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Blue62
1,396 posts
21 months
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Phooey said: Yes. The 2WD GTS seems to be pretty desirable atm. I've seen quite a few mid-£60k cars disappear from the Porsche used site recently. Maybe some customers that were waiting for the 991 have had second thoughts and gone for a 6-12 month GTS instead?
I still think the 2WD GTS will stay the ultra-desirable model amongst the non-gt 997 range, therefore keeping prices pretty safe, until 2/3 year old 991's are busting out of the classifieds. Only time will tell, but my feeling is the 4WD GTS won't hold up as well. Not really an exact science is it? I own a GTS 2wd but can't see why it will hold better than the 4, I think you'll lose your pants on both at the moment judging by my conversations with a couple of dealers this week, but they're clearly reluctant to call a number at the moment, preferring to ask what I want, price to change will I finance (and how), anything but offer a number.
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Manks
Original Poster
5,018 posts
91 months
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Blue62 said: Not really an exact science is it? I own a GTS 2wd but can't see why it will hold better than the 4, I think you'll lose your pants on both at the moment judging by my conversations with a couple of dealers this week, but they're clearly reluctant to call a number at the moment, preferring to ask what I want, price to change will I finance (and how), anything but offer a number. I think Phooey is correct, if you must have a GTS the 2WD is the one to buy. But the only reason to choose a GTS over a 991 is the price.
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spareparts
3,939 posts
96 months
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As good as a 991 is, it is 100k for a good spec car.
In comparison, a GTS is 70k.
For 30k more, you would expect to get 'more' for your money.
The difficulty is that 30k is alot of money to pay for a 1st generation base 911 vs last iteration full spec 911. And as has been discussed ad nauseum, it is very debatable whether the differences are all positive. In this economy, and with the promise of much more to come by way of the 991Turbo and 991 GT3, many potential 911 buyers may choose to put the 30k saved towards the halo 991 models to come. The dilemma between GTS vs 991 is most acute to those for whom are in the market for a 911 NOW and 30k is an affordable but not insignificant amount.
Given the GTS is gradually becoming less available as newish cars, the poor economy may actually keep GTS values firmer as I suspect that many are looking at the 100k 991 price and thinking to themselves that it does not offer enough upside over a GTS given the 30k premium.
Within 24 months, I think the GTS vs 991S issue diminishes as the 991S collapses in value to circa 65k and the 991Turbo comes online just ahead of the GT3.
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J-P
2,488 posts
75 months
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spareparts said: As good as a 991 is, it is 100k for a good spec car.
In comparison, a GTS is 70k.
For 30k more, you would expect to get 'more' for your money.
The difficulty is that 30k is alot of money to pay for a 1st generation base 911 vs last iteration full spec 911. And as has been discussed ad nauseum, it is very debatable whether the differences are all positive. In this economy, and with the promise of much more to come by way of the 991Turbo and 991 GT3, many potential 911 buyers may choose to put the 30k saved towards the halo 991 models to come. The dilemma between GTS vs 991 is most acute to those for whom are in the market for a 911 NOW and 30k is an affordable but not insignificant amount.
Given the GTS is gradually becoming less available as newish cars, the poor economy may actually keep GTS values firmer as I suspect that many are looking at the 100k 991 price and thinking to themselves that it does not offer enough upside over a GTS given the 30k premium.
Within 24 months, I think the GTS vs 991S issue diminishes as the 991S collapses in value to circa 65k and the 991Turbo comes online just ahead of the GT3. That's precisely my thinking - I'd rather wait for a 991 GT3 or Turbo to see what they are like over chopping in mine for a 991S especially when steering feel, manual interaction and grippier seats are more important to me over outright pace, better engine noise and improved PDK.
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spareparts
3,939 posts
96 months
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J-P said: That's precisely my thinking - I'd rather wait for a 991 GT3 or Turbo to see what they are like over chopping in mine for a 991S especially when steering feel, manual interaction and grippier seats are more important to me over outright pace, better engine noise and improved PDK. Keep the GTS JP. The 991Turbo and GT3 are the ones Porsche will make special, and the 30k cost to change just isn't worth it based on the characteristics you deem important. Indeed, how often do you drive your GTS flat out to tell if your car is 0.1s slower to 62mph? (if using Launch Control or burning your clutch out...). As it is, I know the differences between a GTS and even a 7RS around a typical fast road is down to the driver.
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Raitzi
591 posts
81 months
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spareparts said: The 991Turbo and GT3 are the ones Porsche will make special That does not mean anything. Turbo and gt3 are special because most won't buy them.
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Phooey
6,102 posts
38 months
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Blue62 said: I own a GTS 2wd but can't see why it will hold better than the 4 From wanting/owning a GTS, and speaking to people who sell these cars, the 2WD is the sought after variant. You could argue it's because the 2WD is £5k cheaper today (used), but when already spending £65k.... whats another £5k? The biggest attraction of the previous 4WD models (C4S etc) was the wide body, many bought for this reason. It's a known fact that the 2WD Carrera C2S was the pick of the 911 'cooking' range. So when Porsche announced it was building a 2WD Carrera with wide-body etc, it got peoples attention. I wasn't impressed when Porsche announced they were then going to build a 4WD GTS. IMO they should of kept it 2WD.
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nsm3
1,854 posts
65 months
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J-P said: That's precisely my thinking - I'd rather wait for a 991 GT3 or Turbo to see what they are like over chopping in mine for a 991S especially when steering feel, manual interaction and grippier seats are more important to me over outright pace, better engine noise and improved PDK. Can't see a Turbo offering more steering feel (4wd), better manual interaction (will it even have stick shift) or grippier seats than a 991S - plenty more go though?
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Manks
Original Poster
5,018 posts
91 months
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nsm3 said: J-P said: That's precisely my thinking - I'd rather wait for a 991 GT3 or Turbo to see what they are like over chopping in mine for a 991S especially when steering feel, manual interaction and grippier seats are more important to me over outright pace, better engine noise and improved PDK. Can't see a Turbo offering more steering feel (4wd), better manual interaction (will it even have stick shift) or grippier seats than a 991S... It probably won't.
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Blue62
1,396 posts
21 months
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I would like to think that the 2wd GTS will hold its value better, I do agree that it is the GTS to go for, but any difference will be marginal. I got to spend half a day in a 991 and while the GTS remains a great car, the 991 has a breadth of abilities that the GTS can't match, it is a very desirable car and worth the step up in price IMHO. That said, I would only contemplate trading up now if the price to change was 'acceptable' and judging by my early exchanges with dealers I am beginning to doubt that it will be.
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J-P
2,488 posts
75 months
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nsm3 said: J-P said: That's precisely my thinking - I'd rather wait for a 991 GT3 or Turbo to see what they are like over chopping in mine for a 991S especially when steering feel, manual interaction and grippier seats are more important to me over outright pace, better engine noise and improved PDK. Can't see a Turbo offering more steering feel (4wd), better manual interaction (will it even have stick shift) or grippier seats than a 991S - plenty more go though? I think you're right - my point is that if I'm going to get a car because it's outright pace is better, has better PDK and (possibly) better engine noise, then I might as well get a turbo! If I decide I'd like something more hardcore, then I'd go the GT3 route. Not sure about the steering feel thing though. The advent of electric steering in the 911 may be beneficial for the 4WD versions.
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spareparts
3,939 posts
96 months
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J-P said: I think you're right - my point is that if I'm going to get a car because it's outright pace is better, has better PDK and (possibly) better engine noise, then I might as well get a turbo!
If I decide I'd like something more hardcore, then I'd go the GT3 route.
Not sure about the steering feel thing though. The advent of electric steering in the 911 may be beneficial for the 4WD versions. The new/current PTM 4wd system adopted by the 997.2 Turbo and GTS4 are a revolutionary step ahead of previous 911 4wd systems (including the 997.1) that relied on a viscous coupling. PTM actually enhances turn-in and responsiveness from the helm, whereas the old 4wd system just understeered and was blunt. PTM feels 2wd almost all the time, is seamless in metering out torque to the front wheels, and allows the standard rear LSD to work as it should. It will be interesting to see the new technology the 991Turbo brings, and how the GT3 will maximise the 991 chassis and iron out the early bugs.
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ZeroH
2,493 posts
58 months
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spareparts said: The new/current PTM 4wd system adopted by the 997.2 Turbo and GTS4 are a revolutionary step ahead of previous 911 4wd systems (including the 997.1) that relied on a viscous coupling. PTM actually enhances turn-in and responsiveness from the helm, whereas the old 4wd system just understeered and was blunt. PTM feels 2wd almost all the time, is seamless in metering out torque to the front wheels, and allows the standard rear LSD to work as it should.
It will be interesting to see the new technology the 991Turbo brings, and how the GT3 will maximise the 991 chassis and iron out the early bugs. In fact PTM was first introduced in the 997.1tt, and imo was actually a less satisfying solution and certainly less predicatable at the limit than the vc as it tied itself in knots trying to figure out which wheel to send traction to. PTM was refined for the 997.2tt and introduced for the first time to 997.2 4wd n/a models and was much better calibrated.
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J-P
2,488 posts
75 months
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spareparts said: J-P said: I think you're right - my point is that if I'm going to get a car because it's outright pace is better, has better PDK and (possibly) better engine noise, then I might as well get a turbo!
If I decide I'd like something more hardcore, then I'd go the GT3 route.
Not sure about the steering feel thing though. The advent of electric steering in the 911 may be beneficial for the 4WD versions. The new/current PTM 4wd system adopted by the 997.2 Turbo and GTS4 are a revolutionary step ahead of previous 911 4wd systems (including the 997.1) that relied on a viscous coupling. PTM actually enhances turn-in and responsiveness from the helm, whereas the old 4wd system just understeered and was blunt. PTM feels 2wd almost all the time, is seamless in metering out torque to the front wheels, and allows the standard rear LSD to work as it should. It will be interesting to see the new technology the 991Turbo brings, and how the GT3 will maximise the 991 chassis and iron out the early bugs. Agreed - I meant purely in terms of steering feel.
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J-P
2,488 posts
75 months
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spareparts said: J-P said: That's precisely my thinking - I'd rather wait for a 991 GT3 or Turbo to see what they are like over chopping in mine for a 991S especially when steering feel, manual interaction and grippier seats are more important to me over outright pace, better engine noise and improved PDK. Keep the GTS JP. The 991Turbo and GT3 are the ones Porsche will make special, and the 30k cost to change just isn't worth it based on the characteristics you deem important. Indeed, how often do you drive your GTS flat out to tell if your car is 0.1s slower to 62mph? (if using Launch Control or burning your clutch out...). As it is, I know the differences between a GTS and even a 7RS around a typical fast road is down to the driver. I won't change it SP, not for a 991 C2S at any rate. Nice video by the way - I've never been round the 'ring - not sure I want to really unless it was an organised track day.
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Manks
Original Poster
5,018 posts
91 months
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J-P said: I think you're right - my point is that if I'm going to get a car because it's outright pace is better, has better PDK and (possibly) better engine noise, then I might as well get a turbo! Well if its anything like the 997 Turbo the engine noise won't be better. It appears that the Turbo is aimed at a differfent sort of buyer from the Carreras; a buyer who is less likely to demand grippy seats, rorty engine noise and a manual shift. By the way, its not just the pace that is better about the 991. There are plenty of other reasons that the car is better, all of which have already been mentioned so I won't rehearse them again. But then I know I am preaching to the converted J-P, and if you could get out your GTS without being financially shafted you'd be speccing up a 991 straight away. 
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spareparts
3,939 posts
96 months
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Let's put 30k into context. Given that 30k buys a nice Boxster or Cayman plus change, or even a 996TT, I actually think the 991S does not offer enough upside over a GTS to justify the 30k+ premium. I would rather a GTS + convertible or tracktoy or 996TT instead of a vanilla first generation 991, and that is before even talking about the bigger financial hit a 991S will take over an equivalent 3 year period. 991S: overpriced and underwhelming compared to the alternatives. Even an R8 V10 is an arguably more enticing prospect. Market seems to agree: 991s are not flying out the dealers, so Manks efforts to big'em up clearly isn't working We are all Porsche fans here (I presume), so we desperately WANT to love and justify the 991, but sadly it just does not add up at the moment. A 991 at 70k is a good buy, just not at 100k. All IMHO.
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J-P
2,488 posts
75 months
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Manks said: J-P said: I think you're right - my point is that if I'm going to get a car because it's outright pace is better, has better PDK and (possibly) better engine noise, then I might as well get a turbo! Well if its anything like the 997 Turbo the engine noise won't be better. It appears that the Turbo is aimed at a differfent sort of buyer from the Carreras; a buyer who is less likely to demand grippy seats, rorty engine noise and a manual shift. By the way, its not just the pace that is better about the 991. There are plenty of other reasons that the car is better, all of which have already been mentioned so I won't rehearse them again. But then I know I am preaching to the converted J-P, and if you could get out your GTS without being financially shafted you'd be speccing up a 991 straight away. God we're similar! We should really try and meet up one day! There's no doubt that the 991 is loads better than any 997 at certain things - being a GT car is one of those things and it's better in both objective and subjective terms as a GT - no argument. The astonishing thing about the 991 is that it's also a fantastic sports car and is undoubtedly superior to my beloved GTS objectively as a sports car! But subjectively, as a sports car for people that love driving there is a chink in its armour. These are: worse steering feel, crappy standard seats and a manual gearshift (that isn't an afterthought). These things don't matter to most people, in fact many people don't like alcantara but I love it - I think it looks cool, is nice to the touch and it's great at keeping your backside in place when you're pushing on. With respect to the Turbo, if they pump synthetic noise through the A pillars or speakers, then it may sound fantastic. The 991S is optimised for PDK anyway, so may as well get a PDK Turbo and the Turbo would be slightly less ridiculous with bucket seats, which I'd want. So cost wise I'd rather throw more money at a Turbo than get a 991S. I suspect that the car I'd really want is a 991 GT3 RS but only if it has a motorsport derived engine i.e. something that is based on an engine that Porsche uses for racing their 991 cup car, retains excellent feel and is still a bit raw, sounds incredible and revs to 8500RPM, handles superbly and delivers the improved cornering performance that the 991 platform allows owing to its wider track. Now you're talking! Interestingly, if somebody said to me right now, "you can have this new 991s with all of the things you want on it as a straight p/x for the GTS", I'm not sure I'd take it even though financially it would be mad not to. The thing is I don't want a GT, I want a sports car and one of the reasons why I like the GTS so much is it's steering feel. I think it's this more than anything that defines the car for me and makes it a pleasure to drive even at 20MPH. Once you start looking at cars as expensive as these 911s so obviously are, I believe you should focus on the areas where the car is subjectively better for you. In your case, Manks, you'd be crazy to have bought a GTS, you don't like alcantara, you couldn't see any real improvement over your own 997.1 and you were always keen on the new 991. In my case, I'd have been crazy not to buy a GTS, I like the alcantara, I felt it was a tangible improvement over a 997.2 and I wasn't that bothered about a 991, which I was concerned would have worse steering feel (it does) and be prohibitively expensive (and it is). Different strokes for different folks
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franki68
1,423 posts
90 months
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spareparts said: Let's put 30k into context. Given that 30k buys a nice Boxster or Cayman plus change, or even a 996TT, I actually think the 991S does not offer enough upside over a GTS to justify the 30k+ premium. I would rather a GTS + convertible or tracktoy or 996TT instead of a vanilla first generation 991, and that is before even talking about the bigger financial hit a 991S will take over an equivalent 3 year period. 991S: overpriced and underwhelming compared to the alternatives. Even an R8 V10 is an arguably more enticing prospect. Market seems to agree: 991s are not flying out the dealers, so Manks efforts to big'em up clearly isn't working We are all Porsche fans here (I presume), so we desperately WANT to love and justify the 991, but sadly it just does not add up at the moment. A 991 at 70k is a good buy, just not at 100k. All IMHO. It is a lot of money,but it is a noticably better car imo,and it is priced competitively against the aston v8 vantage and audi r8 ..its 2 main competitors.I don't think its the car itself that is not selling ,its the whole market,I see cars at this 70-100k level for sale for months and months at the moment.Sales of r8s ,gtr's,astonv8s are all down significantly.
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spareparts
3,939 posts
96 months
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J-P said: I suspect that the car I'd really want is a 991 GT3 RS but only if it has a motorsport derived engine i.e. something that is based on an engine that Porsche uses for racing their 991 cup car, retains excellent feel and is still a bit raw, sounds incredible and revs to 8500RPM, handles superbly and delivers the improved cornering performance that the 991 platform allows owing to its wider track. Now you're talking!
Interestingly, if somebody said to me right now, "you can have this new 991s with all of the things you want on it as a straight p/x for the GTS", I'm not sure I'd take it even though financially it would be mad not to. The thing is I don't want a GT, I want a sports car and one of the reasons why I like the GTS so much is it's steering feel. I think that sums it up  JP, do you have your LOI for the 991RS in yet? I think the 991RS will be a stunning car. At least I hope it will be!
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