Picking up a 991 today for a ten day test

Picking up a 991 today for a ten day test

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RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Friday 4th May 2012
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RDMcG said:
Work stopped play today and I had to take a one day trip to the US. Since Avis was all out of Zondas, and the weekend $49.95 Koenigssegg was already out, I rented a Chevy Equinox......more 991 over the weekendsmile
Serious drivers will want to know how the Chevy Equinox compares with the 991.

Well, for starters, I prefer the colour. It also has reversing camera and better cupholders. Take that, Porsche!!!.... (seriously, it has absolutely the worst seats I have tried in years with the lateral support of a shooting stick.............).








RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Friday 4th May 2012
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Manks said:
Looks like the weather in Tronner is about as joyous as it is here.
Philly, actually, and its filthy today.

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Friday 4th May 2012
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Manks said:
That vehicle looks horrific by the way.
It looks better than it drives, but I had a functional need to carry a few people; its quiet at least. It is about as far as possible from something I would buy at any price level. A strange thing..not an SUV, not a minivan, not a car really. More a room on wheels for moving people.

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Friday 4th May 2012
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adam85 said:
Cracking write up thank you! Weirdly the looks of the car and colour have grown on me as the photos keep coming.
Over the weekend will do a couple of back roads with the 991 and my own cars just for some side by side impressions. Obvious very different, but all great in their own wayssmile

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Friday 4th May 2012
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nsm3 said:
Maersk said:
Good god, how high are you sitting to see BOTH front wings.................!
Presactly - I pondered this yesterday, along with the BS about sunroofs robbing headroom.

I am a smidgen over 6ft and can only see the O/S wing, plus the leading/trailing edge (windscreen end) of the bonnet.

The sunroof limits my headroom to about 75mm, which I think is pretty cavernous?
Its a good observation though so I will try as best I can to photograph the driver's view from both cars....will post more pics Sunday.

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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Some great comments here so i decided to check a couple of things out; I grabbed my Gen.1 RS for a bit of a comparison/

The Gen 1 RS is not a small car, but just about all modern cars are upsizing, and the slightly larger 991 is no exception. When you see a modern car from the majority of manufacturers these days, it make old cars seem small. As a kid, the Jag 3.8 was a big car...well.....



TIme to go out and play:





A commet was made by an earlier poster that you cannot see the two wings in the 991, unlike earlier cars. This is true. I tried to do a pic but did not have the gear with me. THese are not perfectly accurate but my experience is that you see the driver's side but not the passenger side.
However, after a fair number of miles I have adjusted and this is not such a big deal for me personally:






Whacking around in back roads is obviously fun in an RS, and a calmer affair in a 991 ( which is not the RS version)...yet, the 991 platform is just staggeringly stable and unruffleable, and gives you real confidence in the car. If this is the beginning of the new platform, I am looking forward to seeing what they can do with it. I am amazed at the sheer level of grip. Of course, the noise and generally mechanical feel of the non-stability control RS is quite a different animal. I just seem them as different cars for different audiences. I have grown to really like the 991 as a car I could drive every day and track now and them. It feels infinitely more current.

We are all products of our experience, and I understand the validity of liking a small package like the earlier and changing your own gears. Generation changes tend to bring out good discussions about what works and what does not. I very much count if very many people being a 991 have driven an original 911S for instance. The new platform is a aimed at a broader audience evidently, and we will have to wait and see when they do with the more pointy cars as the range evolves. I have not had the chance to try the 7 speed manual but my bet right now is that I will give it a miss. ......(of course, if the 991 RS is manual only,well........)

I have a little more to go to finish with this car, and this will try to summarize my impressions, which are no more or less valid than anyone else here of course. I do appreciate how much knowledge and experience there is around PH, and it makes any thread so much better when there is constructive disagreementsmile








RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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cardigankid said:
This has been a very interesting thread and I really appreciate the way in which you are responding to the comments.

Obviously, life moves on, and the future is larger and more comfortable. I don't question for a moment that the 991 is a very fine car. The essence of my gripe, I suppose, is to what extent the immediacy of the experience, which has admittedly been eroded a bit through the years (and my earliest 911 experience was with the 911SC in the late 70's) is the defining characteristic of a 911, and whether this car still has finally gone too far in this respect, and were it not for the desire to retain the loyalty of existing 997 customers, would actually look quite a bit different and be branded as something else. My impression, and maybe this is a snap judgement, is that it has and it would.

Do you think, after a much longer immersion in the car, that there is still sufficient 911 character in it, or has the baby gone out with the bathwater?
Well, you are at the heart of the matter in a way. I had a 911S in 1975 ( it was six years old) so have some memory of those days ( Including a heartstopping spin on a wet roadsmile. I think the issue is low speed handling feedback. I have a very knowledgeable friend who told me that switching off the power assist on the steering works wonders, (You can't do it yourself but a friendly dealer can). Running hard with sport + on (minus the super hard suspension setting0 makes for a hugely competent sports car which feels like it is not scratching the surface of its limits. However, it does not handle like a traditional 911. I disagree with many of the reviews I have read that the handling has been neutralized.There is an element in concern on the steering, but I prefer to look at it as different rather than a liner extension of the 911. As you know, having tried the car, its bloody quick, stable as all get out in terms of cornering and braking, and very predictable. Clearly the older cars or stuff like the RS have a more immediate impact in the first five minute. the 991 is a car that I got to like more and more each day. I think the shape is actually one of the really good things about this car, its side profile the best since the 993.
I think the 996/7 were very different animals from the 993 for example, and there were discussions for years about that change.

Perhaps the biggest question for me is what the next generation of customers want, because people like me ( I am 63) do not make the market. The real future of any manufacturer is to gain new customers as well as keeping as many existing ones as possible. I personally was surprised that the new car got a lot of attention when parked in the street.

I strongly believe that the days of the standard shift are numbered and this is fairly central to the experience. The people killing the stick shift are customers, not manufacturers. Car websites are important, but my sense that no manufacturer cold possible get volume today making only edgy, uncompromising, expensive, stick shift cars., Possible as a specialist only. One of the real warning signs was when Ferrari went to its (cleverly named) F1 shift. So the question is not whether Porsche has taken away the 911 edge, or whether customers want a different direction.

For me, there are compensations. I would not want an RS as my daily driver. Its possible to have to much feedback, and in the city where I live the road surfaces look like the Somme in 1916 in places, so driving in a line of traffic daily means you need your chiropractor and dentist on speed dial. Compared to driving an R8 manual, which feel almost delicate, my car felt tougher and brawnier.

The 991 is much more restrained in revealing its charms. It takes time to get to know it.

I could drive the 991 all day, every day, track it now and then, hit the highway for long trips and still be able to have fun on back roads. So,, effectively better grip, though less intuitive steering, and a sense of being a larger car nets to a seriously competent package to me. I have a few more things to do tomorrow and will try to summarize the positives and negatives based on my subjective take. I think we each take what we value for all of out previous experiences, so for instance, I went through a lot of adjustment to get used to the V10 M6, a controversial car to say the least, and yet, got to really enjoy it. Is it like an E39 M5?.nope.

Will I get rid of my current manual shift cars? - not a chance. But I am going to follow this 991 closely and see where they take it, especially the 991 RS. I have no worries about numbers - future cars will inevitably produce faster lap times than their ancestors - they always did. The 991 is interesting to me because its the foundation platform for the next ten years, most likely. The other limiter for me is the alternatives at the price point. I spent some serious time thrashing the R8 manual ( not the V10) and it didn't do it. The GT-R has no great appeal for me, not least because I dislike the styling. The 458 is too expensive for me. So, the 911 matters.

Iconic cars are tricky things, as there is always a balance between preserving the best of the past while accommodating the market of the present and future. - I will do some final stuff tomorrow ( its going to rain , Yaysmile....and then finish up.


RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well, my wife owns an SL and I have driven most of them. I think SL owners are almost a unique market all of themselves. I have a house in Scottsdale AZ and the place is full of them. The SL fulfils the role of a two seat fastish convertible tourer and does it well, but it has never had sporting pretensions in my experience, even the AMGs. Rare to see on on a track.The luxury aspect on the 991 is undeniable but it has not lost its raw ability either.

Not sure who has the cashsmile..I suspect the demographics of buyers in the new economies such as China are very different. and these markets are crucial for any manufacturer.

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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I do not for a moment think that any comment here is motivated by jealousy or envy as was mentioned and have learned a lot from the discussion. It is also helpful every time I jump into the car to think about the genuine positives and negatives mentioned in the thread. I have another 36 hours or so and will manage some more miles.


Edited by RDMcG on Monday 7th May 14:18

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
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Well..time to say good bye to the 991...pulled it out this morning:



into a wet day..





I drove it in the wet several times, and it has superb grip, even on wet
bumpy roads. I tried gradually more aggressive braking on a fairly slippery stretch of empty road and it sure inspires confidence.

So, have the father ,Son and the Holy Ghost caught the last train to the coast, and has the 911 music died?......



My personal summary follows.


Edited by RDMcG on Tuesday 8th May 16:29

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
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I don't think so. I just think that its a different car for a different time.

Here is what I liked:

(1) Incredible cornering ability and grip. There is no way that an equivalent level 997 could come close, in my view. This whole package moves the game forward dynamically. I was talking this morning to a neighbour who owns a part of a race team and who has driven Porsches at the Sebring 12 hours. He has recently spent some time with a 991 at Road Atlanta and feels it has huge potential when the track versions arrive. If this is the first shot from the 991, its is very ,very quick. THe 997 would not be competitive long term with the new cars coming, (Supra,anyone?) - the new platform will allow substantial future development.

There is a view that numbers don't matter as much as feel. Not everyone goes to track to evaluate a car, and things like Ring times have an impact on many people who may never visit a track. If Porsche build mid pack car with great feel, purists would buy it, but the larger market would not, in my view. The 991 will spawn some astonishing cars, and its very impressive as it is. However, you have to push it to find to how good it is.

(2) I like the upgraded interior. There is a view that a high performance car should have an austere interior, and certainly my own Porsches do not exude luxury, but this does not get in the way. Much prefer the thicker steering wheel also. I assume that the interior for the more track focused cars will have a lot of delete options in any case. The nav system is outstanding,the Bose sound system competent rather than brilliant.

(3) Seat are wonderful, supportive, infinitely adjustable. Not track seats, not designed to be.

(4) I think the PDK is about the best DSG type box out there, ( No, have not tried the well-regarded Ferrari box). As someone who has had shift cars for a lifetime, this is razor sharp and amazingly quick. I will continue to keep my existing cars indefinitely and have fun with the 6 speeds, but my current bias is to buy a PDK if they offer it on an upcoming RS.

(5) Overall, the shape is a success, with a much nicer profile than the 997. Maybe not a perfect as the 993 aesthetically in my biased view, but really nice. The car looks a bit clumsy from a rear three quarter view, however. I was surprised how many people commented on it favourably, and even more surprised that the colour was a big hit. Rear and mid engined cars have a huge advantage with the EU safety regulations about the height of the front over the top of the engine, that is producing cars I find ugly, ( frightful new SL, Panamera, a host of block nosed cars such as Jags,square fronted BMWs and so on. )

(6) Braking ( standard S brakes) continues Porsche's tradition of truly excellent braking.

(7) Wet handling is very good...found some wet country roads and tried gradually more aggressive braking and cornering - the thing is rock solid and predictable.


The concerns:

(8) OK - the steering is not as utterly perfect as it used to be. At low speeds particularly it seems to be fairly dead, but light. However, at the end of a fairly extensive set of runs in multiple conditions, in my view it is nowhere near as bad as some people have written. If you had never driven a 911 you would likely very happy with it. That being said, there is some work to be done before the track focused cars show up.

(9) It is a car that does not transmit an immediate personality when you first drive it. It takes time to get the best out of it, and then I started to really like it a lot.

(10)The rest of my negatives are more minor:

- as a poster mentioned here you do not see the passenger side wing , so the traditional 911 being able to use the edges of the car is no long there. .Would have been nice to keep it, but in practical terms it is not a big adjustment.

- minor quibbles...silly cupholders, windshield reflections, not sure about the exhaust note when using sport plus. There is no perfect car and we each have specific preferences.


What I would like to see on the RS version ( all the lightweight stuff and interior presumably will be done automatically):

- I might think of a manual if its not the 7 speed, but a traditional 6 speed rather than a variant of the PDK architecture. Otherwise the PDK.

- Steering obviously improved

- a high revving, dry sump engine now that the Mezger has left us, maybe no DFI.


Where does it fit?...It it an SL competitor,a Panamera Coupe , to use some of the discussions above.?.. As I have a mixed garage with cars ranging from a Smart to the Porsches, I would say that it is a superior chassis to any of them, certainly not anything like an SL. As mentioned, I love the handling. However it is not the slow-in,fast out,ready for oversteer car of the past. Many people have commented on PH threads about the fact that the more mid-engined Cayman handled better than the 997, so I think we sometimes apply retroactive status to the car of the pastsmile.( I have tried the Cayman S on track). You could track this car as is and have a great time.

For me, competition is the R8 personally.
.
As mentioned, this is one man's view, and I think there have been very well stated views to the contrary. I was impressed. Its a dual personality car that can take anything you can throw at it. I started as a sceptic, ended as an enthusiast. Thanks for all of the civil and constructive viewpoints!...

' Nuff said. I'm going out for a drive.



RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
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Ady128 said:
I'm a nearly 991 Cab owner.I was going to have white but already have a white 2.9 Boxster and I'm struggling keeping the plastic stone chip guards clean and turning yellow. And as I object to paying for metallic I'm having my 1st 911 in Guards Red. I nearly had the Sport Design steering wheel but preferred the multi function one. PDK of course, heated seats and telephone module. It'll do for me. Happy days.
Congrats and best of luck with it. The best colour of a 991 I have seen was white with black wheels, which was superb, ( had no camera with me. I find that the Porsche stone guards do yellow and I have always replaced them with VentureShield, which does not. My white RS has had this done and there is no yellowing.

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
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Manks said:
RDMcG said:
For me, competition is the R8 personally.

Thanks for your review RDMcG.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, however I took an R8 out for a test drive yesterday and was utterly amazed at how apalling the R-Tronic gearbox is. The PDK 991 would run circles round it whilst it was deciding which gear to clunk into next.

Personally, I have no interest in manual boxes anymore. If Audi updates the auto box on the R8 I'll take another look. They'd also need to have a rethink of the interior, though, which is low-rent compared to the 991.

So, on paper and probably on the track the R8 might well be competition for the 991. On the road and as a rounded package the 991 knocks it into a cocked hat.
I should have mentioned that its been a while since I drove the R8 and it was a manual V8. I drove it over the same roads and on the same day as my RS.1. My feeling was that it felt almost delicate with a featherlight clutch. I did not warm to it,but I mentioned here only bacause I think that's what will be cross shopped. Its actually hard to know....Maserati manybe? At the price point I am just not really sure.
Thanks for your comments and also your earlier observationssmile

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
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GuillaumeB said:
Manks said:
Thanks for your review RDMcG.

I agree with pretty much everything you said
+1

Very good review indeed. I must confess to being a big fan of the Lime Gold too! Not too sure I would have the balls to spec it though.
If you like it ,go for itsmile. I bought a green RS when nobody specced them new. Now people want them. I think its a safe choicesmile

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Tuesday 8th May 2012
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Wudee said:
Fantastic thread. I am new to PH and joined to read about the new 991 before taking the plunge. Clearly two camps here. I looked at 997 in the past and decided not to as i found the interior pre-historic and the drive bit tricky and not in control. Accept that a longer drive would have possibly given me comfort with the 997. Ended up buying M3 E92 with screaming v8. Loved it, great engine, superb build quality. The 991 gives me what i was missing with the 997, better interior and relexed drive till you push it. The car is seriously quick, i mean 12 sec quarter mile for 991 s is impressive. Maybe time to sign the order form.

W
I have owned and driven lots of BMWs _ great cars. Still,my experience with Porsches across the board has just kicked things up a level. At least where I live there is a very strong community around Porsches which really adds to the ownership experience.

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Wednesday 9th May 2012
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The variety of views of this thread added much more than any view I could have contributed, and I agree with those who said that there is no right answer. It is always so.

We all have our own experience,bias,and tastes, and also different functional needs. It is always interesting to see the collected experience of PH'rs, many of whom have more or different experience than mine. I will hang onto my 997s permanently , not because they are the ultimate Porsches, but because they have given me so much pleasure and continue to do so.

Technology always advances, and I have no doubt that something else will show up to accompany them as the auto world advances. I have a sneaky feeling it will be a 991 RS. However, that's just my angle. Others will choose a GTR, or a 991 Turbo, or whatever car that connects functionally, aesthetically and emotionally, and those choices are just as appropriate as mine. Still, a couple of years will pass, and who knows what will show up.

For me, the best looking car in years is the Acura NSX concept car. It will price well beyond what I want to pay, but you never know what the manufacturers will drop on us next. That's what makes the whole thing such a great hobby.

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Wednesday 9th May 2012
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cardigankid said:
It has been a useful and in depth thread.

Certainly, why should Porsche soldier on with a basically flawed chassis when it has to compete with cars like the Audi R8, Nissan GTR and others where outright performance is the goal and no limitations are acceptable. Porsche should be among the fastest if not the fastest, and arguably needs to be to survive. It looks as if the 991 will achieve that.

From another perspective, Porsche has form here. The 1978 928 was a move away from a sports car to a GT where performance, arguably, was less important. It followed the departure of the E-Type and arrival of the XJ-S pursuing exactly the same market. Neither was as successful as it was hoped to have been, but maybe they were just ahead of their time.

What they have now produced is a car which does both. It is both an outstandingly capable GT and, if you push the correct buttons, have the desire and the necessary talent, potentially the fastest thing round the Nurburgring on four roadgoing wheels. Also it still looks like a 911.

It would be surprising, however, if a large number of us did not regret the passing of one of the most characterful and instantly exciting driver's cars in history, while at the same time worrying a little about the extent to which performance and handling is now a matter of electronic management.

Absolutely on the money.

RDMcG

Original Poster:

19,210 posts

208 months

Thursday 17th May 2012
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Here is a quick article I wrote about it for AutoWeek, the US magazine.....


http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120517/CARREVIEW...