Picking up a 991 today for a ten day test
Discussion
betternotbigger said:
Manks said:
I wasn't comparing my Gen 1 with the 991, that would have been ureasonable. I have driven the Gen 2s a fair bit, including the 4S I've got at the moment and it remains my opinion that the 991 outclasses them. A view shared, it appears, by most of the contributors here who have driven both cars at length and who have no axe to grind.
I also don't recall saying that I don't push my car very hard. Though I have had to run it in of course. I've driven several already run in 991s and I drove those pretty hard.
This is never going to end in agreement. Samantha Cameron outclasses Carla Bruni but I know who I'd rather shag.I also don't recall saying that I don't push my car very hard. Though I have had to run it in of course. I've driven several already run in 991s and I drove those pretty hard.
Manks said:
If Audi updates the auto box on the R8 I'll take another look. They'd also need to have a rethink of the interior, though, which is low-rent compared to the 991.
The facelift R8 coming late this year/early next is rumoured to have a proper dual clutch system. I had a manual R8 and agree that the r-tronic leaves a lot to be desired... although it's not too bad on track.Then in 2014 the new R8 comes out when the interior should be re-designed.
It has been a useful and in depth thread.
Certainly, why should Porsche soldier on with a basically flawed chassis when it has to compete with cars like the Audi R8, Nissan GTR and others where outright performance is the goal and no limitations are acceptable. Porsche should be among the fastest if not the fastest, and arguably needs to be to survive. It looks as if the 991 will achieve that.
From another perspective, Porsche has form here. The 1978 928 was a move away from a sports car to a GT where performance, arguably, was less important. It followed the departure of the E-Type and arrival of the XJ-S pursuing exactly the same market. Neither was as successful as it was hoped to have been, but maybe they were just ahead of their time.
What they have now produced is a car which does both. It is both an outstandingly capable GT and, if you push the correct buttons, have the desire and the necessary talent, potentially the fastest thing round the Nurburgring on four roadgoing wheels. Also it still looks like a 911.
It would be surprising, however, if a large number of us did not regret the passing of one of the most characterful and instantly exciting driver's cars in history, while at the same time worrying a little about the extent to which performance and handling is now a matter of electronic management.
Certainly, why should Porsche soldier on with a basically flawed chassis when it has to compete with cars like the Audi R8, Nissan GTR and others where outright performance is the goal and no limitations are acceptable. Porsche should be among the fastest if not the fastest, and arguably needs to be to survive. It looks as if the 991 will achieve that.
From another perspective, Porsche has form here. The 1978 928 was a move away from a sports car to a GT where performance, arguably, was less important. It followed the departure of the E-Type and arrival of the XJ-S pursuing exactly the same market. Neither was as successful as it was hoped to have been, but maybe they were just ahead of their time.
What they have now produced is a car which does both. It is both an outstandingly capable GT and, if you push the correct buttons, have the desire and the necessary talent, potentially the fastest thing round the Nurburgring on four roadgoing wheels. Also it still looks like a 911.
It would be surprising, however, if a large number of us did not regret the passing of one of the most characterful and instantly exciting driver's cars in history, while at the same time worrying a little about the extent to which performance and handling is now a matter of electronic management.
cardigankid said:
It has been a useful and in depth thread.
Certainly, why should Porsche soldier on with a basically flawed chassis when it has to compete with cars like the Audi R8, Nissan GTR and others where outright performance is the goal and no limitations are acceptable. Porsche should be among the fastest if not the fastest, and arguably needs to be to survive. It looks as if the 991 will achieve that.
From another perspective, Porsche has form here. The 1978 928 was a move away from a sports car to a GT where performance, arguably, was less important. It followed the departure of the E-Type and arrival of the XJ-S pursuing exactly the same market. Neither was as successful as it was hoped to have been, but maybe they were just ahead of their time.
What they have now produced is a car which does both. It is both an outstandingly capable GT and, if you push the correct buttons, have the desire and the necessary talent, potentially the fastest thing round the Nurburgring on four roadgoing wheels. Also it still looks like a 911.
It would be surprising, however, if a large number of us did not regret the passing of one of the most characterful and instantly exciting driver's cars in history, while at the same time worrying a little about the extent to which performance and handling is now a matter of electronic management.
Absolutely on the money.
Certainly, why should Porsche soldier on with a basically flawed chassis when it has to compete with cars like the Audi R8, Nissan GTR and others where outright performance is the goal and no limitations are acceptable. Porsche should be among the fastest if not the fastest, and arguably needs to be to survive. It looks as if the 991 will achieve that.
From another perspective, Porsche has form here. The 1978 928 was a move away from a sports car to a GT where performance, arguably, was less important. It followed the departure of the E-Type and arrival of the XJ-S pursuing exactly the same market. Neither was as successful as it was hoped to have been, but maybe they were just ahead of their time.
What they have now produced is a car which does both. It is both an outstandingly capable GT and, if you push the correct buttons, have the desire and the necessary talent, potentially the fastest thing round the Nurburgring on four roadgoing wheels. Also it still looks like a 911.
It would be surprising, however, if a large number of us did not regret the passing of one of the most characterful and instantly exciting driver's cars in history, while at the same time worrying a little about the extent to which performance and handling is now a matter of electronic management.
Absolutely on the money.
Manks said:
betternotbigger said:
....the more experienced 911 owners here (and I don't particularly count myself amongst them after a mere 5 years in Pork) derive a great deal of their satisfaction with the car from the effort made to overcome these challenges and unlock the unique magic of the 911.
That's a bit like only dating ugly women for the challenge of maintaining an erection and getting to like them for their personality.
Tony 1234 said:
Some good civil discussion on this thread, what we all have in common is we love 911's
Love's too strong a word for it, but I do like 'em.Weaving through traffic today in the white 997 C4S I found myself behind another one in red. It did look good. I must say the C4S is a pretty car and of all the 997s gives the 991 the closest run for its money in the looks stakes.
cardigankid said:
It has been a useful and in depth thread.
Certainly, why should Porsche soldier on with a basically flawed chassis when it has to compete with cars like the Audi R8, Nissan GTR and others where outright performance is the goal and no limitations are acceptable. Porsche should be among the fastest if not the fastest, and arguably needs to be to survive. It looks as if the 991 will achieve that.
From another perspective, Porsche has form here. The 1978 928 was a move away from a sports car to a GT where performance, arguably, was less important. It followed the departure of the E-Type and arrival of the XJ-S pursuing exactly the same market. Neither was as successful as it was hoped to have been, but maybe they were just ahead of their time.
What they have now produced is a car which does both. It is both an outstandingly capable GT and, if you push the correct buttons, have the desire and the necessary talent, potentially the fastest thing round the Nurburgring on four roadgoing wheels. Also it still looks like a 911.
It would be surprising, however, if a large number of us did not regret the passing of one of the most characterful and instantly exciting driver's cars in history, while at the same time worrying a little about the extent to which performance and handling is now a matter of electronic management.
Great post! Totally agree Certainly, why should Porsche soldier on with a basically flawed chassis when it has to compete with cars like the Audi R8, Nissan GTR and others where outright performance is the goal and no limitations are acceptable. Porsche should be among the fastest if not the fastest, and arguably needs to be to survive. It looks as if the 991 will achieve that.
From another perspective, Porsche has form here. The 1978 928 was a move away from a sports car to a GT where performance, arguably, was less important. It followed the departure of the E-Type and arrival of the XJ-S pursuing exactly the same market. Neither was as successful as it was hoped to have been, but maybe they were just ahead of their time.
What they have now produced is a car which does both. It is both an outstandingly capable GT and, if you push the correct buttons, have the desire and the necessary talent, potentially the fastest thing round the Nurburgring on four roadgoing wheels. Also it still looks like a 911.
It would be surprising, however, if a large number of us did not regret the passing of one of the most characterful and instantly exciting driver's cars in history, while at the same time worrying a little about the extent to which performance and handling is now a matter of electronic management.
On a different note, the GTR is a fantastic car but IMHO is not everyday useable, it's far too firm for crap UK roads at anything less than about 50mph (after which it's fine). And in my view a car that can't be enjoyed when driving slowly can't be used as a DD.
R8 only has two seats, so not an option for anybody who actually uses the rear seats in a 911 for carrying kids, although if you only need 2 seats then yes, it's a great option as a DD.
J-P said:
Great post! Totally agree
On a different note, the GTR is a fantastic car but IMHO is not everyday useable, it's far too firm for crap UK roads at anything less than about 50mph (after which it's fine). And in my view a car that can't be enjoyed when driving slowly can't be used as a DD.
R8 only has two seats, so not an option for anybody who actually uses the rear seats in a 911 for carrying kids, although if you only need 2 seats then yes, it's a great option as a DD.
I love the look of the GTR from all angles except head-on and if it weren't so damned HEAVY (and too firmly sprung) I'd be in there for my next purchase.On a different note, the GTR is a fantastic car but IMHO is not everyday useable, it's far too firm for crap UK roads at anything less than about 50mph (after which it's fine). And in my view a car that can't be enjoyed when driving slowly can't be used as a DD.
R8 only has two seats, so not an option for anybody who actually uses the rear seats in a 911 for carrying kids, although if you only need 2 seats then yes, it's a great option as a DD.
betternotbigger said:
I love the look of the GTR from all angles except head-on and if it weren't so damned HEAVY (and too firmly sprung) I'd be in there for my next purchase.
Exactly - can you imagine how much wear there would be on that beast after a day of track abuse? doesn't bear thinking about! I did consider one but post test thoughts were great, great car but naff ownership proposition for me - I'm not up for losing my licence!Returned the 991 earlier. Back in my 993. Feels like my fling with the gorgeous granddaughter is over and now I'm back in the saddle with a glamorous grandma. Over 500 miles and PDK makes more sense. When you are in traffic the auto mode is gold. Being critical of a car because of its epic talent, calling it remote or detached seems churlish. Turning the pace up, the sound Porsche have got out of this car is amazing without PSE. Sounds great on start up as well.
Those who own these are fortunate indeed.
Those who own these are fortunate indeed.
Having come late to the thread, one of things runnning through is the comparison of the 991 C2S with GTS4, Torbos, GT3s and RS versions of the 997. All fair enough and obviously there are lovers of the 997 C2S Gen 1 and 2 in there as well.
As our OP has said, the basis for the next generation of Turbo and GTs will be this platform and expectations will run high. (and thanks for taking the time and trouble to post your experiences).
My point is to go back to what this car is - the new generation of C2S (and C2).
I've been fortunate enough to have started my 911 ownership with a new 964 back in 1990, followed by a 993, 996, 997.1 and 997.2pdk. All 2 wheel drive and NA. And now a 991 C2Spdk. I've been thinking about each time I've had the new car and my initial reaction then, and after a few years of ownership. And the answer is that each car was a significant step better than the last and in no way do I look back and think, I wish I'd stayed with that particular iteration. All had their faults and foibles, all were exemplary in their performance and reliability and I found all of them were more than quick enough for me on the public road.
After a couple of month's ownership of the 991 I am now more attuned to the car and becoming used to the foibles (stop/start, handbrake, trim reflections, seatbelt position) and more appreciative of the advances (pdk, sports exhaust,brakes, reduced tyre roar, and the improvement the increased front track makes to the handling).
To me it's a definite step forward, terrific fun on challenging roads,but more of an express on motorways and a PIAS in queuing traffic if you leave the stop start on.
If you don't think it's a more involved, grittier car than a GT3, you're right, but the 991 GT3 probably will be. Nor is it as fast and planted as a TT, same applies. What it is, is another clever clean sheet redrafting of the 911 concept, without losing the 911 core values.
Oh, and fwiw the steering is just fine, different, but fine.
As our OP has said, the basis for the next generation of Turbo and GTs will be this platform and expectations will run high. (and thanks for taking the time and trouble to post your experiences).
My point is to go back to what this car is - the new generation of C2S (and C2).
I've been fortunate enough to have started my 911 ownership with a new 964 back in 1990, followed by a 993, 996, 997.1 and 997.2pdk. All 2 wheel drive and NA. And now a 991 C2Spdk. I've been thinking about each time I've had the new car and my initial reaction then, and after a few years of ownership. And the answer is that each car was a significant step better than the last and in no way do I look back and think, I wish I'd stayed with that particular iteration. All had their faults and foibles, all were exemplary in their performance and reliability and I found all of them were more than quick enough for me on the public road.
After a couple of month's ownership of the 991 I am now more attuned to the car and becoming used to the foibles (stop/start, handbrake, trim reflections, seatbelt position) and more appreciative of the advances (pdk, sports exhaust,brakes, reduced tyre roar, and the improvement the increased front track makes to the handling).
To me it's a definite step forward, terrific fun on challenging roads,but more of an express on motorways and a PIAS in queuing traffic if you leave the stop start on.
If you don't think it's a more involved, grittier car than a GT3, you're right, but the 991 GT3 probably will be. Nor is it as fast and planted as a TT, same applies. What it is, is another clever clean sheet redrafting of the 911 concept, without losing the 911 core values.
Oh, and fwiw the steering is just fine, different, but fine.
Good thread with respect on both sides of the argument. I am close to swapping into a 991s from a GTS and it has genuinely helped me to think through my reasons, which when it comes to cars are largely emotional. From my own experience of driving both cars, there is much to reflect on in here and I am generally in agreement with the thrust of the argument, the GTS is more focussed and the 991 more accomplished, take your pick.
Here is a quick article I wrote about it for AutoWeek, the US magazine.....
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120517/CARREVIEW...
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120517/CARREVIEW...
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