t hear any more about it.

I'll be hopefully doing a track day this year. Has certainly been fun on the airfield days granted not that many corners but still.

james S

1,615 posts

244 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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I tracked mine a couple of times and found it fine. Sorting out the front geo would have helped the understeer which wasn't fun.

I guess a C2 is better start point but if you like the car and its in at the right money you probably can't go so far wrokng.

Others might know if you can disconnect the front diff successfully and whether this would turn it into a C2 or a disaster

How big is 'big miles' by the way. Mine had about 140 on it when it had a rebuild. The last time I saw it was at 160 in about 2005. Apparently still going very well indeed. It was an 89 car in gunmetal grey

h_____

684 posts

223 months

Friday 27th January 2012
quotequote all
Pesty said:
really?

Its a bit heavier and steering not as sharp. does not mean it can't be a track day toy.

Seen plenty of well set up C4s' perform very well on track.

Edited by Pesty on Friday 27th January 20:25
You are right of course, you can track a C4, you can make it lighter and you can adjust Geo so that it will handle better. And you may well be happy with that. However, if you really like track days, or you get the bug, then I guess that ultimately you will be better off with a C2. Also you are right you can turn a C4 into a C2, and there are some advantages....the braking system for example....but that's got to be more hassle overal.

boxsey

3,574 posts

209 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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marky911 said:
I thought the brakes were same as C2 on front but 4pots on rear instead of 2pots? Obviously they'll feel different due to the higher pressure system.
I think Mark (the other one) meant the brakes are small for a full fat C4 used on track. The brakes are exactly the same as late C2s and work extremely well on track when some weight is shed. I'm sure Mark (the other one) already knows this quite well as he races against 964C2s that have standard brakes in the Porsche club championship. wink

marky911

Original Poster:

4,417 posts

218 months

Friday 27th January 2012
quotequote all
Evening boxsey,
Ok. I see what he means. My old C2 is in that championship too. Wish I could've kept it with my turbo.

My old trackcar is in my profile. Sold last year due to lack of use, as it was track only. No 964 will compare to that hence my comments about times etc.

I don't want something that feels like a 7 series though. wink

marky911

Original Poster:

4,417 posts

218 months

Friday 27th January 2012
quotequote all
james S said:
I tracked mine a couple of times and found it fine. Sorting out the front geo would have helped the understeer which wasn't fun.

I guess a C2 is better start point but if you like the car and its in at the right money you probably can't go so far wrokng.

Others might know if you can disconnect the front diff successfully and whether this would turn it into a C2 or a disaster

How big is 'big miles' by the way. Mine had about 140 on it when it had a rebuild. The last time I saw it was at 160 in about 2005. Apparently still going very well indeed. It was an 89 car in gunmetal grey
Hi James, a lot more too it than that unfortunately. 2wd box required obviously but brakes are tied in to 4wd system I think, so loads of wiring, brains, etc to sort. Not worth it for me.
My main worry is the understeer you mention.

Simple answer is "Drive one!" but that's not really an option without wasting peoples time.

Mileage by the way is 150k. Massive history file plus all handbooks, fully stamped service book. Someone has loved it. Last owner had a genuine 73RS too. Lots of little bits that cost, such as cup mirrors, etc. Added bonus of a Becker cd player too, that I can put in my Turbo.

I'm still 50/50. My mind changes daily. smile

Wozy68

5,387 posts

169 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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Ah Mark, dilemma dilemma, You my man I think are in a simliar position to me. 2wd v 4wd?????

911 993, not such a problem me thinks and that is what I'm looking at at the moment. 964 C2 or C4 well, which one? hmmmmmmm C4 100 kg heavier, C2 still using the old 911 swap ends rear suspension but without the extra grip of a C4 to help it out.

Though I'm looking at a C2 993, secretly I still love the classic shape of the 964.
Easy for me to answer, the C4 might well be slower, but I have found out what a C2 does when it loses traction on a 50MPH bend in the wet ......... on a corner I go around almost as quick in my awd LR Defender. ............. this is the truth.

Sod the understeer, the answer to your question is simple. Go for a 91 onwards model C4, check the VIN not the reg. By then they had sorted most of the understeer problems anyway at the factory. Go for a 93 model and that has the later lightweight flywheel, even quicker pickup.

Leave the C2 to the track day Gods and the fair weather users if your unsure ........ oh and the 'you don't get the pure feel of a 911 with fwd' rubbish.

After all, why did Porsche really bring out an awd 911?.......... Simples



Edited by Wozy68 on Friday 27th January 22:35

MarkKo

168 posts

196 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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Don't get me Wrong,the 964 C4 is a great car and I actually prefer the feel of the 964 awd to the 993 awd it feels more constant and judge able if you know what I mean,awd makes great sense for the road in the wet you can peddle at a rate of knots with confidence and high speed stability is good,in the heavy snow last year people were abandoning cars all around and we just drove on,pulling away and parking speeds in a 964 C4 you can manually lock the diffs which helps in snow aswell.
I dare say you can punt it around a track and a Gentle lap on the Nordshleife in wet weather might be fun as its a bit like a country lane in alot of places,but as a basis for stripping out and caging etc for a fast direction changing track car I just think its not ideal.Porsche gave it a go with a lightweight awd 964 car I forget what they called it ..anyone? And it was rare because it wasn't popular so they didn't make any.maybe because the idea just didn't work.
More people will be along in a minute saying this aswell ,for what you want wait for a C2 one will turn up.

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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1 to 2 track days a month?

I say C2. I dont believe that you cant find one. They are out there. Keep looking.

MTR

james S

1,615 posts

244 months

Friday 27th January 2012
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If it genuinly is going to be 1-2 track days a month, I'd go Caterham or 968 / sorted 944 turbo unless it absolutely has to be a 911

Pesty

42,655 posts

255 months

Saturday 28th January 2012
quotequote all
MarkKo said:
Don't get me Wrong,the 964 C4 is a great car and I actually prefer the feel of the 964 awd to the 993 awd it feels more constant and judge able if you know what I mean,awd makes great sense for the road in the wet you can peddle at a rate of knots with confidence and high speed stability is good,in the heavy snow last year people were abandoning cars all around and we just drove on,pulling away and parking speeds in a 964 C4 you can manually lock the diffs which helps in snow aswell.
I dare say you can punt it around a track and a Gentle lap on the Nordshleife in wet weather might be fun as its a bit like a country lane in alot of places,but as a basis for stripping out and caging etc for a fast direction changing track car I just think its not ideal.Porsche gave it a go with a lightweight awd 964 car I forget what they called it ..anyone? And it was rare because it wasn't popular so they didn't make any.maybe because the idea just didn't work.
More people will be along in a minute saying this aswell ,for what you want wait for a C2 one will turn up.
I think they just called it the C4 RS.

I do actually agree a c2 is definitely a better track car especialy with an LSD and suspention sorted.

I went to a very small tight track curborough years ago?( boxey may remember) and my car was fine but i had a passenger lap in sombody elses c2 with LSD and it was definitely better. Turn in was sharper and the car did feel more nimble.

On a wider track track the difference would be less noticable but yes still there.

When people talk about the understeer with the C4 set up correctly can almost eliminate it. The only time I notice it is on very tight mini roundabouts when the PDAS system kicks in.

This bit bellow may not make a lot of sence and may be complete bks

The understeer when the PDAS kicks in isnt like normal understeer its a very strange feeling which can then lead to snap oversteer(ask me how I know smile) but ironically I know when that is going to happen and now do the opposite with the steering wheel if it was understeer i.e treat it like oversteer and you catch the overtseer beofre it happens which makes me feel like a driving god. ( ok that makes sence in my head I know you are all laughing now thinking what bks I am spouting)

I seem to recal that removeing the lateral gravity sensor thingy disables the Pdas system. Note the Pdas system hardly ever kicks in and i cant see it kicking in during a track day.

When this car was my only car and I had to drive through winter I did apreciate the c4 if i wanted a track only car my preference would be a c2 however nothing is ever that simple is it. These cars are getting on and a Good C4 may be a better buy than a more expensive c2.

difficult decision good luck smile 1 or 2 a month? yeah i'd probably say wait for a C2 as well. 1 or 2 a year? maybe different.




Edited by Pesty on Saturday 28th January 00:10

boxsey

3,574 posts

209 months

Saturday 28th January 2012
quotequote all
MarkKo said:
Porsche gave it a go with a lightweight awd 964 car I forget what they called it ..anyone? And it was rare because it wasn't popular so they didn't make any.maybe because the idea just didn't work.
From what I know of it, it was simply called the 911 carrera 4 lightweight. As you say, extremely rare, only 20 built, and not an official model!