964 C4 on track?
Discussion
Hi Wozy - yep those have been my thoughts all week but I'm having doubts now it's getting towards crunch time.
Can always sell if I don't like it but that's unnecessary hassle.
James, yes it is for one or two trackdays a month but will be a regular use car over the summer. I'm a bit of a fanny with my 964T so want something I can rack up the miles in and really get to know and enjoy it.
That rules a Caterham out unfortunately but 968CSs are still on the shortlist.
Molly - They really are that rare. I've been watching the classifieds since last summer but hunting properly since about November.
As said it's a case of balancing my budget between buying a carrera and improving my Turbo, so I've allocated £15k for the former. Maybe go another £2k.
Believe me if you can find a good one I'll have it.
Good ones sell within a couple of days. I'm up north so struggle to get to them. If they don't go pretty quickly I think "Why not?"
Have a look for one every now and again if you're bored. It's that combination of C2, manual, coupe. Then if you find one is it a dog?
Rust is rife on these! As I'm sure you know.
Can always sell if I don't like it but that's unnecessary hassle.
James, yes it is for one or two trackdays a month but will be a regular use car over the summer. I'm a bit of a fanny with my 964T so want something I can rack up the miles in and really get to know and enjoy it.
That rules a Caterham out unfortunately but 968CSs are still on the shortlist.
Molly - They really are that rare. I've been watching the classifieds since last summer but hunting properly since about November.
As said it's a case of balancing my budget between buying a carrera and improving my Turbo, so I've allocated £15k for the former. Maybe go another £2k.
Believe me if you can find a good one I'll have it.
Good ones sell within a couple of days. I'm up north so struggle to get to them. If they don't go pretty quickly I think "Why not?"
Have a look for one every now and again if you're bored. It's that combination of C2, manual, coupe. Then if you find one is it a dog?
Rust is rife on these! As I'm sure you know.
Mark, sure the C4's do understeer, but then so do the C2, its certainly not a case of killing the drive though, just adapting your technique to go in a little slower and out a little quicker. Bigger ARB and geo helps of course.
As regards holding out for a C2, even a good car is likely to need some work doing before the new owner is 100% happy so I wouldnt get too hung up on that point, if a car comes along then understand what it needs, budget for it and get the work done. Unless its major work how long will it delay the project?
On a positive note you have been looking at possibly the quietest time of year, the next few months I would expect to see a few more cars reach the market. Happy hunting!
As regards holding out for a C2, even a good car is likely to need some work doing before the new owner is 100% happy so I wouldnt get too hung up on that point, if a car comes along then understand what it needs, budget for it and get the work done. Unless its major work how long will it delay the project?
On a positive note you have been looking at possibly the quietest time of year, the next few months I would expect to see a few more cars reach the market. Happy hunting!
Its not just the weight, 4wd's have much higher transmission losses than 2wd so are always slower except when the extra traction helps.
Personally I like the idea that no one wants anything other than C2 coupes, I would like a C4 as a road car, the noise of the 964 is a big attraction for me. We should have bought one rather than our 968 if I am being honest.
Personally I like the idea that no one wants anything other than C2 coupes, I would like a C4 as a road car, the noise of the 964 is a big attraction for me. We should have bought one rather than our 968 if I am being honest.
I tracked a 964C4 for nearly five years.....it did have Porsche sports suspension, AMD chip and tuning from Geoff Everett to give it 292bhp, revised geometry settings, (nothing trick, just played around with the camber and toe-in) and a strut brace. Good in the dry and great in the wet!!
Nick Faure complained at Goodwood that he struggled to catch me up in a 993......I remember he sidled upto me and said, "It's not standard, is it?"
Brakes? Just learn how to use them properly on track!! I only warped them all at once at Croft......
Car now in gentle retirement in Aberdeen some ten years on and still going string!
Go for it!
Nick Faure complained at Goodwood that he struggled to catch me up in a 993......I remember he sidled upto me and said, "It's not standard, is it?"
Brakes? Just learn how to use them properly on track!! I only warped them all at once at Croft......
Car now in gentle retirement in Aberdeen some ten years on and still going string!
Go for it!
MarkKo said:
Sorry 964 C4 is not a track toy,heavy AWD and tiny brakes not a good formula for a track car
Nonsense - I had a widebody 964 C4 - did a couple of trackdays at Oulton and never once had any issue with the brakes. This is in a car which is around 100kg heavier than a NB C4. It was running KW's with RS geo and I never experienced huge amounts of understeer either - maybe I wasn't trying hard enough. Granted a C4 isn't ideal for the purist but plenty of fun can be had.Pesty said:
sombody on here bought a C4 with the idea of C2ifying it. they reconed it was an easy job and said they would start a thread on the project.
didn;t hear any more about it.
That might have been me. The build thread is on Rennlist.didn;t hear any more about it.
My take is that if you can get the car cheap enough and can also source a G50 gearbox relatively cheaply and can either do mechanical work yourself or have access to cheap labour then it's worth buying with a view to converting to a C2 spec.
Different 4wd system I know but my 993c4 was fine on track & road & much, much better once we went aggressive with the geo.
I do have a sort of comparison as I drove it for a while with the front drive disconnected & i can honestly say it only felt much different in the really slow corners.
It's difficult to describe, it did almost feel front wheel drive when powering out of slow corners but not in a bad way (I love front wheel drive cars by the way), just ??????? I think I'd best describe it as making the car feel under powered as it was impossible to get the car to break traction & adjust the car on the throttle. This, combined with the weight transfer of an already rear biased car probably makes people "think" it's under steering when it may not be. Or maybe not....
Probably due to being 4wd & rear engined it just has so much traction.
Ruthlessly efficient I think I'd call it
People t
tter on about under steer in the 4wd variants, & I can't comment on the 964 but in the 993 they either don't know what they're on about or they haven't got the car set up right.
(I don't really know what I'm on about so I paid someone who did to change the way it was set up)
I do have a sort of comparison as I drove it for a while with the front drive disconnected & i can honestly say it only felt much different in the really slow corners.
It's difficult to describe, it did almost feel front wheel drive when powering out of slow corners but not in a bad way (I love front wheel drive cars by the way), just ??????? I think I'd best describe it as making the car feel under powered as it was impossible to get the car to break traction & adjust the car on the throttle. This, combined with the weight transfer of an already rear biased car probably makes people "think" it's under steering when it may not be. Or maybe not....
Probably due to being 4wd & rear engined it just has so much traction.
Ruthlessly efficient I think I'd call it
People t
tter on about under steer in the 4wd variants, & I can't comment on the 964 but in the 993 they either don't know what they're on about or they haven't got the car set up right.(I don't really know what I'm on about so I paid someone who did to change the way it was set up)
boxsey said:
From what I know of it, it was simply called the 911 carrera 4 lightweight. As you say, extremely rare, only 20 built, and not an official model!
Lads, that's funny, I've been digging out my old mags for C4 features this last week and have just read about that car (a silver one) the other night. Very impressive car. 1050KG!! but didn't use the standard 4wd system. It used a manually controlled one with the 2 big knobs on the dash and a low ratio box. Looks great.Thanks for your input Mark (and boxsey obviously).
James
Exiges were on my shortlist until just before Xmas when I went and sat in an elise. I just couldn't put up with that on a daily basis. Shame as I've said before, I know they're brilliant. This is right up my street, well apart from the miles. I keep flicking back to them in the classifieds but...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3565610.htm
ras
Yeah, that's what I'd be looking into, the roll bar etc. I know what you mean about more coming on the market too. Hard choice indeed..
NJH
That's interesting to hear. I was 50/50 on a 968CS and they are on my shortlist (which is 964, 968CS, maybe Exige but doubtful and 996C4S if I get sensible and forget trackdays).
I know the noise alone of a 964 will keep me occupied when I'm just commuting and that's what has swayed it.
I also know though, I could go out and find a mint 968CS easily and probably for a bit less than £15k, so they're still nagging away at me.
Andiroo
Hi Andy, yep but LHD. Have considered a left hooker but don't think I'd get upto speed too quickly in a one, although using it daily would help.
Some aspects appeal, such as they're meant to be better to drive as a LHD and the fact if I RS it over the years, it'll be closer to the drive of a real one.
Have you not found anything special yet then?
melv
Great contribution, cheers! Exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Especially as you know how to pedal one and now have the RS.
Warping all the discs at once is some achievement!
I'm no Walter Rohrl and think it would be years before I even got near a C4 or C2s capabilities on track.
Signal G
I think I stumbled on your thread the other night but can't find it now. Great project but more work than I could do I think. Whatever I buy will stay as it is apart from lightening, seats, cage, geo, etc.
Craig
Cheers for the views. The thoughts of you and Melv have almost got me back to saying yes. Well that and what I already thought, that for me a C4 would do fine. It's got my head done in.
Have you found anything you like then? I know you were off to look at Z4M coupes. My girlfriend loves those and would rather I got one. Compared to an old G reg 964 with mega miles they do look tempting but hopefully what I buy is a keeper and the joy of a 964 is it's never finished if you don't want it to be. So many options and ways you can build on them.
Anyway, thanks again lads.
I'm thinking now though that yes I'd be totally happy with the C4 and I'd enjoy getting it how I want but ultimately, if a C2 came up a few weeks later I'd think damn!
That's my answer there really but at £13k, literally no rust, the owner has had the sill covers off and everything, needs nothing, it's just so tempting.
Don't need the car until May really but happy to buy now and get it how I want by then.
Cheers.
I bought a C4 a couple of years ago with the precise intention of converting to a pseudo RS / track car. C4 was a 1989 rhd non-sunroof car, with recent top-end rebuild. Quite a lot of work has gone in to and it is not necessarily the cheapest route BUT as someone else has mentioned, if you can buy a C4 which is good structurally and mechanically for a decent discount then it can start to make sense albeit that you are of course restricting your re-sale market.
So far:
i). Ditched front diff
ii). Swapped C4 g/box for 964 RS with LSD
iii). 965 turbo uprights
iv). 964 RS ARB's
v). 964 RS spec front and rear monoballs
vi). 964 RS bushes
vii). RS engine mount and gearbox mount
viii). Later 964 RHD pedal set
ix). Fully welded cage install
x). Lightweight interior and carpet set
xi). Rear seats deleted; Recaro SPG's upfront.
xii). Bilstein PSS10 kit
xiii). Electric window, mirror and stereo delete.
A lot of the above you would do if you were building a track focused car regardless of whether it were a C4 or C2.
The best bargain C2 to RS I have ever seen sold here on PH 18 - 24 months ago. LHD C2 with all RS parts on it, right down to the lightweight glass and I think sold for mid-teens. Was bought by Jason from Nottingham area and I think that it then went back to Europe. Those kind of offers do not come up very often.
If you were to leave the C4 as a C4, listen to Melv he knows what the score is. Otherwise wait for a C2. One will turn up eventually.
So far:
i). Ditched front diff
ii). Swapped C4 g/box for 964 RS with LSD
iii). 965 turbo uprights
iv). 964 RS ARB's
v). 964 RS spec front and rear monoballs
vi). 964 RS bushes
vii). RS engine mount and gearbox mount
viii). Later 964 RHD pedal set
ix). Fully welded cage install
x). Lightweight interior and carpet set
xi). Rear seats deleted; Recaro SPG's upfront.
xii). Bilstein PSS10 kit
xiii). Electric window, mirror and stereo delete.
A lot of the above you would do if you were building a track focused car regardless of whether it were a C4 or C2.
The best bargain C2 to RS I have ever seen sold here on PH 18 - 24 months ago. LHD C2 with all RS parts on it, right down to the lightweight glass and I think sold for mid-teens. Was bought by Jason from Nottingham area and I think that it then went back to Europe. Those kind of offers do not come up very often.
If you were to leave the C4 as a C4, listen to Melv he knows what the score is. Otherwise wait for a C2. One will turn up eventually.
Jimmy Riviera said:
I bought a C4 a couple of years ago with the precise intention of converting to a pseudo RS / track car. C4 was a 1989 rhd non-sunroof car, with recent top-end rebuild. Quite a lot of work has gone in to and it is not necessarily the cheapest route BUT as someone else has mentioned, if you can buy a C4 which is good structurally and mechanically for a decent discount then it can start to make sense albeit that you are of course restricting your re-sale market.
So far:
i). Ditched front diff
ii). Swapped C4 g/box for 964 RS with LSD
iii). 965 turbo uprights
iv). 964 RS ARB's
v). 964 RS spec front and rear monoballs
vi). 964 RS bushes
vii). RS engine mount and gearbox mount
viii). Later 964 RHD pedal set
ix). Fully welded cage install
x). Lightweight interior and carpet set
xi). Rear seats deleted; Recaro SPG's upfront.
xii). Bilstein PSS10 kit
xiii). Electric window, mirror and stereo delete.
A lot of the above you would do if you were building a track focused car regardless of whether it were a C4 or C2.
The best bargain C2 to RS I have ever seen sold here on PH 18 - 24 months ago. LHD C2 with all RS parts on it, right down to the lightweight glass and I think sold for mid-teens. Was bought by Jason from Nottingham area and I think that it then went back to Europe. Those kind of offers do not come up very often.
If you were to leave the C4 as a C4, listen to Melv he knows what the score is. Otherwise wait for a C2. One will turn up eventually.
Impressive! As you say you'd have to do that to any Carrera really, 2 or 4. Those are the mods I'd be looking to do over (a lot of) time. I can't see myself ever getting round to removing the 4wd though, as there's so much involved, with the electrics/braking etc. So with that in mind I think I do need to wait. Lovely C4 this one I know of, it's proving hard to pass by. So far:
i). Ditched front diff
ii). Swapped C4 g/box for 964 RS with LSD
iii). 965 turbo uprights
iv). 964 RS ARB's
v). 964 RS spec front and rear monoballs
vi). 964 RS bushes
vii). RS engine mount and gearbox mount
viii). Later 964 RHD pedal set
ix). Fully welded cage install
x). Lightweight interior and carpet set
xi). Rear seats deleted; Recaro SPG's upfront.
xii). Bilstein PSS10 kit
xiii). Electric window, mirror and stereo delete.
A lot of the above you would do if you were building a track focused car regardless of whether it were a C4 or C2.
The best bargain C2 to RS I have ever seen sold here on PH 18 - 24 months ago. LHD C2 with all RS parts on it, right down to the lightweight glass and I think sold for mid-teens. Was bought by Jason from Nottingham area and I think that it then went back to Europe. Those kind of offers do not come up very often.
If you were to leave the C4 as a C4, listen to Melv he knows what the score is. Otherwise wait for a C2. One will turn up eventually.
melv said:
Marky.....I haven't got an RS... 
Aha! Always presumed it was an RS Melv. A click on your profile would have been wise. Lovely car!
freedman said:
That's the exact one I think freedman. Bit heavier than the mag said but still good. Was valued at £150k back then, not sure what it is now.This one looks fun and maybe is the sort of thing you're aiming at.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3036961.htm
Have to say that I didn't reckon my wide body C4 on track at all, but then again I didn't much like my 993C4S with aggressive suspension setup either. But then again, I'm a st driver as tracking my GT3 has shown in the past.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3036961.htm
Have to say that I didn't reckon my wide body C4 on track at all, but then again I didn't much like my 993C4S with aggressive suspension setup either. But then again, I'm a s
t driver as tracking my GT3 has shown in the past.Haha!
I'm no driving god either. I've always been quickish on the road, in cars and on bikes but when you get on track you realise what quick is eh!
That Gmund car is exactly what I'm after. I've been keeping an eye on it for a while. Way over budget though. Even if it was twenty it's too much for me but I would maybe stretch a bit for that and put off the respray on my Turbo for another year.
Carrera 2 with RS interior and tweaked suspension would keep me entertained for a long time before I felt the need to go any further.
I'm no driving god either. I've always been quickish on the road, in cars and on bikes but when you get on track you realise what quick is eh!
That Gmund car is exactly what I'm after. I've been keeping an eye on it for a while. Way over budget though. Even if it was twenty it's too much for me but I would maybe stretch a bit for that and put off the respray on my Turbo for another year.
Carrera 2 with RS interior and tweaked suspension would keep me entertained for a long time before I felt the need to go any further.
marky911 said:
Impressive! As you say you'd have to do that to any Carrera really, 2 or 4. Those are the mods I'd be looking to do over (a lot of) time. I can't see myself ever getting round to removing the 4wd though, as there's so much involved, with the electrics/braking etc. So with that in mind I think I do need to wait. Lovely C4 this one I know of, it's proving hard to pass by.
There isn't as much involved as you might suspect but yes, I do understand where you are coming from. Good luck with the search - sounds like you'll need to have the readies and be prepared to travel as soon as one appears.Cheers!
marky911 said:
Haha!
That Gmund car is exactly what I'm after. I've been keeping an eye on it for a while. Way over budget though. Even if it was twenty it's too much for me but I would maybe stretch a bit for that and put off the respray on my Turbo for another year.
But you could drive it home in the snow which you wouldn't want to try in an RS on Cup tyres..................think positive; do some man mathsThat Gmund car is exactly what I'm after. I've been keeping an eye on it for a while. Way over budget though. Even if it was twenty it's too much for me but I would maybe stretch a bit for that and put off the respray on my Turbo for another year.
marky911 said:
That Gmund car is exactly what I'm after. I've been keeping an eye on it for a while. Way over budget though. Even if it was twenty it's too much for me but I would maybe stretch a bit for that and put off the respray on my Turbo for another year.
I've always thought it was that lad's who did the build thread on rennlist? It was up for sale at around 16/17k then disapeared then came back on, then went & turns up at gmund for 25 grandGassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff