Picking up a 991 today for a ten day test
Discussion
Some great comments here so i decided to check a couple of things out; I grabbed my Gen.1 RS for a bit of a comparison/
The Gen 1 RS is not a small car, but just about all modern cars are upsizing, and the slightly larger 991 is no exception. When you see a modern car from the majority of manufacturers these days, it make old cars seem small. As a kid, the Jag 3.8 was a big car...well.....
TIme to go out and play:
A commet was made by an earlier poster that you cannot see the two wings in the 991, unlike earlier cars. This is true. I tried to do a pic but did not have the gear with me. THese are not perfectly accurate but my experience is that you see the driver's side but not the passenger side.
However, after a fair number of miles I have adjusted and this is not such a big deal for me personally:
Whacking around in back roads is obviously fun in an RS, and a calmer affair in a 991 ( which is not the RS version)...yet, the 991 platform is just staggeringly stable and unruffleable, and gives you real confidence in the car. If this is the beginning of the new platform, I am looking forward to seeing what they can do with it. I am amazed at the sheer level of grip. Of course, the noise and generally mechanical feel of the non-stability control RS is quite a different animal. I just seem them as different cars for different audiences. I have grown to really like the 991 as a car I could drive every day and track now and them. It feels infinitely more current.
We are all products of our experience, and I understand the validity of liking a small package like the earlier and changing your own gears. Generation changes tend to bring out good discussions about what works and what does not. I very much count if very many people being a 991 have driven an original 911S for instance. The new platform is a aimed at a broader audience evidently, and we will have to wait and see when they do with the more pointy cars as the range evolves. I have not had the chance to try the 7 speed manual but my bet right now is that I will give it a miss. ......(of course, if the 991 RS is manual only,well........)
I have a little more to go to finish with this car, and this will try to summarize my impressions, which are no more or less valid than anyone else here of course. I do appreciate how much knowledge and experience there is around PH, and it makes any thread so much better when there is constructive disagreement
The Gen 1 RS is not a small car, but just about all modern cars are upsizing, and the slightly larger 991 is no exception. When you see a modern car from the majority of manufacturers these days, it make old cars seem small. As a kid, the Jag 3.8 was a big car...well.....
TIme to go out and play:
A commet was made by an earlier poster that you cannot see the two wings in the 991, unlike earlier cars. This is true. I tried to do a pic but did not have the gear with me. THese are not perfectly accurate but my experience is that you see the driver's side but not the passenger side.
However, after a fair number of miles I have adjusted and this is not such a big deal for me personally:
Whacking around in back roads is obviously fun in an RS, and a calmer affair in a 991 ( which is not the RS version)...yet, the 991 platform is just staggeringly stable and unruffleable, and gives you real confidence in the car. If this is the beginning of the new platform, I am looking forward to seeing what they can do with it. I am amazed at the sheer level of grip. Of course, the noise and generally mechanical feel of the non-stability control RS is quite a different animal. I just seem them as different cars for different audiences. I have grown to really like the 991 as a car I could drive every day and track now and them. It feels infinitely more current.
We are all products of our experience, and I understand the validity of liking a small package like the earlier and changing your own gears. Generation changes tend to bring out good discussions about what works and what does not. I very much count if very many people being a 991 have driven an original 911S for instance. The new platform is a aimed at a broader audience evidently, and we will have to wait and see when they do with the more pointy cars as the range evolves. I have not had the chance to try the 7 speed manual but my bet right now is that I will give it a miss. ......(of course, if the 991 RS is manual only,well........)
I have a little more to go to finish with this car, and this will try to summarize my impressions, which are no more or less valid than anyone else here of course. I do appreciate how much knowledge and experience there is around PH, and it makes any thread so much better when there is constructive disagreement
The key is great, shaped and moulded to look like the silhouette of a 911. The seats are too narrow across the shoulders. pDK may be technically impressive but you do lose a significant part of the driving experience without a gear lever. Sport plus mode demands you use the (buttons rather than paddles on my car) and its too keen to change down. May make more sense on track. Who takes a £90k car on track?
Sounds epic. No PSE on this car. PCM 3 is nice. Touch screen, play music through your iPhone direct through Bluetooth. Bose is so much better here. It gets bad press generally, but you can't replicate the overall quality with aftermarket components- not in my 993 anyway and I've thrown a lot of cash at it.
Auto stop/start is frankly irritating. It may be nigh on instant but sat at a junction waiting to pull out its uncomfortable having the engine die. You can turn it off and I have.
The dial that would be the clock in a 993 houses a scrollable display which can include nav-map or a g-meter, which is surely a rip,off of that found on a Gtr? Novel, but ultimately a gimmick.
It's seriously fast. So fast that I'd question, really, why you would reasonably need or want more. I know some say you can never have enough power, but I disagree. It feels like you are holding a Catapault with the elastic drawn right back just waiting to release. Every time you do release you swiftly have to reign it in as you either rapidly run out of road or you realise if captured you will be deemed most naughty by those in authority.
Frankly other than the shape and the name this has nothing in common with a 993. You can't look over your shoulder and easily see what's coming as the pillar is massive and the rear window is further back. The leather feels thinner than in my 993.
More room in the back and the ride is way, way better than my car. The stiffer suspension mode is still too firm, like I thought it was in a 997s, serving to hump the secondary ride quality and make the car feel brittle.
I do like it, I'm lucky to have it over a bank holiday. I saw a polar 993, L reg peel past me at Tescos Purley Cross yesterday, don't know if that was anyone here.
In short you couldn't not like it or fail to be really impressed by it. I haven't got the money for one either. Personally I don't like PDK. I've tried it quite a few times in 911s now and in some other cars as well. I can see its a great auto. But it is still an auto. I'm surprised I don't really, achingly want a 991 though.
Sounds epic. No PSE on this car. PCM 3 is nice. Touch screen, play music through your iPhone direct through Bluetooth. Bose is so much better here. It gets bad press generally, but you can't replicate the overall quality with aftermarket components- not in my 993 anyway and I've thrown a lot of cash at it.
Auto stop/start is frankly irritating. It may be nigh on instant but sat at a junction waiting to pull out its uncomfortable having the engine die. You can turn it off and I have.
The dial that would be the clock in a 993 houses a scrollable display which can include nav-map or a g-meter, which is surely a rip,off of that found on a Gtr? Novel, but ultimately a gimmick.
It's seriously fast. So fast that I'd question, really, why you would reasonably need or want more. I know some say you can never have enough power, but I disagree. It feels like you are holding a Catapault with the elastic drawn right back just waiting to release. Every time you do release you swiftly have to reign it in as you either rapidly run out of road or you realise if captured you will be deemed most naughty by those in authority.
Frankly other than the shape and the name this has nothing in common with a 993. You can't look over your shoulder and easily see what's coming as the pillar is massive and the rear window is further back. The leather feels thinner than in my 993.
More room in the back and the ride is way, way better than my car. The stiffer suspension mode is still too firm, like I thought it was in a 997s, serving to hump the secondary ride quality and make the car feel brittle.
I do like it, I'm lucky to have it over a bank holiday. I saw a polar 993, L reg peel past me at Tescos Purley Cross yesterday, don't know if that was anyone here.
In short you couldn't not like it or fail to be really impressed by it. I haven't got the money for one either. Personally I don't like PDK. I've tried it quite a few times in 911s now and in some other cars as well. I can see its a great auto. But it is still an auto. I'm surprised I don't really, achingly want a 991 though.
This has been a very interesting thread and I really appreciate the way in which you are responding to the comments.
Obviously, life moves on, and the future is larger and more comfortable. I don't question for a moment that the 991 is a very fine car. The essence of my gripe, I suppose, is to what extent the immediacy of the experience, which has admittedly been eroded a bit through the years (and my earliest 911 experience was with the 911SC in the late 70's) is the defining characteristic of a 911, and whether this car still has finally gone too far in this respect, and were it not for the desire to retain the loyalty of existing 997 customers, would actually look quite a bit different and be branded as something else. My impression, and maybe this is a snap judgement, is that it has and it would.
Do you think, after a much longer immersion in the car, that there is still sufficient 911 character in it, or has the baby gone out with the bathwater?
Obviously, life moves on, and the future is larger and more comfortable. I don't question for a moment that the 991 is a very fine car. The essence of my gripe, I suppose, is to what extent the immediacy of the experience, which has admittedly been eroded a bit through the years (and my earliest 911 experience was with the 911SC in the late 70's) is the defining characteristic of a 911, and whether this car still has finally gone too far in this respect, and were it not for the desire to retain the loyalty of existing 997 customers, would actually look quite a bit different and be branded as something else. My impression, and maybe this is a snap judgement, is that it has and it would.
Do you think, after a much longer immersion in the car, that there is still sufficient 911 character in it, or has the baby gone out with the bathwater?
cardigankid said:
This has been a very interesting thread and I really appreciate the way in which you are responding to the comments.
Obviously, life moves on, and the future is larger and more comfortable. I don't question for a moment that the 991 is a very fine car. The essence of my gripe, I suppose, is to what extent the immediacy of the experience, which has admittedly been eroded a bit through the years (and my earliest 911 experience was with the 911SC in the late 70's) is the defining characteristic of a 911, and whether this car still has finally gone too far in this respect, and were it not for the desire to retain the loyalty of existing 997 customers, would actually look quite a bit different and be branded as something else. My impression, and maybe this is a snap judgement, is that it has and it would.
Do you think, after a much longer immersion in the car, that there is still sufficient 911 character in it, or has the baby gone out with the bathwater?
Well, you are at the heart of the matter in a way. I had a 911S in 1975 ( it was six years old) so have some memory of those days ( Including a heartstopping spin on a wet roadObviously, life moves on, and the future is larger and more comfortable. I don't question for a moment that the 991 is a very fine car. The essence of my gripe, I suppose, is to what extent the immediacy of the experience, which has admittedly been eroded a bit through the years (and my earliest 911 experience was with the 911SC in the late 70's) is the defining characteristic of a 911, and whether this car still has finally gone too far in this respect, and were it not for the desire to retain the loyalty of existing 997 customers, would actually look quite a bit different and be branded as something else. My impression, and maybe this is a snap judgement, is that it has and it would.
Do you think, after a much longer immersion in the car, that there is still sufficient 911 character in it, or has the baby gone out with the bathwater?
. I think the issue is low speed handling feedback. I have a very knowledgeable friend who told me that switching off the power assist on the steering works wonders, (You can't do it yourself but a friendly dealer can). Running hard with sport + on (minus the super hard suspension setting0 makes for a hugely competent sports car which feels like it is not scratching the surface of its limits. However, it does not handle like a traditional 911. I disagree with many of the reviews I have read that the handling has been neutralized.There is an element in concern on the steering, but I prefer to look at it as different rather than a liner extension of the 911. As you know, having tried the car, its bloody quick, stable as all get out in terms of cornering and braking, and very predictable. Clearly the older cars or stuff like the RS have a more immediate impact in the first five minute. the 991 is a car that I got to like more and more each day. I think the shape is actually one of the really good things about this car, its side profile the best since the 993.I think the 996/7 were very different animals from the 993 for example, and there were discussions for years about that change.
Perhaps the biggest question for me is what the next generation of customers want, because people like me ( I am 63) do not make the market. The real future of any manufacturer is to gain new customers as well as keeping as many existing ones as possible. I personally was surprised that the new car got a lot of attention when parked in the street.
I strongly believe that the days of the standard shift are numbered and this is fairly central to the experience. The people killing the stick shift are customers, not manufacturers. Car websites are important, but my sense that no manufacturer cold possible get volume today making only edgy, uncompromising, expensive, stick shift cars., Possible as a specialist only. One of the real warning signs was when Ferrari went to its (cleverly named) F1 shift. So the question is not whether Porsche has taken away the 911 edge, or whether customers want a different direction.
For me, there are compensations. I would not want an RS as my daily driver. Its possible to have to much feedback, and in the city where I live the road surfaces look like the Somme in 1916 in places, so driving in a line of traffic daily means you need your chiropractor and dentist on speed dial. Compared to driving an R8 manual, which feel almost delicate, my car felt tougher and brawnier.
The 991 is much more restrained in revealing its charms. It takes time to get to know it.
I could drive the 991 all day, every day, track it now and then, hit the highway for long trips and still be able to have fun on back roads. So,, effectively better grip, though less intuitive steering, and a sense of being a larger car nets to a seriously competent package to me. I have a few more things to do tomorrow and will try to summarize the positives and negatives based on my subjective take. I think we each take what we value for all of out previous experiences, so for instance, I went through a lot of adjustment to get used to the V10 M6, a controversial car to say the least, and yet, got to really enjoy it. Is it like an E39 M5?.nope.
Will I get rid of my current manual shift cars? - not a chance. But I am going to follow this 991 closely and see where they take it, especially the 991 RS. I have no worries about numbers - future cars will inevitably produce faster lap times than their ancestors - they always did. The 991 is interesting to me because its the foundation platform for the next ten years, most likely. The other limiter for me is the alternatives at the price point. I spent some serious time thrashing the R8 manual ( not the V10) and it didn't do it. The GT-R has no great appeal for me, not least because I dislike the styling. The 458 is too expensive for me. So, the 911 matters.
Iconic cars are tricky things, as there is always a balance between preserving the best of the past while accommodating the market of the present and future. - I will do some final stuff tomorrow ( its going to rain , Yay
....and then finish up.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well, my wife owns an SL and I have driven most of them. I think SL owners are almost a unique market all of themselves. I have a house in Scottsdale AZ and the place is full of them. The SL fulfils the role of a two seat fastish convertible tourer and does it well, but it has never had sporting pretensions in my experience, even the AMGs. Rare to see on on a track.The luxury aspect on the 991 is undeniable but it has not lost its raw ability either. Not sure who has the cash
..I suspect the demographics of buyers in the new economies such as China are very different. and these markets are crucial for any manufacturer.
cardigankid said:
Precisely.
I don't want to know that it comes alive and is incredibly quick when it is driven at its limit. I am never ever going to, nor am I remotely interested in, driving it anywhere near that. However, I want to feel that I am in a sports car even when I take it to the shops. I want an adrenaline rush, dead simple. Is that unreasonable? Otherwise I would be in an Audi or a BMW or even a Merc. Mercedes does some incredibly competent cars whic are very relaxing to drive. But they don't deliver adrenaline, none of them. Every 911 up to and including the 997 did. The 991 does not, and furthermore because of the entirely different view out of the damned thing, and the interior layout which they have transferred across, it makes me think I am driving a Panamera after about ten minutes. By that time I have actually forgotten I am in a 911! Boys, that is quite an achievement.
Sit in a 997 sports seat, look out over the dipping bonnet between the two projecting wings. There is only one place in the world you could be, and the excitement starts there. You WANT to press the accelerator pedal.
OK the 991 from the outside looks like a 997 with a large space monster stuffed inside it. It doesn't look that different from a 997 unless the two are side by side, but from the moment you get inside it is obviously a totally different and much bigger animal. I think Porsche have totally blown it, but then they did that with the Cayenne and made a fortune (which everybody used to say was to allow them to keep building the real sports cars. Hah! Now we know the truth) Good luck. I don't want one. If I want to waft around I will take my Jag.
On the question of transmissions, it is now pretty obvious that a good paddle shift is going to beat a manual in performance by any measure. I would still have a manual. There is also something lifeless about Porsche's PDK/paddleshift system, which smoothly effortlessly and luxuriously reduces the engine to some disconnected buzzy thing similar to a stereo fault. This boils my piss even more, so I had better sign off now.
I agree with Cardigankid.I don't want to know that it comes alive and is incredibly quick when it is driven at its limit. I am never ever going to, nor am I remotely interested in, driving it anywhere near that. However, I want to feel that I am in a sports car even when I take it to the shops. I want an adrenaline rush, dead simple. Is that unreasonable? Otherwise I would be in an Audi or a BMW or even a Merc. Mercedes does some incredibly competent cars whic are very relaxing to drive. But they don't deliver adrenaline, none of them. Every 911 up to and including the 997 did. The 991 does not, and furthermore because of the entirely different view out of the damned thing, and the interior layout which they have transferred across, it makes me think I am driving a Panamera after about ten minutes. By that time I have actually forgotten I am in a 911! Boys, that is quite an achievement.
Sit in a 997 sports seat, look out over the dipping bonnet between the two projecting wings. There is only one place in the world you could be, and the excitement starts there. You WANT to press the accelerator pedal.
OK the 991 from the outside looks like a 997 with a large space monster stuffed inside it. It doesn't look that different from a 997 unless the two are side by side, but from the moment you get inside it is obviously a totally different and much bigger animal. I think Porsche have totally blown it, but then they did that with the Cayenne and made a fortune (which everybody used to say was to allow them to keep building the real sports cars. Hah! Now we know the truth) Good luck. I don't want one. If I want to waft around I will take my Jag.
On the question of transmissions, it is now pretty obvious that a good paddle shift is going to beat a manual in performance by any measure. I would still have a manual. There is also something lifeless about Porsche's PDK/paddleshift system, which smoothly effortlessly and luxuriously reduces the engine to some disconnected buzzy thing similar to a stereo fault. This boils my piss even more, so I had better sign off now.
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 4th May 17:19
I've driven a 991 Carrera S manual & was disappointed. Lovely interior but the exhaust tone reflected a car which felt it was being held back by rubber bands. The acceleration did not match the 'singing exhaust'.
Manual gearbox for me anytime, as a brilliant PDK box would give me the impression I was driving a dodgem car. My 996 turbo is 8 years old and covered 18,000 miles from new .. a great sports car for occasional use on warm sunny days.
Dynamo69 said:
I agree with Cardigankid.
I've driven a 991 Carrera S manual & was disappointed. Lovely interior but the exhaust tone reflected a car which felt it was being held back by rubber bands. The acceleration did not match the 'singing exhaust'.
My 996 turbo is 8 years old and covered 18,000 miles from new .. a great sports car for occasional use on warm sunny days.
You're disappointed? I think this is the average comment from existing 911 owners that just resent the new model, just wait until after 3/ish years when others can then afford the car, I'm sure attitudes will change.I've driven a 991 Carrera S manual & was disappointed. Lovely interior but the exhaust tone reflected a car which felt it was being held back by rubber bands. The acceleration did not match the 'singing exhaust'.
My 996 turbo is 8 years old and covered 18,000 miles from new .. a great sports car for occasional use on warm sunny days.
Dynamo69 said:
I've driven a 991 Carrera S manual & was disappointed. Lovely interior but the exhaust tone reflected a car which felt it was being held back by rubber bands. The acceleration did not match the 'singing exhaust'.
Manual gearbox for me anytime, as a brilliant PDK box would give me the impression I was driving a dodgem car. My 996 turbo is 8 years old and covered 18,000 miles from new .. a great sports car for occasional use on warm sunny days.
the 991 S and the C2 both needs lots of revs (above 4k rpm) to really get to the power. once there, the power is pretty fantastic.Manual gearbox for me anytime, as a brilliant PDK box would give me the impression I was driving a dodgem car. My 996 turbo is 8 years old and covered 18,000 miles from new .. a great sports car for occasional use on warm sunny days.
In my view, the great irony about the new 991 (And most other new cars for that matter), is that whilst they get increasingly more capable in terms of every single performance measure, they are designed to appeal to a wider audience of incapable drivers who in reality do not need or can actually utilise their potential.
I see discussions on here about whether someone should spec Torque vectoring and/or dynamic engine mounts on their new Boxster 981, and wonder whether they actually understand what these systems do or if they could actually exploit them. I'm not sure many even know what PASM does on their cars!
There can be no doubt that the new 991 is an incredible piece of kit (No, I haven't driven one yet), but most of the views I am reading (Good and bad), all suggest that it continues the trend of removing the driver further from the process of driving.
And that is not what a 911 should be, in my view. But I accept that in theory, it sells more cars.
MTR
I see discussions on here about whether someone should spec Torque vectoring and/or dynamic engine mounts on their new Boxster 981, and wonder whether they actually understand what these systems do or if they could actually exploit them. I'm not sure many even know what PASM does on their cars!
There can be no doubt that the new 991 is an incredible piece of kit (No, I haven't driven one yet), but most of the views I am reading (Good and bad), all suggest that it continues the trend of removing the driver further from the process of driving.
And that is not what a 911 should be, in my view. But I accept that in theory, it sells more cars.
MTR
Most of 991 S acceleration magic is in PDK gearbox. With that car gets 0-60mph in well under 4s, but in manual it just manages 4.6s(insideline.com). Ok, talking about point this and that is stupid but because pdk gearbox, Cayman R with only 330 Hp is faster in 1/4mile than manual 991 S. (at least in insideline tests)
I do not for a moment think that any comment here is motivated by jealousy or envy as was mentioned and have learned a lot from the discussion. It is also helpful every time I jump into the car to think about the genuine positives and negatives mentioned in the thread. I have another 36 hours or so and will manage some more miles.
Edited by RDMcG on Monday 7th May 14:18
mollytherocker said:
In my view, the great irony about the new 991 (And most other new cars for that matter), is that whilst they get increasingly more capable in terms of every single performance measure, they are designed to appeal to a wider audience of incapable drivers who in reality do not need or can actually utilise their potential. MTR
I I fall into that category, I do not need a car like mine nor do I ever drive it like it should be, however it's a 'nice to have'.I also purchased a new Fiesta 1.6 Zetec at the same time as my 'S' and the Ford in reality is as much as I need.
Really enjoying reading your posts, great view from the RS driver's seat.
I loved sitting in the 991 but I think it is too big and too expensive. Not fast enough? Well I think you would be lucky to get her out of second gear without getting police attention.
It would not surprise me if the Turbo version was MP4-12C pace while being £50k cheaper. In that context Porsche have got it right.
I think there will be/is a sense of abandonment amongst the 30-40's crowd with kids, for which there is no logical replacement for the 911.
mollytherocker said:
I see discussions on here about whether someone should spec Torque vectoring and/or dynamic engine mounts on their new Boxster 981, and wonder whether they actually understand what these systems do or if they could actually exploit them. I'm not sure many even know what PASM does on their cars!
I would agree that very few of us understand what these systems do, never mind how to exploit them. Having tested a 991 with SC dynamic engine mounts, PASM active suspension, PDCC active anti-roll and possibly PTV torque vectoring, never mind the standard PSM stability management and traction control, I'm not sure how you are supposed to tell which bits are doing what!The ride and handling on very poor roads was very impressive though.
Geoff
I've driven a brand-new 991 cabrio PDK from Glasgow to Inverary and back. It felt more like a big Mercedes than a Porsche, in my opinion. The steering is lifeless, and the whole thing feels big, soft and unwieldy. It was pretty boring to drive.
OTOH, the current base model Cayman is fantastic, and goes round corners like a go-kart. Maybe the Cayman is the spiritual successor to the 911?
OTOH, the current base model Cayman is fantastic, and goes round corners like a go-kart. Maybe the Cayman is the spiritual successor to the 911?
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