Will the 996 GT3 pre-facelift ever be considered "special"?

[caraddict]

agtlaw said:

Gary Bullen said:

GT3 mark 1. Total number of GT3`s officially imported into the UK 106 (28 of these being Clubsports). Total number of GT3`s worldwide 1,858 of which 308 were right hand drive. About 30% of all of the cars were Clubsport specification. The car was exported worldwide with the exception being North America. http://www.titanic.co.uk/GT3/GT32e.htm

Thanks for the production numbers. Approx 2000 cars made in total, it sure is a rare car!

[fioran0]

wfarrell said:

Personally, not sure the 996 mk1 GT3 will ever attain "special" status.

It's a car in a similar situation to the original 1986 BMW E30 M3 -- the early cars have always been overlooked in favour of the later, more sophisticated, faster E30 Evo's(esp. the Sport Evo)

The 996.1 is the (high) starting point in an incredible sequence of GT3s, each new variant raising the game. Don't get me wrong, the GT3 is an absolute (stonking) classic original, the best idea to come out of Porsche HQ for a long time, BUT it is objectively out-performed by it's newer more potent descendents.

How many mk1 GT3s give you the impression they have lived a hard life, or are now tired with a £35k engine rebuild waiting in the wings ? Also, the past 15 years has seen the rise of the UK/'ring track day scene. Out of the small 1999-2000 UK batch, many of the cars must've been exposed to hard use. Too few cars, too many track focussed enthusiast owners?

So, 996.1 GT3 - original, yes, modern classic, yes, special ? ...possibly, but not as special as later cars....

Hope some of this made sense ;-)

PS; love all GT3s :-)

thats an interesting perspective that in many ways contains arguments that could similarly be levied at any car defying normal laws and maintaining or increasing in status and/or value retrospoectively. no one can say how the world will view any car in the next 5,10,20 years but the presence of those concerns seems to be incidental to any status/following/perception let alone future market values.

the technical aspect relating to this perception of "special" is one thats of far more interest to me atleast. while the later cars do without question supply better stats and carry upgrades, just as one would expect, this imho tells far less than the full picture. its interesting to note that even as early as the 996.2 GT3 one can identify the creep of cost cutting/cost awareness and dilution being introduced, something thats increased with each subsequent model.
the overall capabilities have increased incrementally but importantly and tellingly begin to fall far short of what porsche could actually have and indeed were achieving with the platform. this is the crucial point.
the differences between a customer racing car (996 cup) and a mk1 GT3 of the same year is incredibly small (ignoring the obvious mandatory for racing items such as fire system, full cage, no interior etc) meaning the GT3 they chose to bring to the road user was very very close to the top of its game at that time. fast forward to the 996.2 GT3 (and even RS) and compare this to a 2004 996 Cup and already things have opened up tremendously. the list of parts on the Cup that are different to the road car is extensive and many of them could have been included on the GT3 if porsche had wanted to (as shown by the many folks adding them to their own cars which still see street useage). over and above this the 996.2 gets E-gas and a far more safety concerned ABS system. while the former varies in impact upon the driver (generally spreading out around the annoying category but definitely is not a positive thing) the latter is much less "fun" if you track your car or drive hard, both impinge upon the driving aspect of the car.
by the time of the 997 the gap is even larger still, a look around a 997 cup and a comparable year GT3 leaves you wondering if they are even the same car, while the GT3 sees a further addition of features that impact the drivers control and mechanical parts that arent up to the job of anything more than road use (cheap diffs for starters).
by the time of the 997, porsche had long stopped building cars for track users, though happily continued to sell cars based off the back of this perception and subsequent credibility. this wasnt, and isnt where the bulk of their new car sales come from. they arent in the business of making cars that grind and graunch and that see Porsche plummet down the satisfaction and reliability surveys. ive long known this, and actually had a chat with some folks from the mothership a few weeks ago about this very point where they were very open about it all.

this doesnt make the later cars crap and it certainly doesnt make the earlier cars superior but it does mean that there hasnt been since, and will never be again another road going porsche like the 996 GT3 mk1 and this makes it very special.

[Pugley]

Right its time to take the anorak off:-

Of course the MK1 996 GT3 is special. There were 106 imported of which 28 were Clubsports. The world total of RHD cars is 308.

The engine was derived from the winning La Mans car with a stronger gearbox. It is probably the last Porsche to ever have an accelerator cable and thus have a completely direct relationship between the right foot and the engine. (The Mk1s were all pre-registered to beat meddling Euro emissions regulations which meant the end of this arrangement.)

It has fully analogue low fat cholesterol free suspension with precisely zero electronic driver aids, enabling the driver to retain all that lovely feedback.

It is the car that the 996 should have been if it were not for the little matter of Porsche actually making a profit out of their production line.

The headlamps were designed (yes designed) to be aerodynamic and not just a styling throwback from earlier models. I really cant understand the mentality of those who wouldn't buy the car because of this?????.

It has an exhaust note to die for and maintenance is simplicity itself. Who could ask for more?

In years to come I'm sure they will appear on the antiques roadshow along with the odd Rembrandt or Stradivarius.

Yes of course I'm biased as I have one of the 15 red ones that is now completely pickled in Dinitrol to preserve it for future generations

If it were a house it would have to be grade 1 listed.

[cragswinter]

fioran0 said:

thats an interesting perspective that in many ways contains arguments that could similarly be levied at any car defying normal laws and maintaining or increasing in status and/or value retrospoectively. no one can say how the world will view any car in the next 5,10,20 years but the presence of those concerns seems to be incidental to any status/following/perception let alone future market values.

the technical aspect relating to this perception of "special" is one thats of far more interest to me atleast. while the later cars do without question supply better stats and carry upgrades, just as one would expect, this imho tells far less than the full picture. its interesting to note that even as early as the 996.2 GT3 one can identify the creep of cost cutting/cost awareness and dilution being introduced, something thats increased with each subsequent model.
the overall capabilities have increased incrementally but importantly and tellingly begin to fall far short of what porsche could actually have and indeed were achieving with the platform. this is the crucial point.
the differences between a customer racing car (996 cup) and a mk1 GT3 of the same year is incredibly small (ignoring the obvious mandatory for racing items such as fire system, full cage, no interior etc) meaning the GT3 they chose to bring to the road user was very very close to the top of its game at that time. fast forward to the 996.2 GT3 (and even RS) and compare this to a 2004 996 Cup and already things have opened up tremendously. the list of parts on the Cup that are different to the road car is extensive and many of them could have been included on the GT3 if porsche had wanted to (as shown by the many folks adding them to their own cars which still see street useage). over and above this the 996.2 gets E-gas and a far more safety concerned ABS system. while the former varies in impact upon the driver (generally spreading out around the annoying category but definitely is not a positive thing) the latter is much less "fun" if you track your car or drive hard, both impinge upon the driving aspect of the car.
by the time of the 997 the gap is even larger still, a look around a 997 cup and a comparable year GT3 leaves you wondering if they are even the same car, while the GT3 sees a further addition of features that impact the drivers control and mechanical parts that arent up to the job of anything more than road use (cheap diffs for starters).
by the time of the 997, porsche had long stopped building cars for track users, though happily continued to sell cars based off the back of this perception and subsequent credibility. this wasnt, and isnt where the bulk of their new car sales come from. they arent in the business of making cars that grind and graunch and that see Porsche plummet down the satisfaction and reliability surveys. ive long known this, and actually had a chat with some folks from the mothership a few weeks ago about this very point where they were very open about it all.

this doesnt make the later cars crap and it certainly doesnt make the earlier cars superior but it does mean that there hasnt been since, and will never be again another road going porsche like the 996 GT3 mk1 and this makes it very special.

Just playing devils advocate, but by that margin you could say that the later cup cars were so much better than their 99 versions.

[agtlaw]

Pugley said:

The engine was derived from the winning Le Mans car ...

that'll be the turbo-charged 3.2 which is hardly the same engine but the 3.6 996 GT3 engine is based on that. hans mezger, who retired in 1994, is often credited with the design.

[cragswinter]

Pugley said:

Of course the MK1 996 GT3 is special. There were 106 imported of which 28 were Clubsports. The world total of RHD cars is 308.

Well it's definatly rare

Pugley said:

The engine was derived from the winning La Mans car with a stronger gearbox. It is probably the last Porsche to ever have an accelerator cable and thus have a completely direct relationship between the right foot and the engine. (The Mk1s were all pre-registered to beat meddling Euro emissions regulations which meant the end of this arrangement.)

C'mon every iteration of the 911 is the "last 911 before they....."

Pugley said:

It has fully analogue low fat cholesterol free suspension with precisely zero electronic driver aids, enabling the driver to retain all that lovely feedback.

So crap drivers like me are slow as fk on wet trackdays!

Pugley said:

It is the car that the 996 should have been if it were not for the little matter of Porsche actually making a profit out of their production line.

100% agree

Pugley said:

The headlamps were designed (yes designed) to be aerodynamic and not just a styling throwback from earlier models. I really cant understand the mentality of those who wouldn't buy the car because of this?????.

But they're ugly, & a high proportion of people buy a car buyers buy because they love the looks of the car (yep it's subjective)

Pugley said:

It has an exhaust note to die for and maintenance is simplicity itself. Who could ask for more?

It is still afflicted by the usual poor 996 problems such as rads etc though

I think they're great drivers cars, just ugly.

I'm not sure what the argument is though, are they special? Yeah I think so but any more special than any other gt3? Not particulary.

[agtlaw]

cragswinter said:

Well it's definitely rare ...

just not nearly as rare as a 996 GT3 RS. 682 built, 140 RHD, 113 GB cars.

[cragswinter]

Pugley said:

MK1 996 GT3 is special. There were 106 imported

agtlaw said:

just not nearly as rare as a 996 GT3 RS. 113 GB cars.

Do you troll the intergrale forums quoting the same production stats thomo?

[fioran0]

cragswinter said:

Just playing devils advocate, but by that margin you could say that the later cup cars were so much better than their 99 versions.

im not sure what your point is but ill happily try and discuss if you clarify?
if i wasnt clear with my thoughts then i apologise. if i was to summarise my post, then perhaps the best way would be to say that while each new GT3 is better than its predecessor in performance, porsche also delivered each new GT3 further from its maximum potential than the version that preceded it, despite, via the customer racing program, their having both the knowledge and the parts to have achieved this with each.
the reasoning for this is very simple and makes perfect sense to both porsche and the majority of its customers, its only those of us in the enthusiastic minority that find it befuddling
With the Mk1 all the possible factors created a brief moment of serendipity. it was the only model in the GT3 lineup that was delivered as almost everything it possibly could be (according to the perceived notion of the GT3 lineup)

in direct response to your post however, the later 996 cups are significantly better than the early 996 cups, the 997 cup was an even more significant leap while the current 997 cup is a monster compared to that first 997 cup version that appeared in 2006.

Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 22 April 22:59

[mollytherocker]

gt3nor said:

mollytherocker said:

You seem to be saying that the 996 was purposely delayed due to the success of the 993?

Where did you get this information from?

MTR

Karl Ludvigsen, "Excellence was expected".

Thanks for that. I must read it!

MTR

[cragswinter]

fioran0 said:

im not sure what your point is but ill happily try and discuss if you clarify..........
in direct response to your post however, the later 996 cups are significantly better than the early 996 cups, the 997 cup was an even more significant leap while the current 997 cup is a monster compared to that first 997 cup version that appeared first

Err that kind of was my point I'm not trying to be facetious, but perhaps it isn't that the later gt3's are poor relations to the cup cars but that the cup cars have moved so far away from what would be acceptable or realistic in a road car?

I mean we don't slag off the latest Mclaren or Ferrari for not being close enough to their latest f1 car do we?

[tsantos]

We could discuss this subject for weeks... I am lucky enough to own one: parked at the ring and driven there whenever possible! I like it so much that after all these years decided to get the K400 from Manthey
Picking it up next Saturday!
As for the OP question I owned a 964RS and drove the Mk1 and Mk2 (and got passenger rides in 997's)... Still think the Mk1 is something VERY special! Not as raw the 964 (and thus much more usable) but to me it still keeps all the race car feeling.

[gt3nor]

mollytherocker said:

Thanks for that. I must read it!

MTR

Amazing book.
Better have some spare time available :-)

[NJH]

cragswinter said:

the cup cars have moved so far away from what would be acceptable or realistic in a road car?

Probably a subject and post for the motorsport part of the forum but one increasingly popular thing in tin top race cars is sequential shift, they have it in the clios, ginettas etc. its getting silly and they put it in these "feeder series" cars now because there is an expectation to move up to the next leve where every car has it. We already have race drivers that have probably never used a normal H pattern shifter on track. I thought racing was supposed to be a test bed for the road or to reflect the direction of road car technology. If it can't be put in a road car the tech shouldn't be in there IMHO, but its a question with wider context and implications that motorsports governing bodies clearly haven't addressed. They have allowed the sport at pretty much every level to continue to both get increasingly expensive and diverge ever more from road cars.

[GJB]

The fact that GT3's in various guises and model types are limited in numbers help the "special" status. Given time and fewer cars they will become more special. Also worth considering that by now they've done their money and a good one should hold its price and given a few more years will possible edge up in value.

The Mk1 996 to me was a better looking car and the Mk2 does look a bit strange with the plank style rear wing. The best package is the Mk1 style but with the various mk2 mechanical upgrades installed.

Zanzibar is a `marmite` colour but does work well on the Mk1 GT3 body.

[fioran0]

cragswinter said:

Err that kind of was my point I'm not trying to be facetious, but perhaps it isn't that the later gt3's are poor relations to the cup cars but that the cup cars have moved so far away from what would be acceptable or realistic in a road car?

I mean we don't slag off the latest Mclaren or Ferrari for not being close enough to their latest f1 car do we?

again i feel like i lacked sufficient specificity in my posting. the drawback of internet forums where posting is between strangers i suppose, whereby assumptions you take as a given arent by others.

in many respects the gap between the GT3 and the Cup is very much down to advancements in race technology and the increasing demands of the racing while it only having one purpose helps further and so indeed, direct comparison is absolutely unfair.
That being said, in certain equipment areas there are items where direct carry over to the GT3 could have taken place to the betterment of the street car but didnt.
to be very clear, im not talking about technology drip down but an actual and physical carry over of parts. it was these i was limiting my opinions to and my reason for suggesting that each later gt3 model has been delivered below its maximum potential despite boasting improved performance and capabilities.
its not that with each version the cars become worse, this would be patently untrue, simply that with the later versions, the car could have been even more capable (within its defined scope) but porsche held them back (for clear business reasons).

it was a long winded way to try and explain why the Mk1 GT3 is special. its clearly not the most capable GT3 nor the fastest but it is was made with a different set of values than the others and this comes out when you drive it.

Edited by fioran0 on Monday 23 April 12:53

[f1ten]

Im old school thought process is where i come from - when Formula 1 was using right hand normal manual gearsticks, it was more interesting. making 1000- 2000 gearchanges a race creates skill and driver error making more fun and opportunities. Now I realise F1 is too fast nowadays to go back but road cars should keep manual gearbox option. Im not an expert in using paddleshifts but I still think that the launch control systems cant really be used daily on the road without blowing a gearbox or getting plods attention, and therefore a standard blast off surely must get bogged down a bit. What im saying is without using launch control Im sure 70% of the time, a manual car can get off the lights faster, let alone its far more rewarding.

[cragswinter]

fioran0 said:

cragswinter said:

Err that kind of was my point I'm not trying to be facetious, but perhaps it isn't that the later gt3's are poor relations to the cup cars but that the cup cars have moved so far away from what would be acceptable or realistic in a road car?

I mean we don't slag off the latest Mclaren or Ferrari for not being close enough to their latest f1 car do we?

.........suggesting that each later gt3 model has been delivered below its maximum potential despite boasting improved performance and capabilities.
its not that with each version the cars become worse, this would be patently untrue, simply that with the later versions, the car could have been even more capable (within its defined scope) but porsche held them back (for clear business reasons)......

i get what you mean, but care to give any examples? as an example the forums are full of people who basically view the 997.1RS as something akin to a dealer special! iirc this car was built to homologate the new rear pick up points (i could be wrong?) & in my eyes is a very lovely thing. that it also includes stability control is a good thing in my eyes not to mention the fact that it looks superb, i could live with passive damping i grant you but they're hardly going to just graft on the complete cup spec kit are they? (plus i doubt the mk1 gt3 was that close to the 99 cup car but again i'm guessing, i could be wrong!)

but you're saying that because it wasn't really anything like the then current 997 cup car it doesn't endear itself to you. fair play & a good reason but my point was that maybe instead of concentrating how far behind the cup cars the later cars were by the same argument you could mark down the later cup cars for simply being too far advanced from their road car brethren.

as i said i'd be interested to here just how different the later cup cars are & in what areas you think they could have transferred the technology over to the road cars

[barchetta_boy]

As these cars get older the group who just want to own the "latest an greatest" sign off and they get bought by enthusiasts and collectors.

Both of these groups want to buy into the mythology as well as the technology and the fact that the 996 GT3 Mk1 is very close to Porsche's then-current 996 racing car, unlike the current model, is significant.

I guess this all started with the 356 Speedster...

[Pugley]

barchetta_boy said:

As these cars get older the group who just want to own the "latest an greatest" sign off and they get bought by enthusiasts and collectors.

Both of these groups want to buy into the mythology as well as the technology and the fact that the 996 GT3 Mk1 is very close to Porsche's then-current 996 racing car, unlike the current model, is significant.

I guess this all started with the 356 Speedster...

+1 This says it in a nutshell. Done!