Will the 996 GT3 pre-facelift ever be considered "special"?
Discussion
cragswinter said:
i get what you mean, but care to give any examples?
with the mk1 you are really talking a solid valve train (rather than hydraulic), an air filter, ABS setup and a MAP as being the only differences between the cars (excluding all the obvious and specifically race stuff). thats how close the cars were. if we look at the 997.1 since you mentioned it, and avoid anything thats contentious or anything that could even remotely be argued over, then you still have the brakes (350/350 steels instead of 380/350 steels), the diff, the sway bars, air intake and the wheel size. all of these were readily available as alternatives and each would have made the car more capable without any negative impact.
once you get into points that are open to debate, things start to list up pretty quickly still without getting towards the stuff that would begin to impact daily use.
with specific reference to your pick up points, the 997.1 GT3 and RS versions both used the exact same wheel carriers and sub frames (front and rear), the RS didnt get anything special regarding its pick up points. the 997 Cup was onto much improved wheel carriers and subframes by this point.
interestingly on the PASM debate, the 997 cup switched to cheaper non adjustable shocks. this makes the inclusion of active shocks even more confusing.
cragswinter said:
but you're saying that because it wasn't really anything like the then current 997 cup car it doesn't endear itself to you.
this was absolutely not what i was saying (though i do agree partially haha). i was saying that the later cars were put out for sale below what they were fully capable off achieving and all of this only as it relates to driving performance under regular intended use. margins and the fact that almost all new GT3 purchasers arent track drivers has seen the product develop over the years to maximise itself under these terms. anyways, we are way off topic on this now and with all due respect, im beginning to feel like we are moving in orbit. i appreciate that you dont (i assume) have service books and parts lists for most years of cup as well as those for the GT3s for reference, and probably havent broken as many bits and pieces as i have so are disadvantaged in terms of the topic but im not sure theres much more to be gained continuing to rotate around.
many thanks for expanding on it.
The 6.1GT3 was engineered at a time when engineers still had x86 pcs and were writing in DOS. Porsche couldn't produce anything faster than that at the time, and people did not know how to go much faster in a GT-type car that was to be run on the road+circuit. Porsche also had a very limited budget - even their last-of-the-line R-reg air-cooled 993s were suffering in terms of build quality in 1998, just before the 6.1GT3 was launched.
Fast forward 12 years, and guess what... Porsche have the advantage of supercomputers, modelling, much more technology, and VAG-sized budgets. This allows them to engineer go-faster cars on circuit in a way that Porsche can push the boundaries in the pursuit of speed (and reliability) in the face of ever more complex and detailed FIA rules. It also means they can engineer optimised cars that customers actually want for the road. If Porsche could SVA the RSR for the road, guess how many would buy it? Truthfully, not many. Do they want their A/C, PCM3, and iPod connectors? You bet.
So again, all this talk about how the 6.1GT3 is going to be fabled because it is so close to a road-going Cup car is just believing the hype imho. Biggest deterrent against ANY 996 including the 6GT3 is that it was a 996 with poor build quality and the least desirable looks of what is otherwise an aesthetic and legendary motor icon, the 911. That being said, it is a wonderful car to drive in its own right, and should be acknowledged as such for that.
Fast forward 12 years, and guess what... Porsche have the advantage of supercomputers, modelling, much more technology, and VAG-sized budgets. This allows them to engineer go-faster cars on circuit in a way that Porsche can push the boundaries in the pursuit of speed (and reliability) in the face of ever more complex and detailed FIA rules. It also means they can engineer optimised cars that customers actually want for the road. If Porsche could SVA the RSR for the road, guess how many would buy it? Truthfully, not many. Do they want their A/C, PCM3, and iPod connectors? You bet.
So again, all this talk about how the 6.1GT3 is going to be fabled because it is so close to a road-going Cup car is just believing the hype imho. Biggest deterrent against ANY 996 including the 6GT3 is that it was a 996 with poor build quality and the least desirable looks of what is otherwise an aesthetic and legendary motor icon, the 911. That being said, it is a wonderful car to drive in its own right, and should be acknowledged as such for that.
Yep, if you want a raw race car feel then the 996GT3 (any 996 Gt3) will do just fine. During the first season I raced a 2005 Cup car I needed to take my 996RS to the dealership for a MOT. It had been garaged for the year and I remember wondering how much of a dissapointment it would be a to drive it after the cup car. It took about a mile to realise that it was incredibly close to the cup car. It blew me away how good the car was and how close the experience was to driving the race car. It wasn't a 'they share the same the same DNA' type of similarity, it was more like 'christ its almost the same car with number plates on'. The only other porsches that i've driven that give a similar expereince are the 964RS and 993RS Club sports. The driving expeience of the 997 cup that I raced the next season just did not translate at all into the road going 997GT3's that I drove. They were so different by comparison. This was even more disapointing because the 997 Cup chasis was so capable that the driving experience was less frenetic that that of the 996Cup so if anything i'd expect the 997GT3 to be closer to the cup car.
My 996GT3 is so good, I can't imagine ever being parted with it. For me - just like all other 996GT3's - It bridges the gap between the road and the grid in a way that sadly i dont think any subsiquent GT3's will ever do.
My 996GT3 is so good, I can't imagine ever being parted with it. For me - just like all other 996GT3's - It bridges the gap between the road and the grid in a way that sadly i dont think any subsiquent GT3's will ever do.
spareparts said:
The 6.1GT3 was engineered at a time when engineers still had x86 pcs and were writing in DOS. Porsche couldn't produce anything faster than that at the time, and people did not know how to go much faster in a GT-type car that was to be run on the road+circuit. Porsche also had a very limited budget - even their last-of-the-line R-reg air-cooled 993s were suffering in terms of build quality in 1998, just before the 6.1GT3 was launched.
Fast forward 12 years, and guess what... Porsche have the advantage of supercomputers, modelling, much more technology, and VAG-sized budgets. This allows them to engineer go-faster cars on circuit in a way that Porsche can push the boundaries in the pursuit of speed (and reliability) in the face of ever more complex and detailed FIA rules. It also means they can engineer optimised cars that customers actually want for the road. If Porsche could SVA the RSR for the road, guess how many would buy it? Truthfully, not many. Do they want their A/C, PCM3, and iPod connectors? You bet.
So again, all this talk about how the 6.1GT3 is going to be fabled because it is so close to a road-going Cup car is just believing the hype imho. Biggest deterrent against ANY 996 including the 6GT3 is that it was a 996 with poor build quality and the least desirable looks of what is otherwise an aesthetic and legendary motor icon, the 911. That being said, it is a wonderful car to drive in its own right, and should be acknowledged as such for that.
Definitely some very good and interesting comments, good post. But hold on a sec. Limited budget, correct. Poor build quality I'm afraid is myth though. You should take a read at 'Porsche 996, The Essential Companion' by Adrian Streather for some facts on build quality and methods if you get time. Same as all the previous 911s. Smart money was saved by sharing parts with the 986, not poor build. ‘Least desirable looks’? I think it would be fair to say that’s opinion and taste. I think the 996 is a beautiful smooth, sleek 911 with subtle but well balanced curves. Fast forward 12 years, and guess what... Porsche have the advantage of supercomputers, modelling, much more technology, and VAG-sized budgets. This allows them to engineer go-faster cars on circuit in a way that Porsche can push the boundaries in the pursuit of speed (and reliability) in the face of ever more complex and detailed FIA rules. It also means they can engineer optimised cars that customers actually want for the road. If Porsche could SVA the RSR for the road, guess how many would buy it? Truthfully, not many. Do they want their A/C, PCM3, and iPod connectors? You bet.
So again, all this talk about how the 6.1GT3 is going to be fabled because it is so close to a road-going Cup car is just believing the hype imho. Biggest deterrent against ANY 996 including the 6GT3 is that it was a 996 with poor build quality and the least desirable looks of what is otherwise an aesthetic and legendary motor icon, the 911. That being said, it is a wonderful car to drive in its own right, and should be acknowledged as such for that.
SweetTorque said:
spareparts said:
The 6.1GT3 was engineered at a time when engineers still had x86 pcs and were writing in DOS. Porsche couldn't produce anything faster than that at the time, and people did not know how to go much faster in a GT-type car that was to be run on the road+circuit. Porsche also had a very limited budget - even their last-of-the-line R-reg air-cooled 993s were suffering in terms of build quality in 1998, just before the 6.1GT3 was launched.
Fast forward 12 years, and guess what... Porsche have the advantage of supercomputers, modelling, much more technology, and VAG-sized budgets. This allows them to engineer go-faster cars on circuit in a way that Porsche can push the boundaries in the pursuit of speed (and reliability) in the face of ever more complex and detailed FIA rules. It also means they can engineer optimised cars that customers actually want for the road. If Porsche could SVA the RSR for the road, guess how many would buy it? Truthfully, not many. Do they want their A/C, PCM3, and iPod connectors? You bet.
So again, all this talk about how the 6.1GT3 is going to be fabled because it is so close to a road-going Cup car is just believing the hype imho. Biggest deterrent against ANY 996 including the 6GT3 is that it was a 996 with poor build quality and the least desirable looks of what is otherwise an aesthetic and legendary motor icon, the 911. That being said, it is a wonderful car to drive in its own right, and should be acknowledged as such for that.
Definitely some very good and interesting comments, good post. But hold on a sec. Limited budget, correct. Poor build quality I'm afraid is myth though. You should take a read at 'Porsche 996, The Essential Companion' by Adrian Streather for some facts on build quality and methods if you get time. Same as all the previous 911s. Smart money was saved by sharing parts with the 986, not poor build. ‘Least desirable looks’? I think it would be fair to say that’s opinion and taste. I think the 996 is a beautiful smooth, sleek 911 with subtle but well balanced curves. Fast forward 12 years, and guess what... Porsche have the advantage of supercomputers, modelling, much more technology, and VAG-sized budgets. This allows them to engineer go-faster cars on circuit in a way that Porsche can push the boundaries in the pursuit of speed (and reliability) in the face of ever more complex and detailed FIA rules. It also means they can engineer optimised cars that customers actually want for the road. If Porsche could SVA the RSR for the road, guess how many would buy it? Truthfully, not many. Do they want their A/C, PCM3, and iPod connectors? You bet.
So again, all this talk about how the 6.1GT3 is going to be fabled because it is so close to a road-going Cup car is just believing the hype imho. Biggest deterrent against ANY 996 including the 6GT3 is that it was a 996 with poor build quality and the least desirable looks of what is otherwise an aesthetic and legendary motor icon, the 911. That being said, it is a wonderful car to drive in its own right, and should be acknowledged as such for that.
s_mcneil said:
The bench pic and this one look like M&M not europipe, didn't Manthey switch to M&M a few years ago?
Yes, Manthey stopped using Europipe several years ago and switched to a lesser quality manufacturer. Not sure if it was M&M though.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff